The meaning of Success

[Poddu]

I've been trying to wrap my brain around what VI envisions for this game. It seems clear that they are working from some sort of mission plan. This was indicated in Ophelea's piece in GamersInfo.net and seems to have been confirmed by the aggressive pricing plan announced by Vi. I have to question, however, whether the players and the management will have the same criteria for judging whether things are going well.

Management wants 10,000 subscribed players. Players just want "their" game back. Can these two objectives co-exist in the months and (possibly) years to come? I would imagine it depends on each individual's tolerance.

I, for one, find crowded games annoying because of the innate competitiveness which naturally results from finite resources within the game. This results in many typical and common situations which most MMORPG players have experienced: The higher level player in a lower level spawn spot two-hitting many kills and emptying the spawn area while you struggle to eak out a kill or two; A team of people rushing around trying to gobble up resources because they are only playing the game for themselves; etc, etc.

With a small co-operative group of players, this type of activity is minimized. But with, quite literally, plans for thousands of new players coming on-board, what is the expectation? How long will it be before the chat channels begin to fill with cries of "kill-stealer" or "Hey, I was here first"?

It seems inevitable that, if management succeeds in their goals, this is the way things will go. If you spend some time in any of the other MMORPGs out there, you quickly become aware that many 'new' players look for the "p'lvl" option. "Hey, can someone p'lvl me?" There is also the ubiquitous "Does anyone have <X amount> gold I can have to get my <insert needed item/skill here> "? These expectations, among others - all focused on becoming 'uber' as quickly as possible, are common features of the current state of MMORPG players. Observations that Horizons is "not that type of game" are a function of 20-20 hindsight, which will not make much of an impression on new players until they have become disappointed, created some mischief, and, ultimately, leave the game. To put it another way, without a little forethought on the desirability of this behavior, "There goes the neighborhood."

Thoughts that the 10,000 new subscriptions won't be this type of player seem to be wishful thinking. This game has been in existence since 12/08/03 according to GamersInfo.net. How many have recently investigated the game and come back? A few hundred? Where else does Vi expect to get such a larger playerbase from?

As for the need for a "big-bucks" long-term development team (apparently mostly outsourced according to the GamersInfo article) necessitating the subscription increase; this would seem to indicate only that management wants to make lots of changes to the game. And it is these changes which, so far, are only known to them, and which brings into question, "What do they envision?" Are we already talking about an expansion pack? The subscription increase goes into effect immediately. Surely, this indicates more than going through the already compiled bug list and any already known issues [Stop calling me Shirley].

Like many here, I've played a lot of MMORPGs and have let go of many characters in the past to which I had become attached. I'm pretty much a 'Johnny-come-lately' to Horizons, only discovering the game in early 2006 and having no high level characters with a deep investment of time and ego. This makes it perhaps easier for me to be dispassionate about the game, although it's always hard to separate the subjective from the objective.

So, hopefully, I am entirely wrong about what the future holds!

I will not address my objections to the new subscription system in this thread as management asked that those of us who consider them evil corporate types keep the negativity confined to e-mail posts.

[Vaz]

IMO, the success of an MMORPG is like the physical beauty of a person...

Imitating a popular "standard" set by others, trying to look like something you're not = phail.

Embracing and accentuating one's own unique beauty, doing well in your own niche instead of trying to convert to a different one, and upholding that despite societal pressures = win.

[Lunhilde]

MEh, there used to be cries of Killstealing and all those things you described here in HZ when the servers were larger, then again when the servers were merged. We survived just fine and the fact that the community is still around shows that, though yah we stepped on eachothers toes and peeved eachother off every once in awhile, the design of the games makes it so that everyone still needs to work together at least once in awhile, and those who do not, well, why bother them? They can do everything themsleves, let them go at it. But ya I certainly remember days of the channeler being camped with the wisp trains... It didn't harm the community.. in fact it made it stronger, as blacklisting is still a viable option for jerks...

[Sunuke]

These servers can't handle 10k subscribers for sure. I'm one of those players who has been paying since day one and I feel like they betrayed me and everybody else who has stayed along for the ride waiting for some new development.

I'm really dissapointed in this development

[Lunhilde]

And i wanted to add - in a game where most of the necessary things for your character come from your fellow players, there is naturally going to be a lot less player inter-hostility. Well, save maybe between pure crafters and pure adventurers, but the pure adventurer crowd is likely nearly gone from HZ and may or may not return. There is a balancing system between crafted versus looted here; unlike other MMOs it is a touch backwards here - crafted is usually far better/easier than anything you can loot. So since you need to be at least marginally social here to thrive, the omgbbq types who grief and insult and etc as a playstyle will only find themselves not having as much fun as they alienate the playerbase.

But let us not become a clique. The beauty of the community is that it was always open to newcomers. don't close any doors - even those 'leetdoodz'using ur and kk can sometimes have amazing things to share, amazing loyalty, and razor sharp minds coupled with surprising kindness.

Some of em just really hate typing.

[Creme]

Amazingly accurate post Lunhilde and very well put.

This brings to mind something I read in a different thread, and I'll quote but leave out the poster's name.

We need many more customers, but as little more jerks as possible. Sure, they will come, sure they have to be destroyed.

This type of mentality begs the question, a jerk in whose eyes? What criteria constitutes a jerk. As far as being "destroyed" that sounds like a player will be "forced" to leave or griefed if they don't fit a particular group's paradigm of what the community should be and what it should consist of.

You might as well post on the HZ information page, L33T need not apply, powerlevelers need not apply, hardcore gamers need not apply, etc.

If the goal is to encourage growth and new players, I very much doubt attitudes such as "destroying" those that don't fit within a particular's group ideal player is going to do much for the game.

Seriously, don't waste people's time in trying out a game if you're going to allow closed-communities and players that want to drive out anyone that doesn't think, speak, or play as they think is "proper".

[Mairynn Nalnair]

These servers can't handle 10k subscribers for sure. I'm one of those players who has been paying since day one and I feel like they betrayed me and everybody else who has stayed along for the ride waiting for some new development.

I'm really dissapointed in this development

They havent done anything to you except offering you the possibily to keep on playing the game. if you are not happy what that then thats your problem.

[Digita]

As a previous subscriber to Horizons, as well as previous and current subscriber to other games, the Management has a tough job ahead of them.

What i absolutely loved about Horizons was two-fold. I loved the ability to be anything you wanted to be-- the multiple adventure classes (albeit at a price -- rating) and the crafting. In all my journeys to new lands, i have to date not found a single game that even comes to close to matching the absolutely BRILLIANT and innovative crafting possible in this game.

While there are other games now on the horizon with player built communities and guild houses, and player determined economy (release dates vary from 2008 to unknown), this game still has the best crafting bar none and will continue to do so based on what i've read on those as-yet unreleased games.

However, i also remember the bickering between adventure classes and crafters in the past, with the adventure classes resenting their dependence upon crafters. Part of this fix was to introduce area tiers for crafting along with monsters of that tier "guarding" the nodes. That would foster a co-dependence between adventurers and crafters. As you said, end result was that many pure adventure players left the game over time.

I know Management needs income to succeed at this game. Everyone needs to eat, pay bills, support a family. In order to do more with this game, the income coming into this game needs to be sufficient to program/code new stuff in to the game. The difficulty comes with keeping the interest of new players by putting out new content quickly enough, similar to the dilemna facing all MMORPG's, which means a greater influx of dollars is needed to hire more people. The alternative is to have old timers wondering why (even if unfairly) why 3 people can't make changes fast enough.

I think the Management needs to play to its strengths and focus on that. One the game needs stability and performance improvements. The UI in this game is still one of the best out there as well. The old "in game events" by Game Masters is also a strength. Bring that back. The crafting (if finished) would be a draw as well.

However, to entice new players and retain them, they will need to lessen the level grind (at least for 1st time adventurers) and introduce more quest based leveling. Most new (and newer than HZ successful) games listened to their player base enough to reduce level "grinding."

Player driven economy is also a strength (but there should be options for those purist adventurers as well).

Bottom line, existing players have to have patience, and be open to new players and realize that in retaining these players, they have a chance at genuine new world growth and future game content. Any game is going to have people begging for power leveling and for starter gold. We had it 3-6 months into HZ launch, and have it every time someone new comes along. There is a gentle way to discourage such "whines" and a totally off-putting way.

Change is inevitable for growth. Deal with it. Prepare for it. Is it better to have a game with some future change, or have the lights turned out forever?

[Sunuke]

They havent done anything to you except offering you the possibily to keep on playing the game. if you are not happy what that then thats your problem.

The problem I'm having is that their higher billing is preventing me to play.

I would have to sell some of the plots or lairs I have worked so hard on to make it doable.

Is that how they should treat their loyal customers?

[Creme]

They need cash to operate, I'm sure many subs were being played for free and not having any real idea of how many paying subs they will wind up with, they will need to do what they can to generate enough income to operate and develop new content, fix bugs, etc.

It will be a time of hard choices for some and I sympathize for the decisions you will have to make.

[Mairynn Nalnair]

The problem I'm having is that their higher billing is preventing me to play.

I would have to sell some of the plots or lairs I have worked so hard on to make it doable.

Is that how they should treat their loyal customers?

GRANDFATHER SUBSCRIPTION
Temporarily available for previous players of Horizons. Can not use A La Carte Upgrades.
Monthly Automatic Renewal - $12.95
1 Plot or Lair
10 Consignment Slots Per Imperial Consigner
5 Character Slots
1 Concurrent Login

GRANDFATHER SUBSCRIPTION BLOCK RENEWAL
UPDATE: We are discussing now.


Since we dont know what the prices for GRANDFATHER SUBSCRIPTION BLOCK RENEWAL will be is that a bit unfair me thinks.

[Hal`cyon Sskyler]

The definition of success for Horizons is for it to continue to exist and be enjoyable for it's players.

The definition of success for Virtrium is to continue to grow the game and be able to support its staff.

The details in obtaining success lie in only one measurement: income. Cash flow into the game promotes continued development, continued development brings about increase cash flow (in the form of new subscriptions) which in turn brings about more opportunities to continue development.

This all sounds stupidly basic, but really there isn't much else to consider. All Virtrium can do is develop the game to increase subs using the resources at their disposal. That means doing what will have the greatest net positive impact on subscriptions without taking up too much development time given any system's constraints and limitations.

Virtrium knows this, players should know this, and any argument on the subject is not about the meaning of success, but what can best be done to improve the game as a whole.

[Hal`cyon Sskyler]

The problem I'm having is that their higher billing is preventing me to play.

I would have to sell some of the plots or lairs I have worked so hard on to make it doable.

Is that how they should treat their loyal customers?

Loyal customers can still pay the same prices as they have in the past. The "Grandfathered" account option is the same as it was before and as long as you do not cancel you will continue to pay the same amount of money each month.

[Kulamata]

Horizons was not and will not be ruined by 10,000 subscribers. When the positive changes to dragon play and the tutorial/low level experience were made, retention shot up from 2% to 58%, and the subscriber base went from ~5500 to 10,000. The servers were not overloaded then... and play experience was obviously satisfactory as the increase was continuing.

As an aside, 10,000 was breakeven for Tulga operations, (not counting the expenses for the new game being developed in parallel) and sadly made the game salable.

With players' word of mouth, positive game changes, and a return to Hz's original goal as the "Game for the Rest of Us" I see no reason at all why 10,000 subscribers again is impossible, and experience tells us that the servers are up to the load. (It was generally accepted that the server programming was very good, and that the client program needed major work. Note that some client improvements have been pushed to Blight recently.)

I think most players who left this last year did so because the game seemed destined to sadly wither with no updates and because of unfixed bugs, and the notorious billing issues, and the ever decreasing number of players. All of these conditions can be and in some cases are being fixed. Certainly billing and updates are being addressed, and I'd expect bug fixes very soon, as Virtrium clearly understands the priorities.

[Justa Mirage]

Horizons was not ruined per say, but was loaded up with the new face of MMORPG players: The instant gratification ones.

Players tired of EQ, AC, and DAoC, UO and the grind that went with them, came to HZ with a new hope that the game would not be another "grind monster / area" for levels, but a world rich with quests and rewards.

They found neither because the game was half polished. Quests were few and far between or non-existant. There were no town marshalls, ROP, Trophies, or "mega high level multi part weapon / armor" quests. Players, instead of just playing tag with mobs, decided to see if they could find new ways to accelerate their climb to max level. They used exploits, cheats, and found "bugs" that were intended but not expected to be used in such a fashion as to accelerate leveling.

When AE started whacking classes with the nerf bat, those that saw the "staunch the bleeding by removing game features" started bailing the game, and in 6 months, bankruptsy happens. Too many bad decisions on how to deal with the highly adaptive players that found every loophole, every combo trick, to get to the max level.

Tulga (a reformed AE) picked up what was left, merged servers, and striped the land by level. (which I though was stupid), but in the same breath, they added content, quests, events, and actually the game looked decent, but still the damage was done, and the game never acheived growth, only hatred for the mismanagement of the game.

EI (They did... um... er... nothing) for a year

Then Virtrium came in and yanked the game back from EI. This is a good thing. It means that the train that was derailed by EI is now back on track to receive updates, fixes, and a little TLC.

The problem people are seeing is the train is heading down a track that is being built as fast as can be. Will the train reach the end of the tracks and derail because of the lack of funds? or will the flow of income and donations possibly keep the track built for the train to continue running.

The "horse before the carraige" comes to mind. We know we are going to pay for services. We know we are going to be paying for upgrades / patches / fixes. We know we will be paying for new content.

With Horizon's past, there are a LOT of people that see "business as usual, don't trust them. I won't give them another cent." and "Other MMORPGs charge the same as what Virtrium is asking" so here is the big question:

Will we see a game fixed up and built that will equal what other MMORPGS offer? or will we be playing the same game with the present game engine, slow / laggy performance, and lack of content that it's presently in?

[Rayth]

Geez, 10k subscribers includes people with multiple accounts. Concurrent logins during peak probably won't even reach 5k. There are multiple servers. So you might see like 2k people online during peak. That's doesn't seem like much to me.

I remember and love the days, on Shadow, where I would log in and get 10 customers hitting me up for my tailoring and our guild had 10-15 people online. The trade channel was hoping and I could actually get people wanting to make stuff.

Man people already running to the ledge when they put out a subscription number that would allow them to get a decent developement staff in-game.

Come on what do you people want? Do you want to be 1 of 200 people online with the same crappy bugs or do you actually want a community again?

You get subscription costs more inline with existing MMO's and people want to jump off a ledge... Seriously, do you want this game to live or just die happy with your cheap subscription fee's you were paying with NO development? You should have been insulted for paying 8.95 before.

[Vaz]

So you might see like 2k people online during peak. That's doesn't seem like much to me.

Sounds fine.

Community quality decreases in inverse proportion to increase of population.

With lower numbers you have a community; with higher numbers you have a cacophony.

[Digita]

I don't think a community is necessarily dependent upon lower numbers. I remember when HZ was thriving and people were working in concert to "free a race" or to build a bridge, or a destroyed craft station. If the management manages to play to their strengths and emphasize the differences between HZ and other games, and to focus on community building and bond building events, this becomes a non-issue.

Also, it makes a huge difference in the feel of a game and the ease with which a community is built if there is no "us vs. them". There is no evil side to play in this game. Every race is working against the Aegis.

If a population dwindles enough, it's more of a mob-acracy, where if you don't believe and act exactly the way the majority does, you are shunned and pushed out.

bottom line, change is needed for the game to grow and succeed instead of people running around in place with no new stuff. If you want the lights to stay on, there has to be some give and take, some accomodation made to encourage new gamers.

[Vahrokh]

This type of mentality begs the question, a jerk in whose eyes? What criteria constitutes a jerk

Play WoW for a day and you won't need further descriptions or criteria to discern them, at first sight.

Horizons was not and will not be ruined by 10,000 subscribers.

Plus, the 10,000 subscribers would go in new and multiple servers as / if needed, not 7k on Chaos and 3k on Order.

[Sunuke]

Loyal customers can still pay the same prices as they have in the past. The "Grandfathered" account option is the same as it was before and as long as you do not cancel you will continue to pay the same amount of money each month.

They did not intend to let that run for a long time.

If I can stay for $10.95 a month it would be totally different cause then I'd stay. and pay for 6 months for 7 accounts