Tokens for plot reclaims?

[Nayuaka]

They would be taking NOTHING away from anyone on a live server that the live players currently have if the plot token thing were enacted. Only after there is some kind of balance restored, would I think there could be true talk about fair chances on buying open plots.

That is untrue. Tokens in their current form would take away a lot. It would take away a players possible chance of getting their first ever plot even though they've been waiting months for a plot reclaim just because someone bid a token. Even if that player had saved up all they could, they could never beat that one token. That is not fair and it taking away a lot from the server. It was different when there was a merge and everyone got a token. Then everyone was in the same boat but this is not the case. This is giving the few an unfair avantage over players just like themselves.

Of course, having said that I do not think that Unity players should get nothing but there are other options that would be better I think. As was said before by others, I think getting either a token worth what they paid for their plot (is that even possible?), or money that is the equivalent of what they paid for their plot would be better. Not a token that would completly squish your fellow players hopes of getting anything if you decided you wanted that lair.

I'm sorry that Unity players lost everything. I really am and I can't imagine how sad it is but you arn't the only ones playing on the server. Everyone deserves a chance at what is being offered.

And once again like others I will state that we havn't even heard anything so all that's been said might just be a moot point.

[Vahrokh]

The plot reclamations should be handled as an auction. If you want a large plot, then start making money now....

Ok, about time I start making money, it's since Dec 2006 I don't bother to...

Well... Why give a token because they come from Unity ? They also had 3 years to earn money there.

We had one year less, it might sound like a very short amount of time for grinding money, but it's not.
I love this: from "poor Unity sods we'll welcome you..." to "but now it's about MY turf we talk, have them die in a fire!"
And I wanted to quit WoW...
I don't really care to get a plot, despite I owned two 101 x 101 @13g plots myself and I did not cheat the 26g to buy them, but the attitude saddens me.

If there is a transfer, then there's a good possibility that nothing will have been lost, other than their time in game (and plot/lair location). Saying they have lost everything is overdramatic, as only time will tell, and a successful transfer, of what, if any, their losses entail.

Something is lost, like i.e. "just" all our years old friends (no 120 x 120 plot is getting my friends back), our guilds, our places we built with so much effort.

Our towns, our bridges. Yes, "our" memories are lost. When I see the tunnels in the northern isles I won't recall building blocks, but I'll recall all my friends I won't ever meet again.

If nothing would be lost, when the shards got merged, Horizons would not have lost 50% of the playerbase in few months.

I suspect that the number of Unity players wishing to buy a lair is far smaller than the number of current players anxious to buy large plots and lairs at a minimal price and strip them for Novians.

The number of Unity player is possibly below 100 and not too many got a dragon. I see a lot of smoke for so little meat, really.

If they were naked, vaultless, everything-less, this would be a hugely significant loss;

I am bothered on where to put all the stuff, I'll have a bank I'll take months to empty (and where do I put the things? Vendor all?), I have my scale sets in bank too and had consigner etc. with more stuff.

but not the end of the world, especially considering that no one but GN had anything to do with their losses,

GN has not all the faults in the world. For being an Italian company (which usually are a joke and managed by shady clowns) and with the non existant network structures in Italy when they started, and for having ZERO ways to impact or fix the game, they still did decently enough.
The game just failed, that's it. I have worse support in WoW, continuous servers unattended shutdown and lag etc. but players there don't quit.
As for players being fine coming back naked: no, all want at least their vault (I have all my 2004 rares which ARE part of my hoard hence part of my character). About 50% or so were fine to come back without anything else and I am one of them, but these ways to minimize us like we are beggars "something is better than nothing" is pretty one sided and even rude.

Well, keep in mind that the plot reclaims are being held up for the Unity issue. Since Unity will have been restored (IF it can be done) long before the plot reclaims can even be attempted (another project that I suspect will be 'iffy' and take months by the time they get around to it), all of the Unity players will have their cash back from 3 years of playtime and a (few?) month(s) to re-establish themselves on their new server.

For what I have read, the Unity import and the reclaim will be very close each to the other.
Let's assume I get imported today: I start somewhere, my vault saying I have 10000000 tons of stuff so I can't use it. My disc is full.
If I take my craft sets (I have a lot) off bank I can't put it in again and then I can't carry materials with enough capacity left.

At this point I am supposed to:

It doesn't seem like there will be any need for tokens since everybody will be on equal footing

but having lost more than one year and having nowhere to stuff what I grind anyway, I fail to see "equal footing".

I've seen some posters say there will be only a few, but it could be as high as 1000?

No way. In fact the reason why Vi are not going to create some special "mechanism" like i.e. an Unity Island is exactly because it's really just some dozens left.

This will upset the Unity players as they won't be able to compete with players that have siphoned the game (either legit or illegit) for gold / mithril and if a Unity player wanted a particular lair / plot, they would hope a native shard player doesn't come by and plop down 20-50 gold for the plot, and not even feel a dent in the pocket book.

Yes, plopping 50g is really a lot, I recall I was one of the richest (of those who did not exploit that is) around and for me 8g were a big thing, 13g for a plot very hard. 50g? Way overkill.

Having said all of that, I hope VI can come to a classy and balancing way to allow Unity players to come back to the game, and also have the reclamation after they have accomidated themselves into the shard they choose.

Seeing the opinions here, the option would be: "come naked and stripped and we'll help you" (which is indeed much better than what happens in WoW).
Imho for some would work, but like 70% Unity players won't bother returning playing just to start from zero.
While it might sound fun to slap them into 25 x 25 plots, the players still so "obtuse" to want to come back are the long timers, those who usually earned big plots full of T4+ machines and dozens silos.
Now, picture a 600 days played character with top (for the time) craft gear willing to start on Chaos (many won't want to RP, and for some like me, going in another "desert" shard is not fun). He got novians enough to fill a 80 x 80 plot with T4 machines including some big house etc. Now? In a 25 x 25 he can fit the house and that's it.
Is he going to keep playing or just think: "well, there's at least 2 major MMOs coming in 2008, sponsored by companies as big as EA and costing like this game I can't progress in any way in. *Tosses Horizons*"
Naturally each of those players have several friends just waiting on them for news about the game and will act accordingly. I.e. I have some old guild mates who gave their MSN to me to keep them updated, others sent me PMs about the same reason. All of them were incredible crafters, my best friend left had ALL the craft schools to 100.
What if I tell them: "don't bother, all you will be able to do is to kill some Ruxus"? Because it's basically all what she would be able to do here, and she hates grinding mobs as much she loves tailoring.

I'm sorry that Unity players lost everything. I really am and I can't imagine how sad it is but you arn't the only ones playing on the server. Everyone deserves a chance at what is being offered.

They might be those required for the game to stay afloat, your future is not granted.
Don't spit on potential more game income, it really needs all the possible subscriptions and I foresee several Unity players changing their mind to return just by reading this thread.

A thread which is basically: "we don't really know anything, but we put both hands ahead, just in case".

[Zexoin]

Okay. I'm gonna say it clear and simple because some doesn't (or doesn't want to) understand what I meant.

I want Unity players to come on both NA shards. I want them to get back their inventory, vault, plot/lair novians, items in consigner or storage structure.
I want them to get a plot/lair on their new shards. BUT I want FAIRNESS. I think Tokens are not fair, because people from NA shards wouldn't have a chance to get the plot they want (if a former Unity-player bids on it with a token).
But not giving anything to Unity players is not fair either. So there should be a compensation, in a way or another, that guarantee fairness during plot reclamations. I'd agree if gold pieces were given to Unity player, for the money they couldn't grind during the last year. I am sure the devs will find a solution which most will be pleased with.

But I'm tired of the negativity coming from a few members of this forum. So I won't post here anymore, regarding that problem.

[Vahrokh]

I'd agree if gold pieces were given to Unity player, for the money they couldn't grind during the last year.

Gold is worthless.

If they offered 100g or a 101 x 101 plot, how many would get the money and... do what in the subsequent years?

[awdz]

Quote:
Originally Posted by awdz
They would be taking NOTHING away from anyone on a live server that the live players currently have if the plot token thing were enacted. Only after there is some kind of balance restored, would I think there could be true talk about fair chances on buying open plots.

That is untrue. Tokens in their current form would take away a lot. It would take away a players possible chance of getting their first ever plot even though they've been waiting months for a plot reclaim just because someone bid a token.

My point was that they (players currently on live servers) cannot get a plot now because of no plot reclaims.

My personal feeling is that Unity folks should be reestablished in game first, then general plot reclaims happen. I do not see giving Unity folks tokens as taking away another players' chance of getting a plot, only *possibly* delaying it a little, IF it comes to that. But then again, I play on Order, I don't know if all the plots (down to the 25x25) have been swallowed up on Chaos. If that is the case, there is likely a need for more plots in general, and that is still an issue independent of the tokens issue. There are plenty of small to medium plots open on Order.

[gopher65]

I have two issues with the "logic" that people are using to make their fallacious (is that the right word?) arguments in this thread:

1)I think people are overestimating the number of unity players that are going to be joining Chaos/Order (remember, there are two shards? Not just one). I'm thinking... 50 people. Maybe 100. Probably every one of them with a plot/lair or 3, but that's still not a huge number. Heck it could be 25 people for all we know (that seems a likely number to me based on Unity's former population, and the fact that 1.5 years has gone by and only the crazies are left). Regardless of the actual number, we aren't looking at thousands of people, or even hundreds of people. We will be counting the new Unitarian accounts in single digit baker's dozens.

2) I think you are underestimating the number of nice plots that are currently either available or will be available on Chaos Order. Right now in Aiya I can count 3 plots (maybe *maybe* 4) that are currently in use. And those are the prettiest plots in the game, with a good location and some of the larger sizes. All the others are vacant awaiting reclamation. And that's just one little town. Harro is deserted, so is ML, so is half of Bristugo, and a decent section of Forest Guard, and every other good location on Chaos. And order has even less people.

Lairs are the same way from what I can tell. Mostly deserted.

So just how many plots do you think you're going to be needing to buy? Cause they way I figure things, even if Vi doesn't place any new plots/lairs in good locations, and even if they stop expanding the current small unoccupied plots (and they seem to be continuing with that policy by the looks of it) there will still be plenty of half decently sized and positioned plots for everyone.

So stop beating your head against this non-issue.

As far as I am concerned every Unity player should get 1 value-matched token for each plot they owned, with 100% novians (IE, a token from a plot with an imperial value of 1 gold will beat a 200 silver token. Just like the original token system). Also, plots and lairs need separate tokens because their coin values are different for similar properties.

[gopher65]

Thirdly, and I know I said I had only two points, you are ignoring the basic principles of an auction.

When I go to buy something on eBay, there are two thoughts that enter my mind:

1) I might *just* be able to bid 45 cents on that brand new Xbox360 and get it for that price. Ahahaha. Ahahahahahahaha. MUWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! So I'll bid 45 cents on it and try to buy it. I know I'll almost certainly lose, but that's cool, cause I don't lose anything if I do. (I think this is part of what people are worried about)

2) If I'm looking for something specific, I look for something in my price range that I think I will have a reasonable chance of winning against other bidders. I don't bid on a $300,000 prototype 4x2.25meter OLED 3 quintillion pixal computer screen because I know that I won't win it (not to mention the accompanying supercomputer I'd need as a graphics card for that thing 0_0. I'd need Steelclaw to come help me set it up). Instead I bid on a 20.1 inch LCD Sceptre widescreen (120 bucks:P), cause I know that I can outbid other people on that item.

Now maybe I'll bid on both of those items even knowing that I'm going to lose the expensive one (just because I can bid on multiple items with the same cash). But let us say that I only had 150 bucks total, and I could only bid once, on one item? Am I going to waste that bid on a screen that I will NEVER in a million years win, or will I place my bid on the screen that I have a realistic chance of winning?

I think the answer there is pretty clear. If the number of bids I can make is limited, then I will attempt to hedge my bets by bidding on auctions that I can win, rather than by widely speculating on insanely unlikely auctions. If I can make unlimited bids, then I will bid on everything cool on eBay and hope to win something expensive for cheap.

So I think the question we need to be asking ourselves is this: Do you want a cash bidding system where every single account can make a bid on every plot in the entire game, and then hope to luck out? Or would we prefer a system where people are forced by the game mechanics to make the most logical, reasonable choice they can, or risk losing their trump card (token) forever when the auctions end?

[Aamer Khan]

Shoot me if this bothers any of you...

We players on Order and Chaos have had plenty of chances to get plots. There are MANY open plots still. Perhaps not huge nor the most choice, but very nice ones all over. If we have not gotten one yet, shame on us. ( even if your a new player, getting the money to buy a small one is very easy )

If we are so selfish that we cannot see that others have not had that option, and that they deserve the same opportunity, then there is little point in reasoning with you.

Hey Devs... Do what YOU feel right and what YOU feel you can live with. Pay no further attention to the peanut gallery...

[Silverblaze]

I'm greatly offended by a great many people here.

#1 Arrogance: to say the game wont/cant make it without unity players. Last I checked the players who stayed were helping a bit too no? --- vahrokh's post

#2 That I'm in the peanut gallery???? Since when are the forums not for collecting opinions to make a judgement? Do not tell the devs to ignore this mode of gathering opinions. That can only be described in words I cant post here. I'm certainly glad you can make rules for all of us aamer. I would sincerely like to know when your word became law. If the devs arent capable of taking these valid opinions into account and *still* realize they are in charge, then we are all doomed.

#3 bigotry and racism. I'm mostly Italian and some irish. Good to know we're all shady businessmen. What did Italians ever do to you? also from vahrokhs post...that hurt man.

#4 not all of chaos and order has had equal chance. how many new players showed up and wanted a lair or plot when PME was in charge or since then...plenty who are plotless. I can say that....seems not so equal to them. But...who needs them right? new blood isnt the best way to keep an mmo alive right?

My opinion this is a dead horse and the thread needs locked. atm its just a circular arguement with very little logic being added...plenty of offensive material though

I too am done on this topic.

Please learn to listen your fellow players instead of being so blindly stubborn.

Flame me as you will I wont respond.

[Vahrokh]

#1 Arrogance: to say the game wont/cant make it without unity players. Last I checked the players who stayed were helping a bit too no? --- vahrokh's post

I said a totally different thing: that you knot up so much to defend some virtual property against players who could (notice the conditional) be the make or break of the game in the long term.

Sure 100 players are nothing in most games, but in Horizons every head counts, and the reason I am paying Vi already, since months, without playing is purely to support them.

#3 bigotry and racism. I'm mostly Italian and some irish. Good to know we're all shady businessmen. What did Italians ever do to you? also from vahrokhs post...that hurt man.

I am Italian and live 136 Km away off GN. I worked in the small computer retail and IT environment for 10 years including the "Klondike days" when every idiot and his brother would open a computer shop or an hosting and at that time it was like that.

There were many valid people opening shop and keeping it in shape and doing a good work, but I also assisted to shops and services being created to evade VAT, to clean illicit traffics money, to fail and flee with the cash, to scam insurance companies or just because "it's the business that these years brings the money" without caring to actually be professional or competent.

Sorry to have just reported how it was at that time, GN despite their flaws were still good for compared to many others. If they were like some I knew, they'd take all the subscription fees and one day "disappear" never to be found again. With the laughable Italian law system they would never be caught and put in prison. Not even killers do nowadays, they get 4 years of jail but if it's the first crime they don't even enter in jail (and most manage to "convince" that they have psychic disease / depression and won't really have anything bad).

[Shian]

.....I think you are underestimating the number of nice plots that are currently either available or will be available on Chaos Order. Right now... I can count 3 plots ..currently in use.... the prettiest plots in the game, with a good location and some of the larger sizes. All the others are vacant awaiting reclamation.

QFE. I had a new player ask in the dragon channel this morning about lairs. I answered his questions, helped him look around for one etc. One of his questions was: Is it good to just buy a lair now then work on it when I get high enough?

I wanted to scream at him. Not his fault, so I didn't but I see people moving in and out of lairs... having to re-build an entire lair with vaults rendered useless due to novians. Heck, one player I can name has moved 4 times, so my answer was simply 'no'.

Then there's this issue....

I am ferverently against this whole "Oh I'll buy a beautiful plot of land, wonderful location then lose interest, not do anything with it and not sell it because I just *might* be bored enough to work on it someday even though I don't like crafting. I'm pretty sure that with the number of players if they did do a plot reclaimation, there would STILL be enough good sizes for all. I'm just really sick of walking by dozens and dozens of lairs and plots with nothing in them.

[velveeta]

I am ferverently against this whole "Oh I'll buy a beautiful plot of land, wonderful location then lose interest, not do anything with it and not sell it because I just *might* be bored enough to work on it someday even though I don't like crafting. I'm pretty sure that with the number of players if they did do a plot reclaimation, there would STILL be enough good sizes for all. I'm just really sick of walking by dozens and dozens of lairs and plots with nothing in them.

i hear ya, shian - believe it or not, this is a thing on blight as well, especially since the shutdown.
the vast majority of blighties did not get to log in before shutdown (i believe today is the year anniversary of the notice day.....blight was assassinated four days later) and can't be bothered to come back and delete stuff and sell back their old plots, which could be 3 or 4 to a person in some cases. i personally know at least 4 peeps who will not be returning and still have plots open. they use the same excuse most do - not coming back so won't pay just to delete those plots....
but someone started a plot in brist behind the vault after we came back and apparently has no intention of coming back to finish it - and i hate seeing the scaffolding while running to the ports.......

i wonder if there is some way to give a very limited access, for free, to these ex players - just enough for them to login and delete the plot and give away stuff if desired. like a one or two day access, prearranged. it can then be assumed that if that day passes, anything left on the plot can be bulldozed and the plot made available for purchase. i think old players could be persuaded to take advantage of such an offer.

[Takora Drakan]

My gosch, please for the god's sake lock this thread! All are getting insane because of speculations and rumors! There is nothing offical about plots and stuff out so calm down please!

[awdz]

i wonder if there is some way to give a very limited access, for free, to these ex players - just enough for them to login and delete the plot and give away stuff if desired. like a one or two day access, prearranged. it can then be assumed that if that day passes, anything left on the plot can be bulldozed and the plot made available for purchase. i think old players could be persuaded to take advantage of such an offer.

Interesting concept, I wonder if they would. Was Blight restored before billing was reenacted? If so, then I don't know that much would be gained by a short freebie window for some. If not, then they missed the opportunity to close out plots that Order & Chaos had, and I think it would be worthwhile for your suggestion to be enacted.

[LOVWYRM]

This thread creates Xenophobias on both sides.

I know why, and it saddens me much

Pls mods close this thread

(hey Peaches , yes it`s Lov speaking- never thought I would ever ask a thread to be locked )

[gopher65]

Ah yes. The old "please lock the thread so no one can disagree with me after I've gotten the last word" posts. Nice to see people are still willing to stoop low enough to try that kind of thing.

If you see a post that is racist or bigotrist then just REPORT THAT POST. Don't ask for an entire thread, which has a valid reason for existing, to be closed just because your feelings got hurt. Way to cater to the trolls by doing their (our?) work for them.

[velveeta]

Interesting concept, I wonder if they would. Was Blight restored before billing was reenacted? If so, then I don't know that much would be gained by a short freebie window for some. If not, then they missed the opportunity to close out plots that Order & Chaos had, and I think it would be worthwhile for your suggestion to be enacted.

yes, blight was back up before the billing was secured. some peeps took advantage to start plots, then abandoned the game when pay to play was back in effect.
just a wishful thought - and not really for blight, as we actually have a lot of great plots/lairs of all sizes in all locations - but if a list of confirmed non-returners with plots could be assembled (sufficient notification and all that, of course), i see no reason why those plots couldn't be leveled and opened even before plot reclaim......
before the opposing post start - and bring them, i want them!! - understand that i already know this will never happen!

[LOVWYRM]

Look the word up again, Goph.
Then, perhaps, you`ll get my point

[gopher65]

Look the word up again, Goph.
Then, perhaps, you`ll get my point

I just scanned through this entire thread and I'm drawing a blank. I have no idea what word you are talking about. The only mildly provocative statement anyone has said has been Vahrokh saying Italians are "clowns".... but Vahrokh is Italian. He can call Italians anything he wants to.

If I say all Canadians are 'passive aggressive' does that make me a Xenophobic Bigot toward Canadians? Certainly it is a generalization, but a) I am Canadian, and I can say whatever I want about them, B)making a generalization is not racism, its stereotyping. I don't understand why people can't differentiate between those two things. Stereotyping =! racism. Stereotyping is merely making an unfair generalization about a group. It doesn't need to have anything to do with race, religion, or gender. It doesn't even have to be people. You can stereotype... robotic manufacturing plants if you want to. All robotic plants suck(not true of course)!

Anyway, other than that Clown thing I have no idea what you are referring to unless the post has already been deleted, in which case the problem has been shoved under the rug and firmly ignored, as is proper in these cases (given that this is a forum dedicated to a specific topic (Horizons) and not a general debate forum).

[Vermithraxx]

i wonder if there is some way to give a very limited access, for free, to these ex players - just enough for them to login and delete the plot and give away stuff if desired. like a one or two day access, prearranged. it can then be assumed that if that day passes, anything left on the plot can be bulldozed and the plot made available for purchase. i think old players could be persuaded to take advantage of such an offer.

As one of those ex-blight accounts, I can confirm this.

Back when Vi first restored my old account from '03, I discovered (to my surprise) that my old character was on Order. (I wasn't around for the merge, so never knew where he was.) Whoops, I'd already started over on Chaos. Better yet, in 1 month I'd already gained more levels than I'd had back in the day since Lairshaping didn't exist.

I requested a server transfer, they refused. So I copied him to Blight and tested until billing got fixed. At which point, that account went away, but I still own a lair (in Chiconis, just up the road from the pad.)

Can't very well pay $14.95 just log him in and sell the plot back, but if there were even a way on the front webpage to release a plot...
(Who needs novians or cash when you're not coming back, ever?)