Community and Cooperation

[Aamer Khan]

Disclaimer: All comments made in this post, refer to the experiences of one player on the Chaos shard, and in no way reflect every chaos players views.

An interesting comment was made by Nathan Knaack over at MMORPG.com in an article about how to make permadeath workable in MMO's.

He said, "Anyone can set the forums on fire with post after post about what doesn?t work; it takes an intelligent and creative community to actually work together to pick up the pieces and assemble a working system."

I think he makes a fine point there. Too often, we have posters here that basically only post about what they don't like about what gets implemented. We all have dislikes that we could voice, but anyone can do that. And do that too much, and your comments are in danger of becoming common, not constructive.

I believe we have an intelligent and creative community, that because of waiting so long to see positive changes, have become bitter and combative. If there is no immediate and obvious reward for an event or quest, few want to take part anymore. Perhaps as some have said, the current event will turn out to be just a wack-a-mole event. Or perhaps it will be much more. Time will tell. To draw conclusions now, would be premature.

It is very true, that currently, we have little to work with, to assemble the community we once had. We are all just leveling as we wait for something new. For some, this is zen like and works well as an escape. For others it's a source of frustration. In a world designed for high level multiclassed players, new players are finding the challenge of the mid-levels just more grind without reason... ( according to comments made to me ) Even high level players are becoming jaded by the experience. And after gathering the 20,000th disk load of ore, are wondering why are we doing all of this?

"Community", herein defined as the banding together of the entire shard toward a common goal, looks like a thing of the past. However, cooperation is still alive, and shown every time daknor, reklar, or sog et al, are taken down, or when structures go up. All we need now, is for the Developers to finish content that connects all players on a shard to a common goal, to see the community come alive once more.

Players come and go. That is just a part of any mmorpg. Game mechanic get adjusted or changed, once valuable items fade from popularity, opinions are voiced, and issues raised. In the final analysis, it's up to the developers as to whether or not the game survives. Hopefully they listen to the numbers more than the simple comments about what's wrong. Opinions about what is "wrong" are totally subjective, the number of subs is not. If what they are doing causes the subscriptions to drop, then they quickly need to find out why and fix it. At one point they seemed to have a clear idea of what they wanted the game to be. Today that vision is blurry. Next month Oblivion gets released, in April comes D&L. Will this affect HZ subs? I hope not, but that depends on the Dev's. Let's hope they don't let the numbers slide.

[AA0]

While your view might be true for some cases, I really believe the majority of people are afraid of change. They find the negative in any change just so it doesn't happen. They want everything always to stay the same, but to get better... but not change.

And unfortunately the majority of people seem to be like this, they complain and cry and find out eventually everything is ok.. or they cry so hard they leave. I think hz is on a good track mostly, its just very slow.

The community will never band together, no matter how good they are. A small group can form, but there will be the others that don't want what they do.

[Kerik]

Yes, I saw the comments last night in Marketplace.


Unfortunately much has changed from the earlier years and now people have become accustomed to being rewarded for practically everything they do.

In Horizons, your death points evaporate during offline time; in WoW you earn xpwhile offline; or in a more extreme case - Eve, where arguably the only time you will notice skill gain is if you log out for the night.

Just about every game out there has some way of manipulating the system to gain skill/wealth or items while not being physically present.

As with all of these games a person must figure out for themselves why they are playing and what they hope to achieve.

Sadly, what was once meant as entertainment has turned into a lifestyle.

[Cloe]

Oblivion is a single player game and I know I'm not going to cancel my subs when it comes out. It will however provide me with better choice of alternate gaming if I get bogged down and need a break. Of course I could also see how the 7th or 8th generation is going to play out in Sims2. Vastly differn't from this type of game but I have to say those folks over there have a hoot of a sense of humor. Obvisously not for everyone but it's different enough for me.

People do and will go and play the new releases no two ways about it. The big catch is there aredynamicscurrently that can be tagged as a reason why.From thisexperience with HZ,I'm happy to wait to see how they shake out before seeing what they are like. Lurk the forums there and see if it's a community I'd like to participate in. I lurked these very forums for over a year because I was undecided on whether or not I was going get involved. Doesn't take long reading different post histories to figure out if someone is being a "prune" in general or if it's just a bad hair day.

There is talk about bringing the community together and more talk about it. I've voluntered tohelp and to play. Haven't heard anything back, haven't been contacted in game or in PM's. I don't hide in game or here.What is blurry is all the talk about community and nothing being done or followed through on. Thats an over generalization but it's not unrealistic. I'm all for it, what next? Am I the only one volunteering?

I have yet to pen my list if game issues and pending support tickets or past ones for that matter. Some would be spoiler, others burried in the yet another gripe bin.
None of them would do anything for the community. As stated in a different thread there are many who don't come to the boards and I'll add many that are many that are lurking/reading them from the number of guests at the bottom of the home page.

The only in game suggetion I can think of to actuallyfacilitate communityin game, and also too reach other playersthat don't use the channels by an large, would be to have an active in game TG world master. Or an activities director for this cruise if you will.More than one for the off hours too.Yes lag is an issue if it's a rare all or nothing spawn but actively conductedcommunity activities. They would have a setframe workabout intereaction and favoritism ect... I can't see that beingoutrageous with the current population till they can work out a system for a largerplayerbase.

For example only:WMlooks atwhatdifferentgroups are doing and fighting and player schools and abilities. They could set up a community quest where by the crafters are called upon to gather Xresource for the Empire however it's dangerous. Adventures will be needed to watch their backs. When completed there is a reward, nothing over powering. Something along the lines of a bonus crystal or tool or sword orhorad item.A tokengood for one appropriate in game title even. I look at grind asbeing a place holder for something better to come and somedays that outlook isa challenge. I think something like the example could take the edge off the grind and get people interacting in game more.

Perhaps setting it up where grouped with a crafter you can get Merc points protecting them if they are in a hostile resource area and turn them in for money or an item. If the craftergets killed then you get salt rock or something lol...
Might be late in the game for this but for new players and future community members there is a lot being over looked
These may have been mentioned before but my memory can only hold so much and if they were they made an impression on me.

I may have missed the pointentirely here because I didn't catchup on marketplace chat lastnight before I logged out.

[Aamer Khan]

I don't think you missed the point at all Cloe :)

And the chat in MP was not what prompted the thread at all, but the slow decline in interactivity. We do see many cooperating to kill various mobs, we did get a few from different guilds to cooperate to rebuild the woodshop, ( which the evil Dev... um, WA turned into a blight node of some sort ), but by and large, we don't have events like the satyr mines to rally the troops toward a common cause.

An active WM that does not have to also be a developer/cs/designer/tech would be a big help. Providing a purpose that affects each player in some way is really what I hope will happen. If this current event develops into town structures being destroyed, portals being toppled, and all tiers of crafters being needed to repair them, THEN, we will see the community I was talking about.

[Carinde]

To see the Community that many of us long for is going to require several things, and not all of it is up to the developers. It goes without saying that we're going to need more content, but that's true in any world. Even though there are events here and there that require a group effort, that isn't a community effort. There's a major difference between a group and a community. Reklar, Gigaroth, Valkor, etc...they are group efforts, because killing them alone is a time consuming and difficult task. Take Mhedon, Verdeios, and Arboreon, for example. They are individual efforts by the measure of our own strength, because for several adventurers, they're relatively easy to beat. However, if you think about it, the latter 3 affect the community moreso than the others. Why is this? Location. They are in areas with crafting resources. The others are in out of the way places and for the most part, you're not going to accidentally wander across them. (Except Gigaroth, because he's too jittery to stand still.). Mhedon poses more of a threat to the community that Valkor ever could, simply because of where he is. However, what do we as a community do about it? Nothing. Just avoid him and you'll be okay. Mhedon doesn't have any cool items on him, so he's not worth fighting unless he just happens to be in the way or attacks you when you aren't expecting it.

The community of Istaria isn't dying because of content and a shortage of events, it's dying because of the residents within it. We ask for things to build, but look around you. Look at all of the unfinished buildings on other people's plots. What are we doing about it? Not a thing. Now granted, there are some people who are truly trying to help, and really trying to make a difference...but they can't do it by themselves. They will end up burning themselves out by trying to support Istaria on their shoulders. Plots go unfinished for months, and considering the skill levels of so many people, there's no reason for it.

You might say that construction costs too much? Then you put up a reasonable price that you can afford. As a matter of fact, get a council together or some other body where we can all set a reasonable price on things. Pawnbrokers already limit the massive amounts of money that can be gained now, so there's no reason to have construction prices so high anymore since eventually, Istaria's richest won't be so rich as time moves on. Instead, we refuse to budge, thinking that a solution will fall from the sky. What happens in the meantime? The people with the low prices for plot work wait...and wait...and wait. Then they get tired of waiting and begin to take up construction classes. They then spend tons of time working to reach a level where they can build a plot. Does that help the community? Not at all, it isolates another person. They get all of that construction ability, and it's all for themselves. Then when someone else wants help, they remember how they were treated, and nothing changes. It happens on the adventuring side too when people need tech parts. Only a handful of people really use the technique consigner, and people wait, and wait, and wait for parts. Then they get tired and go without or buy from Nadia. Way to hold that community together!! We talk about economies and not having prices for other crafting, well that's why we should make something. Set some prices and stick to it, that's the only way we'll ever get anywhere. Instead, we do nothing but complain about a lack of an economy. Yes, we make things for free to certain people. It happens in reality as well. There are other things that we don't have, but we have to find a way around it.

As for adventuring, we have ways to bring about a sense of community, we just don't use it. We have some truly powerful fighters in Istaria, but what are we doing? Are we on the training islands, helping the newly gifted by giving advice, suggestions, or showing them how to fight in their current school? Are we in Kion, Sslanis, Kirasanct, or anywhere else, just helping out from time to time? No. We're in the Eastern Deadlands, killing Fyakki, Blights, or Necroflies. Or perhaps we're out searching for that last piece of a weapon or armor.

Several of us sit in the New Player Channel, trying to offer some advice now and then, but we're also hunting, and it gets distracting to try to do both. Then, when someone asks about how to fight as whatever they are, they receive the Istarian Guidebook to Multiclassing, Volume 3. Take Mage, Warrior, Healer, and Spiritist. Then think about what you really want be. Crafters go through the same. Take Gatherer, Miner, and Tinkerer to 85. You want to be a Tailor? Yep, take those three first, then you can worry about making that Aughundell Wear you wanted to make six months ago.

There is so much more nonsense going on, but we are the ones responsible for it. Just as an example, we can help out with materials in a huge way, both for construction and supplies. Rather than trying to delegate one or two people to fill up consigners, why not make a group of people for it? Hell, have these people setup shops in various towns too. Take Kion for clothworking and clothing / armor; have the Tailors, Outfitters, Armorers, and Weavers frequent the area during their daily visits in Istaria. If someone needs something made, that's where they can find someone. They need a weapon? Look no further than Aughundell. Training in Dalimond; Spells in Kirasanct, etc, etc. What about the people who can make all of that? It's simple...don't. Let some of the other people share the workload. Giving you more time to enjoy what you want, and still provide for the community. When you set yourself up as a Spellcrafter for the community and people ask you to make a backpack, politely point them to Kion's clothworks, and let them know that's where they can get what they need. That can do so much for the people, and there are many other ideas, but we just don't use our heads.

Simply put, if we want a community as badly as we say we do, then we're going to have to make it. Istaria needs a lot of work, and we all know this. That doesn't mean we sit around and complain while we hope for something to suddenly spark a love of this place again. The gods of Istaria have already given us an entire world, and while they're busy trying to create other things for us, we have to do our part in making everything else work.

[Aamer Khan]

Very nice post Carinde.

You are totally right that WE need to be a big part of building a vibrant community. NPA channels on both shards have the potential to be great resources, but often I hear new players, from day one, ask about multiclassing and how to level craft classes effectively. Then like you have noticed, MC 101 class starts once more, and another heads down that road. The fact is that the games mechanics and design foster this as the only way to become an effective high level player. And no, I didn't say force nor do I believe that you must MC to be effective. But even new players learn quick that they can't get others to group with them, and to fight solo, they really need a bit of healing power. So, they take up Cleric, learn that monk to 10 gives them foresight, etc...

Getting the entire shard ( since as you mention all need to be involved, else only a few carry the burden ) to adopt the ideas you put forth will be very hard. Many, want instant reward for all they do, or are just too busy to take the time to train new players towards the future. It seems that many are only interested in the "now". Some of that thinking could have been prevented by changes early on, but that's not where we are today.

I truly appreciate your post, and hope enough read this thread to start a paradigm shift in thinking. Horizons still has great potential, if the Developers and we ourselves work together to see it realized.

[Vandellia]

Reality is a hard thing to face but one Major reason things dont get finished is how players percieve things it really is about cost/effort/risk over percieved reward. Why build x if it has no tangable benefit to you many players want plots with the attached buildings but except for a few what is the real benefit ?most buildings are simply to store your accumulated stuff. some buildings make your craafting easier i admit, however howmany plots are bout but simply in effect abandoned? how many players that own plots actually advertise for workers ? the see the structures as simply too myuch time effort/money etc to be worth their bother they buy a plot and let it go fallow. If land ownership and developing your plot and getting structures added something to the overall atomsphere and provided a tangabel benifit then they get built if they are stuck in some hard to reach hole in the wall location they wont, Most communities are simply dead they exist for mass storage of stuff period some and very sadly a few have a bit of traffic, The solution is fairly easy to figure out and would require massive changes.Creating events/queststhat take place in player settlements/ guild Island/ tier related to bring in traffic to an area might be benificial.All in all if anything has a benefit of easing players lives it will get built if it doesnt it wont or will get finished slowly

[Kulamata]

I'm not at all sure that players' unfinished buildings are necessarily the result ofwork/risk/reward calculations.

I think the problem there is that for most players crafting eventually becomes tedious, and construction is the most tediouskind of crafting. It was slow to begin with, made slower, and is much longer between results than say, crafting armor, spells, or weapons. Community projects are social, relatively brief, well organized, and have a larger impact on the shard by far; so participation there is good.

If the effort exceeds the players' tolerance for tedium, they give up, and may well give up on the game too. Most players play for fun, and construction, after a while, is simply not fun for most.

[Death-knell]

I'm not at all sure that players' unfinished buildings are necessarily the result ofwork/risk/reward calculations.

I think the problem there is that for most players crafting eventually becomes tedious, and construction is the most tediouskind of crafting. It was slow to begin with, made slower, and is much longer between results than say, crafting armor, spells, or weapons. Community projects are social, relatively brief, well organized, and have a larger impact on the shard by far; so participation there is good.

If the effort exceeds the players' tolerance for tedium, they give up, and may well give up on the game too. Most players play for fun, and construction, after a while, is simply not fun for most.

This hits the nail on the head for me. When I was playing my biped crafter it always took discipline to keep going and when I finsished I needed a serious break!

As a lairshaper its a little worse, but I want to see my lair finished so I keep pushing ahead. But it is really tedious and boring, if it wasn't my lair I would have given up weeks ago.

[AA0]

There are those of us out there that do help, that don't ask for anything in return. I can't say I often see many people in new trismus helping new players... actually, there are fewer now then ever it seems.
As much as it would be nice to see a huge community effort, its very unlikely to happen. I would love to see people set up shops, but TG makes it nearly impossible to get your pouch items for sale for a period of time while you go afk, so it ends up being extremely dull to be a merchant.

Lead by example.... I would like to see a few other higher levels helping out newer players understanding whats going on, how to fight, and all the dozens of things they have questions about. I do it regularily, but no constantly (we do still need to do things for ourselves of course). If we lead by example, and do the things we want to see, maybe others will do so as well.


As for unfinished buildings everywhere, the majority of players are casual. They just don't have the time to spend in building and levelling all the classes. The cost of construction is extremely high, but when you calculate how much one could make an hour.. it really isn't. If you are paying for 40 hours of work on a building (and TG calculates building times in hours, not raw materials), then it will be a lot of time, or money. A large plot, while everyone wants one, is hard work to complete, and its unlikely most will actually do so.

[Aamer Khan]

I see many on chaos "lead by example". NPA is manned by such ones.

The trouble is, like was mentioned, only shardwide construction projects bring out the form of community this thread is about. For that reason, we must depend on TG to do their part.

And even though one poster mentions unfinished plot structures, that is not what this thread is about. Personal plots illustrate cooperation, not the community defined in this thread.

[Justa Mirage]

My problem is cash, I never "gem exploited" or "PB exploited" stuff so most of my cash has been gained through construction jobs, or selling hard to get stuff (at the time when it was hard)

but I have a J-man Scholar shop being built to benefit the community hunting for bright wisps (as they are everywhere above my plot) and the "game provided" essence ring offers no bonuses and is usually hindered by treants and there is no scholar desk.

Some from the community have helped but it looks like getting it finished is going to take an outlay of cash... so it will probably remain unfinished for now.

My dragon is almost to the point where he can harvest those, so it would be beneficial for me to get it going soon.

[Tantalyr]

My view on working on player-owned plots/lairs is a simple one. If the structure benefits the community at large, such as yours, Justa, or say a stoneworking shop near a stone resource field, then I will gladly work on it for free. If it won't benefit the community at large but just the player (e.g., it's nowhere near a resource field, or is simply a storage structure like a house), then I'll work on it for coin. If neither of the first two conditions are met, I'll work on my own plot or lair, thank you.

That said, I will certainly work for free on friends' and guildmates' plots for free, as I'm sure most players would.

[Aamer Khan]

Tant.

The thread is not about building on personal plots, as that is only a show of cooperation. I defined Community as events that involve the entire shard, and made a distiction between the two.

Thank you for again not reading the posts in the thread.

[Tantalyr]

Tant.

The thread is not about building on personal plots, as that is only a show of cooperation. I defined Community as events that involve the entire shard, and made a distiction between the two.

Thank you for again not reading the posts in the thread.

Umm, if you read Carinde's post and the replies thereafter, you'll note that the discussion, despite whatever your intentions may have been, has devolved into debating the notion of building on player plots.

*shrugs*

[Aamer Khan]

To return us to the topic, I'll turn it into a question.

How can WE the players, cooperate together to demonstrate the type of community I describe in the original post?

[LaughingOtter]

Well, if "creating community" requires building a community structure and nothing else counts, then I'd say, "not much".

What can we control? Which plots we buy and what we put on them. A craft structure erected because of proximity to resources is a community service. That person is building community and so are the folks that help build such structures.

I think it doesa greatdisservice to discount them.

[Aamer Khan]

Let me repeat myself ... again...

"'Community', herein defined as the banding together of the entire shard toward a common goal."


I'm not discounting someone building a community serving structure at all. Like the shops in Sanctuary Bay on Chaos, even though they are on a personal plot, I fully view them as public services that benefit all of us.

What I am doing is defining community in a very specific way, to highlight what has been lost in Horizons, and what we as players can do to cooperate with the developers to help gain it back.

I'm sorry if that was unclear to you.

[FleshRoast]

Some very interesting quesions raised here.

Aamer, by your definition of "community," do you imply that it is only lost on Chaos? If so, I do not see how TG can possibly be a factor.The game functions the same on all shards. TG doesn't favor one shard over another. If the "community" is suffering on a particular shard, the problem seems to be on that particular shard.

My opinion isthat, in terms of TG interaction, the "community" *must* be *all* shards. The game is equal over all servers. No one would want server specific code in the game, I hope. TG wouldn't want to maintain it, and players would all flock to the server they thought was favored. Another point here is that by listening to player base, Tulga can't simply make changes for a single shard, they have to be impartial and look to the good of all. If each shard wants something different, TG gets pulled in differnet directions and nothing gets done.

Let's go with the thought, then, that "community" is, more accurately, the players. Here, I'll agree with you that, atone level, it is shard-based. My shard, Blight, has, in my opinion, an excellent community. I'm not going to extoll the virtues of the Blight shard. It would be egotisical and quite honestly, biased. I would, however, suggest that you visit the other shards and see if the problem you perceive on Chaos exists on other shards. If not, perhaps studying the community there will give you some ideas as to what can be done on CHaos.