Ouch.....

[Safire]

they are really planning on making confectioner difficult if they do this
- Death Points -
Probably the most prevalent change will be the change to the Death Point system. Death Points will now increase per tier, based on Adventure Rating. At Tier 1, each Death Point will last 8 hours, the same as it does now, and will increase by 4 hours for each Tier up to 28 hours per Death Point at Tier 6. Additionally, the Death Penalty that is received upon accumulation of Death Points will begin at the same intensity as it does now and scale the same way, but will be capped at 75 percent rather than 25 percent. So, what can the player do to remove the Death Points? Players will be able to eat various foods to reduce the timer required to remove a Death Point.

It's a little too much of tweaking

Q: What does this mean for existing Confectioners?
A: Existing Confectioners will not have their skills, levels or experience that they have already gained changed or altered. However, moving forward, they will be subject to the Primary Skill change, as will any new Confectioners.

once again ouch

Q: So then, will Confectioners use the Primary Skill System like the Lairshaper school?
A: Yes, the Primary skill system will be implemented with the revamp of Confectioner

Q: So then, will Confectioners use the Primary Skill System like the Lairshaper school?
A: Yes, the Primary skill system will be implemented with the revamp of Confectioner

wonder how many people this will chase off

Q: Will Confectioners lose their formulas?
A: No, not at all. Existing formulas well not change. While this means Confectioners can continue making the same products they have been making this whole while, this also means that the DPTR on these foods also will not change at all. This will encourage Confectioners to replace their existing forms with new, more effective ones, and help phase out the old, less effective formulas.

wait a minute how will that work with this
Q: What will happen with Ambrosia?
A: Some of you have been working hard to stockpile Ambrosia before these changes come about. The last thing we want to do is invalidate all that effort. That just wouldnt be fair. As it is, Ambrosia VII currently takes 8 hours of of a Death Point Timer. It will continue to do so after these changes take effect as well. However, it is likely that some small changes will be made to how Ambrosia fits in with the meals. We're still discussing options internally, although, we believe we are close to settling on a final decision. More information will become available at a later time. Ambrosia will also no longer be craftable by Confectioners. Instead, it will become a rare loot-drop that will be coveted and sought after

Q: How much will Taverns increase the effectiveness of food?
A: Taverns will double the effectiveness of food. This helps ensure that eating food in a tavern is far more effective than eating it outside of one, such as in the wild.

at least this will slightly reduce the pain

Q: Will the length of time that Death Points last and the death point penalty be increased?
A: Yes, the length of time it takes for a Death Point to decay will increase based on Tier, from 8 hours as Tier 1 to 28 hours as Tier 6. And the Death Point Penalty cap (the highest it can reach) will be raised to 75 percent Stat Reduction.

NOW THIS I DO NOT LIKE WHATSOEVER

Q: Will Confectioners gain XP for making their own bowls and utensils?
A: No. With the introduction of the Primary Skill System, the Earthenware Skill will not be one of the Confectioners Primary Skill, so they will not receive any XP for creating their own bowls. XP will be adjusted accordingly on the new food products that Confectioners do make utilizing their Primary Skills.

are they trying to make people quit?

Q: Will I be able to eat food while in combat?
A: No. Players must be seated and not in combat in order to consume food. We are considering releasing some future foods which can be consumed during combat and provide some alternative effects, although this has not yet been finalized.

I see the first bug


Now I really hope that most of theese are not implemented becuase this will literally screw people over badly especially the death penalty stuff

[Vandellia]

At this point It is hard to do anything beyond speculate many things will change before it actuall;y goes as far as even being implemented to blight and the vision statment versus the actual fact can change from moment to moment so its a waste of your concerned effort at this point once it actually goes to blight in an factual way so we can judge it properly then lets get hot and debate it in all its glory

[Peaches]

they are really planning on making confectioner difficult if they do this
- Death Points -
Probably the most prevalent change will be the change to the Death Point system. Death Points will now increase per tier, based on Adventure Rating. At Tier 1, each Death Point will last 8 hours, the same as it does now, and will increase by 4 hours for each Tier up to 28 hours per Death Point at Tier 6. Additionally, the Death Penalty that is received upon accumulation of Death Points will begin at the same intensity as it does now and scale the same way, but will be capped at 75 percent rather than 25 percent. So, what can the player do to remove the Death Points? Players will be able to eat various foods to reduce the timer required to remove a Death Point.

It's a little too much of tweaking

Q: What does this mean for existing Confectioners?
A: Existing Confectioners will not have their skills, levels or experience that they have already gained changed or altered. However, moving forward, they will be subject to the Primary Skill change, as will any new Confectioners.

once again ouch

Q: So then, will Confectioners use the Primary Skill System like the Lairshaper school?
A: Yes, the Primary skill system will be implemented with the revamp of Confectioner

Q: So then, will Confectioners use the Primary Skill System like the Lairshaper school?
A: Yes, the Primary skill system will be implemented with the revamp of Confectioner

wonder how many people this will chase off

Q: Will Confectioners lose their formulas?
A: No, not at all. Existing formulas well not change. While this means Confectioners can continue making the same products they have been making this whole while, this also means that the DPTR on these foods also will not change at all. This will encourage Confectioners to replace their existing forms with new, more effective ones, and help phase out the old, less effective formulas.

wait a minute how will that work with this
Q: What will happen with Ambrosia?
A: Some of you have been working hard to stockpile Ambrosia before these changes come about. The last thing we want to do is invalidate all that effort. That just wouldnt be fair. As it is, Ambrosia VII currently takes 8 hours of of a Death Point Timer. It will continue to do so after these changes take effect as well. However, it is likely that some small changes will be made to how Ambrosia fits in with the meals. We're still discussing options internally, although, we believe we are close to settling on a final decision. More information will become available at a later time. Ambrosia will also no longer be craftable by Confectioners. Instead, it will become a rare loot-drop that will be coveted and sought after

Q: How much will Taverns increase the effectiveness of food?
A: Taverns will double the effectiveness of food. This helps ensure that eating food in a tavern is far more effective than eating it outside of one, such as in the wild.

at least this will slightly reduce the pain

Q: Will the length of time that Death Points last and the death point penalty be increased?
A: Yes, the length of time it takes for a Death Point to decay will increase based on Tier, from 8 hours as Tier 1 to 28 hours as Tier 6. And the Death Point Penalty cap (the highest it can reach) will be raised to 75 percent Stat Reduction.

NOW THIS I DO NOT LIKE WHATSOEVER

Q: Will Confectioners gain XP for making their own bowls and utensils?
A: No. With the introduction of the Primary Skill System, the Earthenware Skill will not be one of the Confectioners Primary Skill, so they will not receive any XP for creating their own bowls. XP will be adjusted accordingly on the new food products that Confectioners do make utilizing their Primary Skills.

are they trying to make people quit?

Q: Will I be able to eat food while in combat?
A: No. Players must be seated and not in combat in order to consume food. We are considering releasing some future foods which can be consumed during combat and provide some alternative effects, although this has not yet been finalized.

I see the first bug


Now I really hope that most of theese are not implemented becuase this will literally screw people over badly especially the death penalty stuff

All schools will also be subjected to change for crafting. At some point in time. The dragons were the first ones to learn the new system, some were happy, some were not.

I think the changes coming, are good for the game, even though I don't like the dp timer that I will get stuck with. One thing I have always done, was limited my dps to three during one hunting session. I used self control, and never used bragging rights for more total death points. I more or less pick and choose my battles.

Even with the upcoming changes, I am looking forward to them, and will keep following my self control on death points by picking and choosing my battles, to a minimum of one death point, this way, I can still craft. Can't do much about the disconnects and dying though. Heh

No, they aren't trying to chase away players, they are trying to make it a far more stable game , mechanics wise. So, it has my five thumbs up!

[Safire]

what I disliked about it most was the death penalty was being planned to be increased to a 75% stat reduction which will make charactors useless at everything for the period of time they set it for (a stat at 1,000 will become 250 for the time period that they set it for) the death points and ambrosia tweak were harsh but i can kinda see the point. I usually run away instead of dieing but even so i do ocasionally get deathpoints and when im whare I get one im bound to get more yes i know that it is just in the planning but if we dont say anything the devs wont and cant do anything
*edit:fixed some spelling probelms

[Kwinn]

I disagree with your assessment.

I'm right with ya Kumu. I disagree completely with this assessment.


What this system looks like to me is that death will mean something. As it stands now, it's little more than a nuisance. Same for the Death Penalty. With the new system a Death Penalty will have some teeth.

Adventureres will have be less of a kamikaze and a bit more thoughtful, except maybe the dorfs. They are a bit more crazy than the average Joe, IMO.

The more craft oriented will have to be a bit more careful, or possibly call in some help. Calling help works, ask Peaches.

[Varangaard]

Bit late to the party with the comments. Confectioner changes have been discussed to death already, over at the Discussions section (which is, I think, where this thread belongs by proxy). I guess it'll just sufffice for me to repeat myself again and say I'm looking forwards to testing out the revamped confectioner school.

[AA0]

Not to mention he completely doesn't understand the primary skill system for crafting, everyone thinks its a nerf, when its really a boost

[Varangaard]

Ah yes, the primary skill system. At first I was somewhat concerned, as dragon lairshaper was to be the test case for that. However, once I got things started, lair plot bought and forms scribed I discovered it wasn't as hard as I thought. I've had nothing to complain about rate of experience I've been getting when I work at a tier proper to my level.Tier 4 work has been enough to catapult me to lvl80 without noticeable slowdown. I suppose if I wanted to progress even faster I'd put down a T5 chamber and start on that.

Sometimes the experience has been frighteningly fast, a fifth of a level perhaps from a single 'craft run' - starting from base resources and finishing by placing to lair - but the nature of lairshaping's primary skill system is that the reward comes in few big chunks at the end, when you use your class skill to create the final items and proceed to apply.

Of course, my 100 crafter levels and tier 5 scale capability has hastened things, but I can't see lairhsaping being torturously slow even for a new hatchling. Bipeds similarly will have their multiple craft schools to assist at the veteran end of things.

[Ophelea]

a DP increases by 5% every death. First death: 0%. Second: 5%. Third: 10%, etc. Therefore in order to get a 75% penalty you will have to have 16 death points. You should never have that many death points:P.

Oh come now. You've obviously never played ANY game with me.

I can rack up that many death points in half an hour, regardless of the game!

[Rocinante]

Not to mention he completely doesn't understand the primary skill system for crafting, everyone thinks its a nerf, when its really a boost

Maybe I dont understand but I see primary skill system as a nerf, here's why.
As an alchemist I need metal bars to craft 2 potions. Smelting, the skill that allows the creation of metal bars is not an alchemist class skill. Therefore I make said bars with a class that does gain xp from the making of bars. However its my understanding that under the primary system I will no longer gain xp for making the bars. To further complicate matters 10 of the 16 regular potions require some out of class skills to craft. With out the xp for making bars or purified orbs it will be significantly harder for a player to craft the majority of potions by themselves, not that it was really easy to begin with.

Before you counter with the xp boost that will be gained, that boost is only in the alchemist school. Since an alchemist relys on a minimum of three classes, concentrating all the xp in to a single school doesn't help, it hinders.


Rocinante

[tramsan]

You've misunderstood two items.

1. You will get xp for smelting as a miner.
2. The xp for actually creating the potions will be significantly upped.

No, that's right, we don't know exactly by how much it will be upped, but simply assuming it won't measure up is wrong, it might just as well be more.

[Deth]

Maybe I dont understand but I see primary skill system as a nerf, here's why.
As an alchemist I need metal bars to craft 2 potions. Smelting, the skill that allows the creation of metal bars is not an alchemist class skill. Therefore I make said bars with a class that does gain xp from the making of bars. However its my understanding that under the primary system I will no longer gain xp for making the bars. To further complicate matters 10 of the 16 regular potions require some out of class skills to craft. With out the xp for making bars or purified orbs it will be significantly harder for a player to craft the majority of potions by themselves, not that it was really easy to begin with.

Before you counter with the xp boost that will be gained, that boost is only in the alchemist school. Since an alchemist relys on a minimum of three classes, concentrating all the xp in to a single school doesn't help, it hinders.
Rocinante

As far as making the bars you will just need to change teh class you use to make the bars. One thing I see is this is going to push a lot more people into miner and gather classes.

What I think they hope will happen is that this will help force some economy growth in that people might start working togather or trading for items they need and can not craft your self. If your making reaping potions work with a up and coming black smith, or what ever class that makes what you need and get xp, and offer them a share of your potions you make in trade for the item you need.

But yes anyway you cut it it is a nerf in a way but in others hopefully it will turn out to be a boost.

[LaughingOtter]

To further complicate matters 10 of the 16 regular potions require some out of class skills to craft. With out the xp for making bars or purified orbs it will be significantly harder for a player to craft the majority of potions by themselves, not that it was really easy to begin with.

Alchemists don't get XP NOW for making bars, or for purified orbs, or for tools used in potion making. That's not going to change. Alchemists will get XP for using the alchemy skill, and the amount of that XP will be increased over what it is now.

If you want to max you XP gain with potion making, then you need to switch to gatherer to make orbs, enchanter to purify them, miner to do smelting, and blacksmith to make the tools. In every case except making regular or tainted orbs, that's the situation alchemists have NOW.

So, yes, you'll lose a little XP for not getting essence processing XP, but you'll be getting MORE XP for both making your suspensions and doing your final combines.

[Seranthor]

Regardless of whether changing now to a primary skill system is going to be a nerf or not. You have advance warning its happening, and going to happen, perhaps it would be prudent to think about what your goals are and accomplish those that will be most affected by the change and do them now instead of waiting to get bitten in the arse by the change. I remember in Spring '05 the rumblings from TG about mithril becoming an alloy, instead of waiting for the change to bite ME I did what I needed to do to avoid the pain. Decide for yourself about whether you want to be the fat happy ant in the dead of the winter or the starving arse grasshopper howling about the inevitable.

[AA0]

yes, it doesn't really matter, since you won't get exp for making orbs, you can level gatherer from that, then go back to alchemist and make potions and have all the exp which you would have got normally, built right into the potion exp. For something odd like alchemist, we don't know exactly how purified orbs will work, but there is a good bet some of that exp will be added into the potion exp and giving you even more.
This system only benefits those that use it properly, the dumb grinders that don't learn their crafts will fail.

[Seranthor]

I'd bet that nothing happens to purifying the orbs, because it doesn't use essence shaping but enchanting... but who knows.

[Rocinante]

Alchemists don't get XP NOW for making bars, or for purified orbs, or for tools used in potion making. That's not going to change. Alchemists will get XP for using the alchemy skill, and the amount of that XP will be increased over what it is now.

If you want to max you XP gain with potion making, then you need to switch to gatherer to make orbs, enchanter to purify them, miner to do smelting, and blacksmith to make the tools. In every case except making regular or tainted orbs, that's the situation alchemists have NOW.

So, yes, you'll lose a little XP for not getting essence processing XP, but you'll be getting MORE XP for both making your suspensions and doing your final combines.

You are correct alchemist do not get xp for making bars or purified orbs or for tools. I don't expect that to change nor I am suggesting that.

However the situation as you describe is not accurate. Max xp can be gained by using your Alchemist class to gather orbs or your Enchanter class. Metals and Stones can be done by your Blacksmith. Furthermore you need xp in those classes to help support your alchemy needs. Spliting your xp between miner and gatherer is not the ideal path.

If you want to make potions/dyes on your own you need to raise your enchanter and your blacksmith at the same time. However these two classes will now go up slower as your not getting xp for the bars you use in potions or dyes. Additionally your not getting enchanter xp for the purified orbs your making. Therefore you going to have to work harder at non-alchmeist related activities in those schools to keep up with your alchemy needs. Getting more alchemy xp is great, however that means that your alchemy will then go even faster than your enchanter and blacksmith. The point isnt to get more xp for alchemist. Its best is you can develop your blacksmith/enchanter classes by supporting your alchemist needs. Primary skill system doesn't allow this as much.

What several people are now mentioning is that an alchemist take up miner as well just to make bars, adding a fourth class to make potions/dyes is going backwards. Same goes with adding gatherer to make orbs thats not progress. Leveling 4 other classes just to make potions is now twice as crazy as it currently stands.

The bottomline is that an alchemist will now have to spend more time working on blacksmith and enchanter just to be albe to work on alchemist.

For the record I am prepared.

Rocinante
100 Alchemist/100 Blacksmith/82 Enchanter

[Deth]

Welll your blacksmith would not fall behind because you would be getting all the XP you were getting for making bars when you make the say pick. You wouldm if you wished to get xp for every step of the way, have to use miner to make bars, but do not have to as I assume that Blacksmiths get and will keep getting the skill to make bars. You will not get the XP till you make the tool. Now Enchanter I am not sure. Purifying orbs does gather also get that skill or is that a enchaner only skill? If it is a enchanter only skill they that should fall under the primary skill system and you should get some xp. But yes that would fall behind as I think enchanter is a constrution class.

[AA0]

Primary skill system allows for far more experience in general for the same amount of work, if used properly. It also will allow for less work and more exp with contracted out bits of work (like getting someone to supply all your orbs then just making potions).
The system would be a massive benefit to alchemists, however, they will still not be a fully self sufficient class. You can still make potions, and dyes the same way as you could before as a pure alchemist, just not ALL of them. Enchanter and Blacksmith isn't a must, just convient. It is arguing for the sake of arguing

[Rocinante]

Primary skill system allows for far more experience in general for the same amount of work, if used properly. It also will allow for less work and more exp with contracted out bits of work (like getting someone to supply all your orbs then just making potions).
The system would be a massive benefit to alchemists, however, they will still not be a fully self sufficient class. You can still make potions, and dyes the same way as you could before as a pure alchemist, just not ALL of them. Enchanter and Blacksmith isn't a must, just convient. It is arguing for the sake of arguing

Again, its not about more alchemist xp. Its about trying be self sufficient and being able to craft the majority of the items. Under the primary skill system it will be harder to achieve.

This is not a massive benefit or a benefit of anykind. Its quite the opposite. If you choose not to see it or believe it, then so be it.

Rocinante