To those that can't stop whining...

[Aamer Khan]

I give up. [:^)]

You guys won't be satisfied until everyone is as jaded and bitter as you. So be it.

I too am aware of the game play issues we all share. I have been pestering the hell out of devs about client issues, lag, fps, you name it. You don't want optimistic posts, you prefer gloom and doom. Your not happy unless you again for the 1000th time, outlined why TG sucks, and how its unforgivable that they have not implemented your ideas. ( since they would fix everything ) Shoot, half of you that complain the most don't even play.

Ok, I get it. Your mad as hell and ain't gonna take it anymore. I can't offset that alone, and since I'm just a sychopant cheerleader, my viewpoint means nothing anyway.

I leave the boards in your hands, but I will continue to post the reports when there are things to report.

[imported_Leannae]

since I'm just a sychopant cheerleader, my viewpoint means nothing anyway.

Every discussion, every debate has two sides of an argument. Both sides are valid, both sides have strong opinion. Refusing to speak out any longer only gives the opposition the win. Lead as many cheers as you feel you need to, but remember, this IS a community and there isn't a single community anywhere in the world where all people share the same views. [;)]

[Phillip]

there's no crying in cheerleading!!!!

[Seranthor]

Look Aamer, folks are not angry at YOU or your desire to try and make things better, however, YOUR opinion is not the only one valid, nor is mine, nor any othersingle opinion any more valid than that of someone else. Dont get me wrong, I too had an attitude much like yours long ago in hoping and praying that HZ lives up to its potential and always looking for the good in HZ. Who knows, maybe someday I will return to that viewpoint. But its not today and I fear it wont be tomorrow, took much has happened that shouldn't have, and not enough has happened that should have. Community is a wonderful thing IF all viewpoints are heard, not just the ones that support the status quo, or the ones that support the hard line of the authorities. Disention IS good, it ensures progress. IF everyone supported everything that the authorities wanted to do then there would be stagnation and no progress, only status quo. Dress up a pig in a dress and you still have a pig underneath, no way, no how will you ever find Nicole Kidman underneath no matter how hard you wish or dream.

[Machivelli]

Don't let them get to you. Easy to say, hard to do I know, but I find it so much easier to skip their posts here, or close down Market Drama when they start up with their Misery loves company crap. The people that complain will always complain, nothing that is done will ever stop them from complaining. Once you fully come to terms with that, the easier it is to tune them out. Yeah, I have my complaints, but the last thing I'm going to do is whine about it with the sole intent of making others disgruntled. Say what you have to say, get it off your chest and move on.

[Goriax]

I'm not sure what that means but I hope it doesn't mean you're backing off. We need someone around here with a positive outlook.

Whining and predicting doom and gloom is not unique to HZ. It comes with MMORPGs.

Here's an example of a quote I just copied off another board:

Yeah I noticed this too. The game is dying a slow death, most of the people who cared and shouted about fixing the core issues have long since quit so the boards are barren save for niggling complaints.

Want to guess what board I just now copied this from?















I copied this off the Races and Player Characters board of EQ2 just now. Not to say that all the posts there are whines, but there is a lot of whining.

Face it.On average, MMORPG players are not renowned for their ability to deal with less then perfection in a mature manner. I deal with users of the software I work on almostevery day and they handle legitimate problems in a much more mature fashion then you usually see on MMORPG boards even though the stakes are vastly higher. Every MMORPG I've played has had a huge number of whines and bugs; bugs and whines. It comes with the territory.

However, if you love the MMORPG genre you have to put up with the problems. Two of the problems of MMORPGs are:

1. since they are constantly in development, they will always have problems -- they're so big and complex and they never stay in one place long enough (i.e., a few years) to be really solid and bug free.
2. there are lots of whiny spoiled immature players and you have to deal with them sooner or later.

It appears to be part of the genre.

I agree that HZ tends to have worse technical issues then some other games and I've always suspected that it comes down to fewer people trying to do more with less money. HZ is trying to go in a slightly different direction then other games and they have a VERY small number of people to make that happen.That comes with aprice. I'm willing to put up with some warts in order to go in the direction HZ is going. Others may not be, games like EQ2 may be for them. But don't go to EQ2 or anywhere else and expect perfection.

When the posters get medown too much on these boards I try to back off and cool off and until I can again realize that kids will be kids. And yes, some of the problems ARE annoying. However, people better expect there to always beproblems because there will be. It would be nice (although I don't expect it anymore) if people were mature about it. However, the choice is to either play and put up with the bugs and whines, or to not play. There is no other choice.

[Kulamata]

I agree Goriax, but I feel there's a bit more to it. The technical issues are being addressed, albeit with very limited resources. It is very difficult to work on software that was not originally written inhouse. So I can live with those problems.

The direction of the game development is what is bothering me, and it has for a long time. Slowing the game down to keep the existing player base playing is something that I think has backfired horribly. The content addition has by no means offset the slowing. It took well over a year for AE/Tulga (and new ownership) to see the error of their ways vis a' vis dragons, but they did; that and added content has led to the first uptick in subs since the game was released.

So thus emboldened they start to revise crafting, nerfing as they go. How can one even think of resisting the need to point out the error of their ways?

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

I give up. [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-18.gif[/img]

You guys won't be satisfied until everyone is as jaded and bitter as you. So be it.

I too am aware of the game play issues we all share. I have been pestering the hell out of devs about client issues, lag, fps, you name it. You don't want optimistic posts, you prefer gloom and doom. Your not happy unless you again for the 1000th time, outlined why TG sucks, and how its unforgivable that they have not implemented your ideas. ( since they would fix everything ) Shoot, half of you that complain the most don't even play.

Ok, I get it. Your mad as hell and ain't gonna take it anymore. I can't offset that alone, and since I'm just a sychopant cheerleader, my viewpoint means nothing anyway.

I leave the boards in your hands, but I will continue to post the reports when there are things to report.

forum (1) a place of or meeting for public discussion. (2) a periodical etc. giving an opportunity for discussion. (3) a court or tribunal. (4) history a public square or market place in an ancient Roman city used for judicial and other business.

I just wanted to throw that up first, the definition of a "forum". To discuss something requires a conversation over apposing views, a comparison of alternative thinking, oran interplaybetween like minded people. Aamer, I know you care about the game - so do I.

Your original thread about communitybeing the"KEY" was totally derailed, I'll even admit I went off from your proposed topic. Idid that because your community thread was a follow up to two others: "Why people Leave" and Why people Stay". To me it was a continuation of the conversations within the other two threads. I don't think anyone is attacking you in any of those threads, they are just pointing out that you focused on onlyone of a few things that peoplehave stayed for. Within the afore mentioned threads there are many topicsworth discussing, youmade the decission that only one was "the key", meaning to me, that you felt it was the only one worth discussing.

I wasn't sure why you wanted to remind us all of what made the community so greatand the why's. Personally, I don't see a reason to expound on why the community is so great. On many other boards, its listed as: "something great" by those that hate the game and those that love it - that's known, there's nothing wrong with it.

A community is not formed or upheld by one person's attempt tooffset the "complainers" and "gloom and doomers". There's no need for a "sychopant cheerleader".Play the game, as you do.Contribute to players in conversations and interactions (in game and on the boards), as you do.Continue to create the herald reports, as you do. THAT'S what makes the community great, my friend.

It is not your job, my job or any other player/contributor to Horizons (inside and outside the game) to do anything but enjoy the game. We pay for a service, we pay to be "served". MMO's are designedto provide entertainment during FREE TIME (which we end up paying for -go figure). It's not a job, its supposed to be fun.

Now,when you have a vested interest (whether its money or your free time), youandevery single person playing this game has a right to voice their opinion; gripe about "bad service"; commend for "great service", etc. Personally, I'm verydisappointed with the client atm. I was lead to believe I would see dramatic improvements with the latest patch and it didn't happen. So that makes me frustrated - not "mad as hell" or bitter - just frustrated, and that comes through my posts lately. When it gets fixed, I'll be happy to offer praise for it.

I'm still playing as I can. I'm still paying for three accounts monthly. I'm still offering my opinions to the boards and throwing in my "two cents" when I surf the net. You should do all this as well.It doesn't matter if people don't agree with you, it doesn't matter if people don't listen or take something you said "to heart". It matters if you don't do what you want to do.

Bulgrim

[HratLi]

Hehe... I hope the break from the boards gives you a chance to chill out and relax a bit[ip] again. You've been stressing a bit too much recently about what other people think, and maybe thinking about the game or about YOU specifically. To most of that I say "Bah! Who cares!". YOU are still enjoying the game, and as long as that continues you should play. If being on the boards and examining all the different aspects of why people play and maybe provide some insight to TG helps you enhance that sense of enjoyment do it, if it starts to frustrate you, as the Goddess Eris said in an Aspirin commercial, "Oh...then stop". :D

For me, I USED to be as frustrated as all the people who get worked up here about the game. I am a clasically trained Software Engineer, CMM, version control, documentation, and process have taken up most of my professional life. Hahaha... I am code OC so it would drive me CRAZY to see version control issues. Well... It's a GAME. I enjoy playing. I am accumulating virtual money, and virtual skills and having a pretty plot with my wife as my neighbour. It's fun, I'll keep playing as long as it remains so.

I stopped caring so much about the patching, the MarketPlace/Board drama because it would ruin my relax and grinding time. Things will happen slowly, the staff is small, bugs might or might never be fixed, but as long as it's still playable (within reason), I'll keep playing. That's what I've accepted, and so it helps me weather the crazy ups and downs. Crafting changes? I'll deal. Adventure Changes? I'll deal. For as long as I consider this fun I'll deal.
$13 a month per person for as much entertainment as I get out of the MMORPGs I play is a steal really.

BTW, I know a number of you with which I've already discussed this. Yeah, my expectations are low. I don't stress over it. I make tickets about bugs and problems like any responsible player. If one thing breaks, I'll do something else. I still stand by my words. Bitching to me or other players won't help anything any more than spamming the support desk, they KNOW some things are broken, they'll work on it, but realistically from past experience expecting night to turn to day in that one last issue is just a fantasy. Decide if it's worth souring your game time or not.

-HratLi and HratLi's player Tyme

[Tryagain]

what ?

did you want everyone to get together and give a groupd hug ? Plant a kiss on Bowman's forhead and go there there its going to be a ok.

Remember something here. This game and same company Tulga ended up in chapter 11. Why ? It didn't get there due to people complaining. So in the end the game has a lot to recover for a Tulga has a CRAP LOAD to prove to the MMO community. So yes where as nothing but constructive criticism would be nice the fact is in the past and still to this day it has proved not to motivate Tulga into action. Only uncomfortable situations have gotten anything done in this game. Not that doom and gloom doesn't indeed get old but you are asking people to have faith in the game and tulga therefore they need to stick it out SO THE GAME CAN CONTINUE TO EXIST. Yes thats right this is what you are asking because this game will die very quick should another even SMALL exodus happen. So recognize that people will do as you ask but they aren't always going to be peache's n' cream about it all nor should they its their money after all and their consumer/client right to make sure they get their money's worth. To each person that worth is different and there is no minimum line here.

Complaining will die down to a minimum once this game has reached a development standpoint which dictates it should. Cause yes very MMO suffers from it even ones like EQ 2 and WoW. But once you crunch the numbers you see as compared to over all population those games have an exceptionally low rate of complaining going on. Horizons is much higher and thats up to Tulga to fix.

So in the end its a long slow road for them. Due to their own actions they now have a very difficult road to travel. Keep the faith and they will get there. Falter once again like in the past and its over. Its that simple pretty much.

[oluviel]

there is no improvement if you don't allow criticism.

[Tryagain]

One other thing Aamer....

You have been here from the beginning. Is it not getting somewhat tiresome by now ?

Anyway I do have to admire the fact you stick to your guns. But perhaps this is coloring your objectivity ?

[Aamer Khan]

Constructive criticism is what's needed.

Hijacking every thread to AGAIN, for the 1000th time, tell us how AE or TG are Bowman screwed up, is not just worthless, but a concerted attempt to make others unhappy with the game.

Your talking about the first type right?

[Aamer Khan]

Grimlik, where does is say in my job description I am supposed to be objective in board posts?

[Tryagain]

yes but

you and everyone else is like an elephant. We all have extremely long memories and the human condition dictates that we remember.

Just because a simple name change happened after chapter 11 doesn't mean people are going to forget. Or maybe if someone kept their mouths shut these old wounds wouldn't be continually ripped open ;) .

Just an idea ;) and i wasn't talking about you.

[Tryagain]

Grimlik, where does is say in my job description I am supposed to be objective in board posts?

well you are asking for objectivity from everyone else. Whats that about the shoe fitting on the other foot.

Regardless this stuff happens in every MMO. The degree of it is based on game population and development of the game to date. Horizons is just about where it should be now in this regard. Improvement will come in time....

[Bori Grimbattle]

You began several open ended leading statements on open forums. Each of those topics were open to discussion by all that visit these forums. You can expect answers that will differ from your own views on the subject. To then state that those who have a view that is different then yours are only whining is doing them and yourself a great disservice. Not everyone will agree to be lead in the direction you wish.

In game complaining about the game and the game mechanics should be kept to a minimum if at all but here on the boards we are free to express our dissatisfaction just as you are allowed to express your satisfaction. Tulga can also benefit from these posts as they will be able to gauge what the primary areas of concern are.

After all, if everybody seen the world through rose colored glasses and never complain then they would all have to agree that everything is perfect with Horizons. Then what would get accomplished? You cannot get improvement in anything if you do not understand the flaws or defects.

[imported_Leannae]

A saying my mother told me many, many years come to mind here.

When ever you point 1 finger at someone, you point 3 back at yourself. Isn't that what you're doing by pointing the whining finger at people who disagreed or didn't see your point of view? At the risk of offending you, you'recomplaining about people whining and going about it IN a whine.

It's part of life, to disagree. I'm married to Bori and I'd say we have a good, stablerelationship, but we definately don't see eye to eye on many subjects. All you can do is stick to your convictions and do your best to get the other person to TRY and see your point of view.

It's all fine and well to believe it's the community that keeps people coming back, but do you remember High School? How many of your best buddies do you still keep in touch with? You could be the exception to the rule, but myself, even though I swore... PINKY SWORE we'd all stay friends, I haven't seen any of them in well over 20 years.

The point I'm trying to make here, and in the other threads is... If tomorrow the servers shut down, never to return, people won't sit idle for the rest of their lives because the community was gone, they'd move on.

So remember...

We're here for a good time, not a long time. So have a good time, the sun can't shine everyday. ~ Trooper [;)]

[Fireclaw]

Aamer you started 2 threads, one asking why people left and the other asking why people stayed. Spirited discussions formed in those threads as people did their best to respond.

Then you started a thread saying that based on the first 2 threads community was the key. In doing so you basically invited discussion from everyone who did or did not agree with your conclusion. Especially from people who contributed to the first two threads but who may not have agreed with the premise of your third thread that "community was key". Not surprisingly, your third thread devolved quickly into a discussion of the role of community and whether community really was the key. While this clearly surprised you, it was a predictable result of your third post.

I didn't get the impression that posters in any of these 3 threads hated the game and were purposely trying to bash it. Rather people were trying to have a constructive discussion analyzing where the game went wrong, what could be done about it, and what is likely to happen to the game in the future if the game proceeds on the course it is now.

[Khoal]

I give up. [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-18.gif[/img]

You guys won't be satisfied until everyone is as jaded and bitter as you. So be it.

I too am aware of the game play issues we all share. I have been pestering the hell out of devs about client issues, lag, fps, you name it. You don't want optimistic posts, you prefer gloom and doom. Your not happy unless you again for the 1000th time, outlined why TG sucks, and how its unforgivable that they have not implemented your ideas. ( since they would fix everything ) Shoot, half of you that complain the most don't even play.

Ok, I get it. Your mad as hell and ain't gonna take it anymore. I can't offset that alone, and since I'm just a sychopant cheerleader, my viewpoint means nothing anyway.

I leave the boards in your hands, but I will continue to post the reports when there are things to report.

A rant. Wrong forum.