(!) "CAUTION: Updating your billing info"

[Chioxin]

Does it have to be on the forum to be formal? They are trying at least... just because they didn't post on the forum doesn't mean they aren't. To the ones saying they hate how they went to "Market" and "IRC" to talk to us about it because it wasn't done on the forums.... where's the issue? They are talking to those playing the game! Though I don't know about IRC, that's small....

Ya they should make a post here, but they have made some attempts to discuss so quit bashing them for not posting here... I throw the same arguement back at you Gopher... How many people do you think read the forums? About as many who are in the Market Place... Or on IRC... Usually the same people. You do know there are a good many who play the game and absolutely IGNORE the forums because they can't stand rummaging through post like /these/!

What makes the forums so important over those two areas? What makes EI so evil for contacting the player base in their world, rather than here? I guess my line of debate ends there =/ I hope those on the forum get what they request .... it's only been 2 days though.

[EDIT = Snickel makes a great point as well... ]

[Alladania]

When they made their announcement in game, there were a lot of people still at work. If they didn't know someone that was in marketplace, they didn't get the info. If you weren't on IRC, you didn't get the info. You're right. A lot of people don't read the forums. So maybe the announcement should be on the login page with other important announcements, or on the screen when you click to update your account.

[snickel]

The difference, Chioxin, is that talk in irc or in a channel can only be heard/read by those that are present at the same time. No chance to go back over it, to read again what passed, to show it to others. So that acknowledgement if given in these media becomes a sort of hearsay evidence.

This forum has a section for official statements -- perfect for giving them. And there is also room on the login page. At least there it meets the eyes of all those that want to play this game.

[Aria]

Chioxin, with all due respect, out of 2 days is there not the time available to make a post that takes a few minutes? Especially regarding something like this? It is in good interest to maintain relationships with your customers...it is why most businesses have 1800 numbers for concerns/complaints, if for nothing else then to provide communication with the people who purchase their products. It is good that they communicate in IRC and marketplace...but what about potential players who come by to check out the game? I for one would like to see this game grow. They do not log into IRC or marketplace....and browsings posts like these with no word from the developers smacks of incompetence...and HZ has a bad enough reputation as it is . Some reassurance, and acknowledgement, is not being overly demanding methinks.

[Aria]

You are absolutely right. We should have been notified via the email tied to our accounts, since it concerns billing. Posting in the forums, IRC and in game should have been an additional way to inform account holders, not the primary means.

I agree completely.

[LaughingOtter]

The actual payment processing is handled by PayPal. That part of the whole thing is secure.

EI's billing information screen is the issue. That part of it is 100% under EI's control and EI is 100% at fault. I don't think for a moment it was set up that way intentionally or maliciously; it's simply a dumb mistake caused, IMHO, by EI being inexperienced and unready to manage a project of this size.

Edit - And as far as communication goes, talking to people in-game is fine, but not when that's the ONLY form of communication used. Refusing to use the forums and IRC and email and the login site in addition to in-game chat is just plain foolish.

[snickel]

The actual payment processing is handled by PayPal. That part of the whole thing is secure.

EI's billing information screen is the issue. That part of it is 100% under EI's control and EI is 100% at fault. I don't think for a moment it was set up that way intentionally or maliciously; it's simply a dumb mistake caused, IMHO, by EI being inexperienced and unready to manage a project of this size.

Errr -- now I'm lost a little. Paypal will handle my payment via credit card???

[D0ZeR]

By not posting in the forums and not reassuring any new potential customers is just stupid. Not like it hasn't been posted on other sites now and I would guess some people would like to be informed before even thinking of giving the new owners a chance with HZ.

[Chioxin]

The log in page would make a lot more sense than anywhere else at all.

And yes, snickel but... there are logs and people could sift through them to pull out the info [all you really need is the time] .. then you can post it up.

And yes Aria I can understand them posting acknowledging the problem... but again snickel pointed out... Why when so many are going to attack them for posting acknowledgement and no specifics for how they will solve it? If they themselves don't know yet or haven't devised a plan to do so yet.

[Tantalyr]

Errr -- now I'm lost a little. Paypal will handle my payment via credit card???

Yes.

Simply go to PayPal's website and create an account there. When prompted, enter your credit card information. PayPal will utilize that credit card to pay your monthly subscription fee (or however long of a cycle you choose to pay for). PayPal accepts AmEx, MasterCard, Visa and Discover cards, as well as associated debit cards.

[snickel]

Yes.

Simply go to PayPal's website and create an account there. When prompted, enter your credit card information. PayPal will utilize that credit card to pay your monthly subscription fee (or however long of a cycle you choose to pay for).

But... but.... can I really do this without creating a paypal account?

Why am I expected to send my credit card info to EI via snail mail then (and not to some paypal place)?

Totally confused *eyes the whiskey bottles on the shelf*

[Tantalyr]

But... but.... can I really do this without creating a paypal account?

Why am I expected to send my credit card info to EI via snail mail then (and not to some paypal place)?

Totally confused *eyes the whiskey bottles on the shelf*

PayPal is simply a secure intermediary to pay for things online via credit card or your bank account. I prefer using a credit card since if worse comes to worst and my information is stolen or hacked, I can simply dispute the charges and never pay or suffer any financial consequences. Were I to use my bank account and the information was stolen or hacked, then all funds in my account would be emptied and it might well take weeks to get the funds back.

I've used PayPal for years to pay for things online, including my monthly subscription fees for the two previous MMORPG's I've played, and never had a problem.

I did a bit of research this morning and read various articles relating to PayPal's security, and I found that by far the problems folks have had using PayPal have stemmed from being scammed by "phishing"--those emails you occasionally get that appear to be from banks, credit card companies, or other financial folks you deal with telling you that you need to "update" all your financial information, but then direct you to the scammer's own website (done up just like the real company) to enter this sensitive information. Since I know just enough about the Net to smell a phish when I get one, I've never had a problem.

[CptnNoodle]

well looks like PAYPAL is their BILLING SPECIALIST Why didn't they say so in the BEGINNING

[Alladania]

If I understand it all, it's the interface between HZ and Paypal that's the security issue.

[snickel]

Well Tantalyr,

I don't dispute PayPals security.

I was, however, led to believe that I could still pay via credit card without opening a paypal account. Such a thing still seems possible but, alas, at the moment this would involve sending sensible credit card information via postal service. I won't do that.

As stated before, I shall wait until a site is available that doesn't require me to create a paypal account and nevertheless allows for secure transmission of credit card info.

[AA0]

I won't be using paypal, I have an account and there (as already mentioned) really is no buyer protection at all. For purchases the size of hz, you get charged more to dispute then you paid, and various companies have taken advantage of this in the past.

The log from IRC was attempted to be posted in the forums, unfortunately Peaches has decided that you all should not know what is happening here and deleted the post.

I'm not sure what is worse, the completely insecure data being handled, or the cover up of it.

[Nosdracir]

Here is a simple solution...

If you have not done so yet, create a checking account at your local bank, that provides a credit card style debit card (aka Visa ). Keep very little money in this account, and ONLY use it to pay for your online gaming.

This lets you take control of what happens, the account is protected from fraud, and you stand little chance of losing money, since hackers will not chance going to jail if caught, for 50 bucks. Of course, you do have the stress of having (gasp) two cards to deal with...

I'd strongly recommend reading all the fine print before doing this. A VISA logo'd debit card does not carry the same protections as a Visa credit card. It's more like an ATM withdrawal without a PIN, charges are deducted from your account immediately. If someone steals the number, you are liable for all charges until you report the theft, whereas with a CC you are only liable for the first $50 before you report the loss, and $0 after reporting it. Charges made with the card can overdraw your account, so keeping a small amount of money in it is not a safeguard.

For the above reasons I refuse to let my bank give me a credit card logo'd debit card. I don't want anyone to be able to use the card without a PIN.

[Nayal]

I can not believe those of you who are defending these billing issues, and EI's lack of response to the issue.

This isn't an in-game bug, this isn't a deleted character issue, this isn't a server reliability issue. This is an issue that has to do with the real life money and finances of ALL of Horizons player base. There should be a post on the main Horizon's page, a post on the forums, on the game login, and an email sent to every account holder. All of that should have happened the moment EI became aware of the issue.

There is no excuse for a brief visit to one channel in game and a stop on IRC to be their ONLY communication on this issue. When there's a billing issue, every attempt should be made to notify all account holders immediately.

As for Paypal being the only option for payment, that's pathetic. If that continues to be the case, then I fear Horizons will not only cease to grow, but will decline in subscription numbers. I will not use paypal to pay for a game subscription, and I sure as heck will not send all the information a person ever needs to steal my identity via US post office for it to be processed by hand by a company that, apparently, can not even be bothered to communicate with their customer's effectively.

After my initial unfavorable impression of EI, I have tried to keep faith that they would prove themselves to be a benefit to Horizons. This, however, may very well be the last straw for me. I live paycheck to paycheck, sometimes down to the penny. One erroneous charge could set off a chain of bounced charges and checks that would cost me hundreds of dollars. I can't continue to deal with such a shady and, apparently, unreliable company.

[Chioxin]

*recalls the reasons he ignores forums and goes back to doing so.*

I hope EI gets their stuff straight, really do! Hope you're all still around when/if they do.

Good luck to all.


*Still holding in there, waiting and hoping, but not going to be angry either way the pin drops.*

[Tigris]

"For these reasons, and until we learn more, GU is advising that any and all Horizons Users avoid the game until such time as the billing issues have been resolved." --Woody Hearn http://www.gucomics.com

*sigh*

I feel very sad for one of my favorite games right now.