Craft nerfing

[Fel Tir]

Thought of a couple other things to say. I am happy with the way the craft system works now except for dragons. I don't see a need for changes with biped crafting. A few cleanup issues are fine but dragon crafting on the other hand is a different story.

For a dragon toon, by leveling one single craft school namely dragoncraft, you get skill for scalecraft, essence harvesting and shaping, spellcraft, mining, quarrying, smelting, stoneworking and gemworking with salvaging and transmutation also.

For a biped to get all those skills they need to level at least three schools likejeweler, scholar, and armorer (similar toscalecraft). Except even at that a biped couldnt make its own weapon (dragon claws). So you might have to add weaponcraft to that list.

Now throw in lairshaper which gets both crystalshaping and lairshaping skills and thats like mason and fitter.

Seems to me if anything needs changed, I would think about balancing the dragons and bipeds. One could either reduce the number of biped schools (spread skillsto fewer schools like dragons) or increase the number of dragon schools (split skills across more dragon schools).

[Doombreak]

There is a saying: "If it isnt broken dont fix it"

Some thinsg can be slightly altered but some schools would become just plain too hard to lvl like is they take scuplting, eartherncraft and metalworking and woodworking away form tinker wots left for tink to do? just make usless fabricators that aint even in expert..if so i can c the number of tinkerers decline. the craft system is great as it is imo. Work can bedone on the confectioner school which requiresa lot of attension then the tinkerer school after..thenmaybe think about a Tier 7 resources to be added in since the master forms are close in so as to give transmutation another use. Make real good storyline events and work on completely new content maybe new craft schools like furntiure and dont fiddle with things that dont need fixing

[Guaran]

Dragons are, by the games own lore, the earliest users of magic. We have claws and can't equip tools, we magically perform tasks such as harvesting. Therefore the direct comparison to the biped classes doesn't really work. It may not make 100% sense, but since when does anything concerning dragons make 100% sense?? We have less strength than a gnomeberserker, less power than a wizard, and havea crappy line of spells for "Masters of Magic"

In defense of Dragon Crafters, we do have seperate trainers for Gemworking, Mining, Quarrying, Essence Harvesting, Essence Shaping, Scalecrafting, and Spellcrafting, and Capacity. To be very good in the skills the quests have to be done (70 quests for all those up to level 100, 10 quests for capacity), and even then the skills are at lower levels than most of the comparative biped crafting schools.

[Tarran of Chaos]

Thought of a couple other things to say. I am happy with the way the craft system works now except for dragons. I don't see a need for changes with biped crafting. A few cleanup issues are fine but dragon crafting on the other hand is a different story.

For a dragon toon, by leveling one single craft school namely dragoncraft, you get skill for scalecraft, essence harvesting and shaping, spellcraft, mining, quarrying, smelting, stoneworking and gemworking with salvaging and transmutation also.

For a biped to get all those skills they need to level at least three schools likejeweler, scholar, and armorer (similar toscalecraft). Except even at that a biped couldnt make its own weapon (dragon claws). So you might have to add weaponcraft to that list.

Now throw in lairshaper which gets both crystalshaping and lairshaping skills and thats like mason and fitter.

Seems to me if anything needs changed, I would think about balancing the dragons and bipeds. One could either reduce the number of biped schools (spread skillsto fewer schools like dragons) or increase the number of dragon schools (split skills across more dragon schools).

*shouts* Can I get an AMEN from the church! Hallelujah my brother!

[Tarran of Chaos]

And I'm sure the adventure side will received the same attention. Really makes no sense to level school A then use school A's skills/abilities/statistics to level a fringe of school B (fringe, not school B's more core school of skills).

Ok, go make a new char and multiclass it with no fringes as being low level but high rating.Yeah, it makes much more sense to level with trophies doesnt it.

Wrong.

The whole point in picking the order of your multiclassing to gain footholds so you dont pull your hair out trying to make a character you are happy with.

[Tarran of Chaos]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Machivelli wrote:
So besides putting these 8 or so schools at a greater disadvantage then the rest, what has been accomplished?

Well, I'd say what has been accomplished is making people actually *do* the skills embodied by a craft class. You want to be an alchemist? You have to make dyes and potions. You want to be a tinkerer? Learn to make cargo. Want to be a fitter? Build something. Want to get rich making ambrosia VII? Better learn to cook gruok.

What does it accomplish? It makes those expert crafter emblems mean something. It makes hitting 100 in a craft school something worthy of respect again.

So sayeth the guy who just got done telling me in game thathe agrees with being able to level a ton of classes without touching their base nature (such as jeweler without making jewelery etc)

[LaughingOtter]

So sayeth the guy who just got done telling me in game thathe agrees with being able to level a ton of classes without touching their base nature (such as jeweler without making jewelery etc)

Not at all. I said it could be done. The point was thatbipeds can easily bootstrap additional craft classes with minimal effort, and I offered it as a counter to your assertion that dragons are cheating because they only have to level one craft class.They do indeed only have to level one class, but it leaves them with lower skill than a biped can reach and they can do nothing to improve themselves once they get there.

Alevel 100 miner can do T5 gems faster than a level 100 dragon crafter, and can opt to use the XP to level jeweler, without ever making jewelry. If both the miner and the dragon cut and pawn 5 gold worth of gems, the miner will have added a great many levels of jeweler, while the dragongets no benefit fromthe XP. Bipeds can do extra work to round out their skills if they choose to; dragons don't have that option. Dragons can never reach the same same skill levels bipeds can, no matter how much effort they put in. The only area in which they outshine biped crafters is scalecrafting.

Howcan you say dragon crafters arecheating when they get no reward for their effort and cannot ever hope to match a biped's skill level?

[Guaran]

Amen!

[Capaloso]

On the topic of craft changes, I would like to mention one of the stranger and seemingly insensible items in the world... To place a tree on my plot, I must build it from resources. How exactly do you "build" a tree? Wouldn't it be so much more reasonable and interesting if you had to find the trees you liked in the wild, pick up the fallen seeds from the ground, and tend to them with water drawn from the well? Horizons tends to fall upon realism over convenience, so why should this be any different? It's a simple change that I believe would contribute to the steady improvement of Istaria.

[AA0]

Growing a tree would take time, I'm guessing the reason so much essence (magic) is needed is to not need that time and speed up the growth?

[cattoy]

I've always found it a little ironic that, in order to 'plant' a single tree on your plot, you have to clear cut a grove...

[Maneso]

Lets focus on Alchemist for a bit here. If all I can make to level is pots and dyes then I have to start from T1 (weaponsmiths get to start at T5!). I have to gather all of the T1 orbs, gems, metals etc, then I can begin to level Alchemist. Yes you have a greater capacity and your ability to gather these items is higher (if you took the supporting schools high enough), but that does not change the fact that I have to do a ton of prep work in which 0 XP is earned. In the current system if I took one of the essence working schools high enough I could gain XP from working higher tiered orbs, one of the REQUIRED elements in making Alchemist items. Does that make it easier, of course it does, I?m relying on a skill that I built up using one of the supporting schools (JUST like working BS ? Weaponsmith in the new system). Should I get XP from making the supporting items ? YES! To say that a Confectioner learns the art of making clay pots (skill increased every time they advance) but gains no XP from performing this task is absurd.

From my memory of Isole taking Alchemist (several crafting classes at 50+), she had to start out by making T1 orbs and such, and make T1 potions. So that doesn't work, does it? She got the gathering and capacity boosts from other classes. She also LOST experience from having those classes (someone level 40 isn't going to get much from T1). Under the proposed changes, she would actually get more now. All of her experience would be centered around the potions and dyes she made (which Maneso ate), which is based off base skill.

Also, is crafting like adventuring, where there is a cap on the amount of experience you get from one kill, based on your level? (sorry, just curious on that one)

[Aria]

1. Please dont' make this so much of a grind that a casual player will not be able to receive some satisfaction by making a bit of progress in the time they are able to play. I have read different reports from David Bowen given in interviews that Horizons is game that can be enjoyed by casual players as well, I hope this won't change that..

2. I dont' agree with powerleveling, I think expert emblems are something that should be worth something, not easily come by. I also think that anyone who wants to find a loophole and spent hours grinding away at deconning a tool to level something like fitter is really missing out...the experience of watching your hard work and effort transfom itself from an idea in the builders mind to a visible structure is really worth something!

All in all I hope a balance is struck that can will result in a fun and worthwile gaming experience that will keep a hard gamer occupied without discouraging the casual or new player

[Nalrach]

Well, I have read the forums about the proposed craft changes. I do not completely agree with the direction they are trying to go in.

I hate to do this, and I certainly do not want to start a dragon - byped war.

When they first came out with the idea to restricting the craft so you would not be able to use a completely different trade to raised another one. Some of it made sense and other , well I wanted to reserve my judgement.

I quit the game for a while and return to see little change and since I was bored of my byped, decided to give a go at the dragon.

One thing that poped to me was the fact that alll along when they talk to make the byped more isolated in each of their trade class, is the fact they developped the dragon to be a single super power worker class that has all the goods of crafting, the magic & millee combat. To add to my disbelief their is laircrafting which the dragon can do all its lair building (plot construction) as one individual , when on the oposite we speak of making it hard for a byped construction worker to have all the skill.

So before I say I agree or don't .. personnally I would love to see the devs making sure byped & dragon's are progressing in the same direction.

just a taugth.

[Weston]

One thing that poped to me was the fact that alll along when they talk to make the byped more isolated in each of their trade class, is the fact they developped the dragon to be a single super power worker class that has all the goods of crafting, the magic & millee combat. To add to my disbelief their is laircrafting which the dragon can do all its lair building (plot construction) as one individual , when on the oposite we speak of making it hard for a byped construction worker to have all the skill.

You're absolutely right, and have even UNDERstated the case a bit. A Dragon Crafter only has to level 1-100 ONE TIME. In doing so, they get ALL relevant crafting skills available to the Race. With the addition of Crystalshaping/Laircrafting, they have added a more 'biped-ish' approach to crafting.

Dragon Adventurers, level 100, are arguably the best warriors in the game, or nearly so. They only have to gain 100 levels ONCE. True, quests to develop the survival skills to do so must be done as well, but it's still just the one school. To compare favorably with a Dragon, a biped adventurer must raise at least 2 or 3 schools to 100, and have bits and pieces of a few others, to gain the skills to compete with a Dragon's Skill in combat.

I've seen Dragons take both Adv and Craft to 100 in months. Bipeds need YEARS to develop max abilities. I'm sure this topic has been beaten to death over the past 3 years, so this is reheated leftovers.

The point needs to be made, tho, that Tulga seems, at times, to be taking steps forward, and 1 step back, with implementation of some new changes.

Weston

[WillT]

Dragons trade away the flexibility of a biped, and the variable things to do. They also trade away the high skill levels of a biped.

In exchange, a biped CAN be better than dragoncrafters in almost every respect, and can choose to focus and improve even faster in a handful of things.

It seems a fair exchange, at least in theory; my main character is a dragon, and frankly I've often wished I COULD diversify my craft skill.