Billing Feedback

[Arietna]

I'm a Unity player (or rather I was, I'm now based on Chaos). I believe I'm fairly typical of our guild in that I have 1 or 2 bipeds, a dragon, a biped plot and a lair. I paid 2 subscriptions for this.
I don't NEED 5 character slots, but I don't mind having those as an option (mules are always useful).

My primary aim in this game is building. It's the one thing NO other game out there has (EQ2 has nice housing, but it's instanced, and you don't build it)..

I'd happily pay $14.95 per month for a standard sub but I'd like the option of adding an extra plot (as so many have said). Consigner limits - well, I may be the exception - I hardly ever use them! That said I know a lot of people who do, so let the "basic" accounts have them - you're trying to hook them on the game, so let them experience the full flavour. Limit the basic accounts to the 25x25 plot size - no serious plot builder really wants something so small.. but don't stop them having plots - they need to experience this too, and someone who gets hooked will upgrade..

Oh, you haven't been clear - are you ALLOCATED plots? or can you pick where you want to be? Do guild plots count - what happens if you are allocated a plot miles away from anyone in your guild? Can you sell it and get another?

Have a donations option too - some of us want to help support you, and personally I wouldn't mind paying $5 or more extra a month to aid you get off the ground at least, but I know I'm in the minority of those who can afford to do it..

I'm really excited about Horizons becoming a viable game again - and want to start saying to people "come back" - or "come try this" rather than what I've had to be saying this last year "love the game, shame about the support and the no development problem.."

I definitely would pay more for a BIG plot, or a combined lair/plot.. even an ancient subscription purely for this!


Sarah

[Andrakhyn]

I'm against real-world money having an impact on in-game matters. And this tiered billing system doesn't appeal to me. It's true, people can have multiple accounts so they effectively get the same - except this way the game is activitely facilitating real-world money impacting on the game world.

I think that's going to change the fundamental tone of the game in a way that won't end well.

If some players want to fork out money for multiple subscriptions, then let them do that. But I wouldn't want to see this tiered system implemented.

Who do you intend the Basic subscription to appeal to? Other than dragons (of course) one of Horizons' biggest draws is the idea of a player built world. You say it's for people coming to have a look... I think you'd be better off allowing potential subscribers to experience the full game. A one month or even two week trial period - where if you don't subscribe, all your data is wiped at the end of the period.

I'm happy to pay the Gifted rate. Granted, it's a little high when you compare Horizons' graphics etc. to other mmos on the market - but there just aren't any other games like Horizons. And I've always wished this game would be fixed.

[Raeshlavik]

Basically, because I have to start over, (anyone want a tag-along hatchling for a few days?) I'll probably be paying one level up from the minimum fees - what ever that turns out to be - for a month or two. Once I get back into building and the world events begin to flow again, I'll easily jump myself up to a premium subscription.

I just uninstalled WoW (3 accounts on hiatus) because the guild I'm in 'beat' it and have about a year to wait for the next big battle - so I want to spend that time seeing how HZ pans out. IMHO HZ is still a better "game" compared to what's out there, it's just lacking the polish of a 30-million dollar project like LoTRO or WoW... And no matter *what* happens, HZ scores better than the blatant money-grab that was Vanguard (which I refer to as Horizons 2.0 mostly because the sordid tales of its development are so similar to the stories we hear of HZ's early days)

So, there you have my plans. I'd like to second (or twelfth, or whatever) the suggestion of a PayPal button around here some where... I'll happily put something in the tip-jar just because you guys are talking to us!

[rizo/nawkia]

im sorry i cant agree with this kinda system, i have 3 characters a plot an thats all i want for the 120 i had before, the rest just seems to much, also the consignment thing 10 just isnt enough cause armor has 13 pieces an some things we have to sell an stock on the connies..........im also a veteran player so i hope my input counts

[Fyrentennimara]

Dear Horizons CS,

Now that I've read some of your definitions in the original post, I'm am more inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt. However, there should never be any "special sized" plots added to this game that involve "people with more money to spend" getting them. That creates elitism and that's something that this community has worked hard to squash quickly! You should not be rewarded in game for having a more comfortable lifestyle OUTSIDE of the game! What that will create is people with a 30X30 plot, paying $15/mo. whining on these forums every 2 days about how so and so with a 120X120(no I'm not familiar with biped plot dimensions, I'm a dragon)plot is unfair to them. Do not create anymore drama please!!! Give us a break and leave the plots alone.

Now, the above being said, I do agree with perhaps the package deals(those Ancient subs) coming with perhaps another plot slot. But. I would rather see an ala carte deal here. I know you guys are already beefing about lost revenue, but, hey, this boat is capsizing already there, guys. I would think that a few xtra bucks a month that people dump into a la carte items would be a welcome treat.

Anyway, please, rethink the plots, don't jack the community we already have.


I will quickly edit this and say that I will not give you my money if this game is not returned to it's former glory. And messing around with new plots and billing systems isn't it's former glory. Just do what anyone else would do and reinstate the normal billing procedures and work on this game, if you can't do that, tell us so that we can move on please.

[Sonea]

As a player who at one time had 2 accounts totalling five, yes 5 subscriptions because I had so much stuff gathered that I needed some place to store it all, I do have a couple of thoughts on plots and accounts and 10-item consignment. First, just to be current, I'm down to three subscriptions now.. at least I think I am what with the impossibility of shutting off accounts through PayPal.
- 10 item consignment is way too low. The limit was raised because players had such heartburn over it, so why go back to 10?
- 10 item consignment means that I am going to have to either sell stuff, try to give it away (which is not as easy as it sounds), or have a place to store it.. like a larger vault .. or a nice big plot with LOTS of room for houses. Ok, in my case several plots.
- Since I have a number of subscriptions already and they are spread over two accounts, it might be nice to have a single, ancient account as long as I can combine the two that I have into one.
- A single ancient account with XX plots would need more than 1 concurrent user. You see, there is me, me as my alt when I'm having a split personality, and my elfling who might all want to be awake at the same time. I know of other families who all play together and would need a similar >1 concurrent user arrangement.
- Don't tie the ancient account to a 6 month limit. Let a person subscribe to ancient at the monthly renew or 3 month option in order to spread the cost yet still pay the higher price. Why penalize someone who wants to be involved in an ancient way by making them pay all up front?

Keep up the good work. May Istaria smile on your efforts!

*smiles a Soni smile and waves*
Sonea

[Teto Frum]

Greetings once again. After reading several of horizons , responses, i want to say i understand the need for more money generation. Trust me i say nothing without the good of istaria in mind, i was a game hopper until landing here. This is home now. But how the demand for more money be figured out when noone really knows how much money there currently is coming in. How many players are currently playing for free that want to pay. If your figures are on current money taken in its way short of whats real. I have 2 accounts and for past 6 months have not paid a cent, despite repeated messages sent to ei. So fix billing so i can pay and theres 26 more dollars for you already every month, i changed email address and then could no longer pay. I think first get it so everyone who wants to pay can. then lets sit down with all active accounts(or representation from each shard) and figure out whats best for all involved. We all want to keep our world running and growing, so for this im happy to see not only this thread but CS actually responding. But i for one dont want to run by the nicest plot in the realm and wonder wow , geez wonder what he/she does for a living, instead of thinking wow what a great player it must have took to get gold to buy and labour to build. Again ty for the input , the life preserver and lets hope we all get back onboard weve been treading water way to long.

[Steelclaw]

After some thought about the pricing scheme I proposed, I felt that it was overly complex. Consequently, I'd like to revise it.

Two subscription options:

Entry-level ("Basic", "Introductory", "Casual" ... "Gnerphed"?)
Cost: $7-8
Characters: 1
Consignment slots: 2 (assuming that follows the current 'global' pool -- total_slots = consignment_slots * number_of_imperial_consigners)
Concurrent logins: 1
Plots: 0

Standard-level ("Gifted". "Full")
Cost: $13-15 (I like 13.45, I'm sure everyone would like 12.95.)
Characters: 5
Consignment slots: 10
Concurrent logins: 1
Plots: 1
Choose zero or one of the following options for $5-7 each:
1 extra plot
5 extra characters
20 consignment slots

6-month and 12-month commitments qualify for some percentage discount off the total price.

The option allows a player to add on a single 'benefit' from a second subscription without having to pay full price, hopefully enticing those 'on the wall' to take advantage of it. Restricting it to zero or one prevents abuse and reduces the potential loss to Vi.

If an option is added to a long-term subscription that is already in progress, its cost is pro-rated. If it is terminated early, the option stays in effect till the end of the term. The option may be swapped out at any time.

The low-end subscription can not own a plot. It serves two purposes:
1) Allow a introductory or casual player to play.
2) Allow a standard subscription to add an additional concurrent login.
It should, however, be upgradeable to a full subscription.

Note that the "Basic" account is slightly more expensive than one of the options and that a concurrent login is not an option. That is based on the assumption that bandwidth (to carry the connection) is more expensive than the disk used to store additional character data, or the developer time to add plots.

[Cyp]

I am from Unity and i am generally ready to pay the 14.95 for the Gifted Subscription.

The question is, what do Horizons give me back?

1. Unity Accounts are restored.
2. What are the main goals in feature updates (i prefer a new client, which fits the actual grafik-standard, like Ultima Online, they released a new Client based on the old community and databases...)?
3. The Plot situation: Plots should not be purchased as a single item. But the art of the Plot should be consider become: One Plot per Race (current Human and Dragon, but you have anounced to implement Plots specialy for Dwarfs and Pixies...). You can add some in-game requierement to get the Plots like "you need a lvl 20 dragon to get a lair..."

[Death-knell]

I have to say I really dislike the new payment scheme. I have 1 account with 5 characters on it. I really wouldn't mind going down to one but these changes happen so badly. I would only want to keep my main character DK. But is that fair to punish all the veterans so?
Will you reimburse those who have spent weeks and weeks working on alts only to be told, "sorry, we are going to fine you indefinitely to keep those characters"?
Thats just not right!!!!

Now I wouldn't mind too much being able to buy a second plot, of course theres nothing worth buying right now. When plots are reclaimed will there be another auction?

[Braun]

The "a la carte" features aren't a bad idea to help you generate some revenue; otherwise, just keep the system as is with a slight price increase. I love this game, but I wouldn't pay more than $14.95 per account. And I'd be furious if, after keeping all of my accounts thru the good times and the bad, I had to give up anything.
I do want to thank you guys for reaching out to the entire community to get input... it really means a lot.

[Drevar]

Quite funny that as I logged out yesterday I was going to suggest a sub price increase to 14.95. Missed the boat by about an hour, heh.

Anyway, I feel the suggested first two tiers + the trial are enough. Higher tiers should just be package deals for 3/6/12 months with perhaps a small incentive thrown in for paying up front-perhaps a shoulder buddy or emblem and title. Not sure if the tech would allow it, but maybe a special plot decoration option that only appears in the build list to someone who has paid a 3/6/12 month subscription package could be added.

I would suggest that the Basic be allowed a plot, but restricted to a small or guild (non-master) as Frat suggested. There are hundreds of smalls around the world that have never been used, so a Basic account would not take anything away from a higher paying customer. There are also many guild communities that are hard to manage due to churn or lack of players. Without better tools for the master plot owner to manage the guild community, we are stuck needing extra subs to manage them. A lower cost option would be much more palatable than requiring a full sub with unneeded features. Note that these sub-plots are already tied up through ownership of the master plot and so do not take away anything from other playing customers.

Drev

[valimar]

First of all I am so glad that again Horizons has a chance to survive.
Who still wants to say that Horizons is not a special game?
Why are there so many people who after more than 4 1/2 years after release still love this game?
That is the point.
Please listen to that player who has 4 accounts and has 3 plots and a lair.
Please listen to that family, where grandfather, grandmother, children and grandchildren play together.
There are so many different things and possibilities, that noone gets bored.
We cannot deny that most of us love our plots and lairs and love craft.
Even those who dont like craft in the beginning, start to like it after a while.
So please whatever you want to change, dont change the most important parts that kept players in the game so long.
Let every new player have the possibility to sell the stuff he makes and have a plot.
Otherwise you introduce a new group of beggars in the game, or players who constantly try to sell their stuff on market.
A new player finds out very fast that he can make money on selling the stuff he makes.
If we can only sell 10 items per account on an imperial consigner there will be hardly any economy, because people will loose interest in selling stuff.
Dont you remember that in the beginning we also only could put 10 items on the consigner? I really dont understand why you want to change that back.
And what about our own consigner? Can we put there even less items? And are they added to the items we have on the imperial consigner?
The craft, plots, lairs en economy is what players kept in the game for such a long time, so please be very carefull with it.
You better have a lot of players, who pay little than a few, who pay a lot.

[Spartikus]

First off:

It's nice to see that the community can respond to such significant changes with a fairly open mind.

As I said before, these games are business. Unlike the management of the past Virtrium is not pretending that things can just go on blindly without stabalizing the finances. I think this is a very mature proposal and it's good to see people giving it a fair shake.

Virtrium needs cashflow. These proposals are just some ideas that can help them with that. IF the ideas dont appeal to you, please rememebr to offer them some viable alternatives. They need your help.

Good luck.

[Kessedrian]

The only thing I don't like about the plans is the consigner limit. As has already been stated, 10 slots is 3 slots short of a suit of armor. 15 slots would be acceptable (would have room for weapons), 20 would be ideal (weapons and jewelry), more would prolly be unnecessary but I'm sure we could find ways to fill it.

Horizons' economy is already in sad shape. Money serves little purpose beyond portal fare, so why hurt it even more by not letting players sell things to each other?

[Bateluer]

I'll just add my 2 cents as well.

Most of the higher subs are meaningless to me, I won't be paying more than 14.95 per month, my limit for any MMO. Having said that, the 14.95 plan should include everything that will allow me to enjoy the game, including enough character slots, plot ownership, and consignment slots. At the moment, it looks like it includes all of that, which is good enough for me.

My two primary concerns are with the basic sub not getting any consignment slots and the creation of an environment where money buys better items. For the first item, I think it will be a detriment for a new player trying to get into the game if they can't sell of of their crafted items or loot effectively. Having a lack of in game currency can be very frustrating and cause people to quit. Even if its just a few consignment slots, 3 would be enough for the basic sub.

Edit - Though, the last time I was in Hz, the consigners were basically useless because the population was so low. I am trying to think a head a little bit to when the population is higher. Maybe an interim solution of some sort, I'm no sure.

Secondly, the creation of an environment where money buys special treatment. These billing changes don't necessarily create such an environment, however, they could easily be seen as the first step towards creation of such an environment. And thats a slippery slope you don't want to slide down.

[cgacfox]

I am not sure how to price the ability for an additional concurrent log-in, and I cannot figure out how that would work anyway. Can you control two different characters from one computer with one monitor and one keyboard at the same time??? If you need two computers to play two characters then you may as well stick with two accounts (just as it is now) in order to play more than one character.

This is where I know what I am talking about. At one time my whole family played at the same time. My 2 kids, my husband, and myself. We needed 4 concurrent logons to achieve this. That is why I have one account with 4 subs. 3 of the 4 of us own plots even though I am the only one that really plays any more. I don't want to lose their plots because it acts as extra storage for our guild. There are couples players and family players out there that would need this feature in order to play at the same time.

Since I am the only player any more (my son gets on rarely - found Xbox Live!) I would be willing to have 1 account for me with up to 5 alts, 2 concurrent logons so if he decides to help in my RoP or ARoP he can (I created a new draggie a few weeks ago), and pay for 3 plots. So the al a carte method might work better in my situation. However, I am not sure how the plot reclamation will work. We currently have 3 plots in a community for our guild. If I cancel a couple of accounts what will happen to those plots? They are fully built on and allow all guild members to use them. Do they go back to the community still fully built or do all buildings and everything in them get destroyed first?

Hopefully Virtrium will post their final thoughts on all of this feedback before making a final decision as to how the billing will work. After all, the billing is supposed to go live this week!

[Deth]

What if they got the webpage consigner search to work with player own consigners. Would that easy some peoples minds about the consignment limits?

[Pharcellus]

A La Carte Features: This is a tough one. We want to provide flexibility, but at the same time we don't want to see a drop in revenue. If 25% of players have two subscriptions because they want to have two plots and we change the pricing so that an additional plot is half of a normal subscription, we just reduced the amount of money we bring in each month. That's bad for Horizons because it means we have less money to add people to the team. We love the flexibility of a la carte, but want to be careful. We are considering changes to subscriptions as a way to increase revenue so we can bump up the development staff. It would be a serious disservice to Horizons if our changes ended up dropping revenue.

There's an old saying that goes something like: 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing.

As far as I am concerned, there's just no way I would ever consider going back up to 4 subscriptions at this point. Granted I am not GM anymore, but even so, I would find ways to reduce my sub load rather than spend that kind of money on HZ. I would, however, buy whateveer I needed a la carte, as long as it was within my budget. No matter what, my budget would determine my number of subscriptions or whatever.

[Salis]

Since a lot of concerns where already raised about the outdatedness and such of Horizons we simply cannot offered to charge more for basic accounts than Premium Games like WOW or LoTRO.
The consigment stuff I would scrape immediately, you really do not want to mess with such and everyday thing as the player market, everyone and every character equal. Whatever is setup now will suffice, you can have more with personal owned consigner shops.

So I would go with an Ã** la carte system.

Basic subscription: $7.95 (almost half of the top games out there)

1 concurrent login
5 character slots
1 small plot (size 25 * 25 or 32 * 32)
1 Recall shard

Perks:

Extra plot
1 small plot (size 25*25 or 32*32) $2.95
1 large plot or a lair $4.95

Total number of plots allowed: concurrent logins + 1 (allows for guild plot or so)

Extra Vault space (always welcome, added to whatever you quested in game already)
1000 bulk / 30 stacks: $0.95 (Max 10 and payable per concurrent login!)

Extra character slots
Per 5 character slots: $1.95

Extra Recall Shard or Gifted Recall Shard (Payable per concurrent login whichever version, combos not possible)

Recall shard: $1.95

or

Gifted Recall Shard: $3.95

Remarks: Recall could be changed to inventory shard items with zero bulk, to be used in the same way as recall is now.
We could allow for a Gifted version allowing binding to a spot without a shrine.
An extra recall allows for less time wasted = more fun playing, or even lesser time wasted with a gifted one due to the ability to attune to wherever you want to return instantly (think plot building)

Extra subscription: $5.95
1 concurrent login
5 character slots
1 Recall Shard

Reduction can be offered for Multi month subs
3 month subscription: 2.5% reduction
6 month subscription: 5% reduction
9 month subscription: 7.5% reduction
12 month subscription: 10% reduction

And also 1 dollar reduction when opting for a automatic renewal.

Salis