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Thread: Upcoming Changes for dragons

  1. #61

    Post Re: Upcoming Changes for dragons

    First of all Shield of Gold in the current game should never be changed. It's a real *** saver, maybe not used a lot due to cost, but hey at least it's there when you need it!.

    Secondly: You want dragon changes I have dragon changes for you:
    The following is only a basic layout for what would need a lot of tweaking and adjustment, so take any examples with a big grain of salt. Thank you.

    Dragons main complaint is that once you hit ancient, you about have seen it all, done it all.
    Also dragons are supposed to be uber killing machines. I feel the dragons in Istaria are a pale reflection of that image.
    How about we spice up their life a bit.

    I would rework the class from the ground up.
    The first 20 level should be about questing for your basic abilities and skills.
    Also all of our abilities and skills should change to the formula system. So that we can put techniques onto them.
    Yes techniqueing your skills you read it right.
    Techniques should be learnt in your following eighty levels. Having 3 to 5 levels of the same tech just like we have now.

    Now a basic dragon should hold his/her own on a fight with a same level basic biped class.
    As a basic fighting machine you would not be using hoard, including all current hoard costing abilities, who should be reworked for balancing issues.
    Do not forget a dragon has currently no way to become better than level 100, in contrast to bipeds who can keep continuing multiclassing to nearly no end.
    In relation to that a dragon should actually level a bit slower than a biped.
    In any case a dragon would mostly be questing to learn more and more and different techniques.

    How would hoard fit in the picture.

    Stances or Rages: that's how.
    A dragon would need to have several stances available: I will explain in colours, but of course appropriate names could be found.
    You would have 5 in total.
    A Hatchling would start in Green: your basic stance. You do normal damage, have normal health and defensive skills. Your basic average dragon.
    The real power of a dragon comes from his/her hoard.
    Yellow stance: yellow stance/rage is learned after a decent-length quest. Upon completing you have a basic understanding of controlling the rage you feel while fighting. You learn to focus that rage into your advantage. However it comes at a cost namely your hoard.
    Any dragon level has a base hoard cost attached to it. For easiness of explanation lets make your base hoard cost equal to the level you are.
    Any skill/ability/spell has a factor attached to it. In green stance this doesn't come into effect. But once you enter yellow stance/rage it does.
    While in yellow stance all of your abilities/skills/spells operate at 150% of their normal effectiveness. A claw swipe which normally hits for 50-100 damage would now hit for 75-150 damage, ...
    Now when entering a stance all of your skills would start costing hoard.
    How is it calculated? Multiply your base hoard cost by the skill factor.
    A basic swing could have a multiplier of 1: so at level 100. An auto attack would cost 100 hoard.
    A tail whip with multiplier 1.3: would be at level 100. 130 hoard, ... .
    Each rage would increase in effectiveness (Orange 200%, Red 250% and Black 300%) but of course each stance would also have a multiplier to it.
    Yellow: 1, Orange: 2, Red: 3, Black 4.
    Also Orange, Red and Black would introduce hoard leak again. Again severity depends on the stance going from
    Orange: base hoard cost of level/sec divide by 2: so 50/sec = 3000 per minute for Orange stance
    Red: base hoard cost of level/sec= 6000 per minute for Red stance for a level 100 dragon
    Black: base hoard cost of level/sec * 2 = 12000 hoard per minute for a level 100 dragon.
    The hoard leak comes into addition to the hoard cost for skills used.
    So you would not be running around in those stances.
    However depending on the situation: to many pulls, lag, boss mob, .... You could be more powerful, the more powerful the more draining onto your hoard.
    You can become that uber biped rating at a cost. The biped needs to level for it, you need to gather hoard for it.

    For full effect: techniqueing your skills:
    You can learn techniques to better your skills.
    Techniques skills can only be used in Yellow or Higher stance, if not in those stances the normal basic skills is used instead.
    Techniques would enhance basic skills: apply an Area of Effect or a Damage over Time, increase the number of swings, ... . Lengthen the duration of a DoT, or increase the number of ticks, we could learn to apply different damage by training with certain bipeds. So you could apply Ice damage with your claw attacks, or nature, energy, ethereal, ... damage.

    All of this techniques would add to or even multiply the basic skill factor.
    Eg.
    Adding a second attack to your basic swing would add 1.5 to your skill factor.
    Making it do ice damage would add another 0.5 to that factor.
    Now you make it an Area of effect skills; you multiply that factor by 3.

    So instead of doing your base skill attack swing costing 100 hoard at level 100.
    You would be doing Double Full circle swing of Ice damage: at (1 + 1.5 + 0.5)*3 = 9 So you are doing much more damage but now it would cost 900 hoard.
    Do it in Black stance a 300% effectiveness it would cost you 3600 hoard. A lot of hoard for a lot of power (don't forget the hoard leakage as well).

    A dragon would virtually be limited only by his lust for questing for learning all the different techniques, and the hoard he/she manages to gather.
    So yep you are more powerful than a biped, but a biped can keep going and going leveling, you need keep gathering hoard and more hoard to stay in power. So that is why a dragons hoard is so precious!

    Of course hoard drop rates need to be adjusted for full effect of the new system.

    In the end a dragon can basicly adapt his play style to whatever fits, or whatever the situation requires.
    Want to be that legendary dragon, feel free however make sure you gather enough hoard to burn.
    Want to be the dragon you are playing now, feel free to stay in Green/Yellow stance.

    What do you think?
    Salis

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Upcoming Changes for dragons

    I kind of like how that sounds. A great, optional gain for a great, optional loss. Of course, it shouldn't change that skills like Gold Rage, Silver Strike and Shield of Gold would cost hoard, but it'd make dragons a lot more balanced against bipeds. (and the constant having to gather hoard would make up for the time the biped would spend leveling up)

  3. #63

    Default Re: Upcoming Changes for dragons

    I appreciate the work you put into that post, Salis, but I think it would be safer to change Shield of Gold than to make sweeping changes of the type you described.

    Anyway, as Deth posted in another thread, the reason I even brought up Shield of Gold in the first place was because in 4 years I've never seen a single post talking about Dragon tactics that mentioned its use. Almost every other ability has been mentioned, but not that one. Curious, isn't it?
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

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  4. #64

    Default Re: Upcoming Changes for dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by cauri_order View Post

    You are considering implementing a 3 hit cap or 60 second duration. Even with the hoard cost reduction, reduction in cooldown it is still a huge nerf to dragon survivability.
    Of course, it could be said that if you are within 3 hits of dying, you should fly your dragon self the heck out of their, and hit this ability to ensure you got out safely.

  5. #65

    Default Re: Upcoming Changes for dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by Velea View Post
    Of course, it could be said that if you are within 3 hits of dying, you should fly your dragon self the heck out of their, and hit this ability to ensure you got out safely.
    Well, i would hope most dragons have already taken off before getting that low. :P
    Cauri BloodBane - Order
    100 DADV / 100 D C R A

  6. #66

    Default Re: Upcoming Changes for dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    Given that the proposed change to SoG did not remove the hoard drain or damage mitigation, only added an equal dealing of damage to the mob... how is that removing your last line of defense?
    I was up fighting Marrows or some other blight creature. It once killed me with multistrike instantly- 7 hits took all 2.5k of my health. That's a little irritating considering I now have to spend 20 mins eating instead of doing something productive.

    Taking off three of those, it's still like shredding through paper. Chances are, I only have a couple hundred health points left. With the current shield of gold I might have a better chance at staying on my feet and staying in the fight. Death really hurts now so players tend to try to avoid it.

  7. #67

    Default Re: Upcoming Changes for dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by Shian View Post
    I was up fighting Marrows or some other blight creature. It once killed me with multistrike instantly- 7 hits. That's a little irritating considering I now have to spend 20 mins eating instead of doing something productive
    Again, I'm sorry, but I don't understand how SoG would help with that circumstance.

    You would have to know those 7 hits were coming and have it up before the first one came if it was instantly. Unless you put SoG up on a regular basis (which perhaps is the case), how would this ability have helped you get out of that situation?

    Please understand I'm not trying to say anything regarding proposed changes. I am trying to understand under what circumstances players use this ability to hunt under normal conditions.

  8. #68

    Default Re: Upcoming Changes for dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    I appreciate the work you put into that post, Salis, but I think it would be safer to change Shield of Gold than to make sweeping changes of the type you described.

    Anyway, as Deth posted in another thread, the reason I even brought up Shield of Gold in the first place was because in 4 years I've never seen a single post talking about Dragon tactics that mentioned its use. Almost every other ability has been mentioned, but not that one. Curious, isn't it?
    So because nobody has posted on a particular ability that means the ability needs to be changed? Well, I can give you several other abilities that are never talked about.

    Dragon Related
    • Menancing Presence
    • Staggering Howl
    • The dragon Mez spell (way too high of a cost)
    Point being just because an ability is rarely talked about does not mean it's never used. It's been pointed out in this thread what Shield of Gold is used for and under what circumstances. Is it used every fight? No, and it shouldn't need to be used. It's the proverbial "oh sh*t" button and it serves its purpose wonderfully.

    It does have a high hoard cost, as it should since it's a very powerful ability. To have it capped at a 3 hit max seems to be a bit overboard if the added benefit of the ability is another damage shield.

    My next question - would this damaging component of Gold Shield stack with Spiked Scales?
    Cauri BloodBane - Order
    100 DADV / 100 D C R A

  9. #69

    Default Re: Upcoming Changes for dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by Velea View Post
    Again, I'm sorry, but I don't understand how SoG would help with that circumstance.

    You would have to know those 7 hits were coming and have it up before the first one came if it was instantly. Unless you put SoG up on a regular basis (which perhaps is the case), how would this ability have helped you get out of that situation?

    Please understand I'm not trying to say anything regarding proposed changes. I am trying to understand under what circumstances players use this ability to hunt under normal conditions.
    When going up against known difficult mobs, yes I would activate SOG. Aren't dragons a tank class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Velea View Post
    Of course, it could be said that if you are within 3 hits of dying, you should fly your dragon self the heck out of their, and hit this ability to ensure you got out safely.
    If you're within three hits of dying, you won't make it out in time because it takes a while to get off the ground. If you're hit at all, you go through the "hit animation" and can't fly.

    Is there someone on the dev team that plays an adult dragon? I'm beginning to wonder with the odd changes and questions afterward.
    Last edited by Shian; May 23rd, 2008 at 04:48 PM.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Upcoming Changes for dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by Velea View Post
    Again, I'm sorry, but I don't understand how SoG would help with that circumstance.

    You would have to know those 7 hits were coming and have it up before the first one came if it was instantly. Unless you put SoG up on a regular basis (which perhaps is the case), how would this ability have helped you get out of that situation?

    Please understand I'm not trying to say anything regarding proposed changes. I am trying to understand under what circumstances players use this ability to hunt under normal conditions.
    Examples:

    I'm going to fight Mhedon, Umyarr, any of the Rift mobs. I know most of these mobs are going to use their high damaging attacks right off the get go.

    I'll pop shield of gold before the fight starts and then engage. Now I don't die immediately to the Avalance of Ore, multistrike, ect attack. I may be down to half health even Shield of Gold, but I'm still alive.

    In that marrow instance, (I've never fought those particular marrows) I'd probably go in fighting with the same mentality.

    It's the same concept with Spirit Walk, Ignore Pain, etc. You can reliably predict when a mob is going to use their large attacks (since mob AI is not the greatest, they tend to use the high damaging specials in the beginning of the attack).
    Cauri BloodBane - Order
    100 DADV / 100 D C R A

  11. #71

    Default Re: Upcoming Changes for dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    I appreciate the work you put into that post, Salis, but I think it would be safer to change Shield of Gold than to make sweeping changes of the type you described.
    I certainly understand. After all the development team is small, so any changes of this magnitude like a complete overhaul of the dragons inner workings would take a lot of time and effort. Furthermore I would certainly hope that such a changes would be thoroughly discussed with and by the dragon and biped community before even considering such changes.

    How many times I already redesigned half of the gameplay of Istaria in my head. I've lost count. However even if dragons would be changed in this matter. I would certainly leave the Dragon Class alone, I'd rather redesign a new class from the ground up.
    You would be able to take the new class, and loose everything you currently have of stats, skills, except from what you gain from dragon crafter and lairshaper. anything relate to the Dragon class you'd loose.
    In this way you could try the new class, and if you don't like it, you could change back to your previous self. Maybe attach a quest for the changing like Adult and Ancienthood to it.
    Heck you could even make it so that you need to level first to Ancient before you could be sort of reborn.

    In any case these changes would mean a lot of work, and personally though I don't play a biped. I feel that some biped love certainly wouldn't hurt.

    To conclude.
    I concur with the other, please add to the dragon class, but don't change stuff how rarely maybe discussed, to lesser things. Put the new skill/ability on a shared timer, and you have more choice. Take the Shield of Silver, or the Shield of Gold. Give people choices, they will love you all the more for it.

    Salis

  12. #72

    Default Re: Upcoming Changes for dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by Shian View Post
    Is there someone on the dev team that plays an adult dragon? I'm beginning to wonder with the odd changes and questions afterward.
    There is absolutely NO need to be nasty here, Shian.

    Yes, I play an adult dragon. Quite well, I feel, and so do those who group with me. And have for a number of years.

    The questions, I feel, are legitimate because in my experience, there have been many times when I've been within what I knew would be one or two hits of death, said "ok, not going to take the gamble, it has more HP than I can do over time compared to what it's doing to me" and yes, I've flown away successfully. Closest one recently being I got to the tree with 10 hit points left. That was a little too close, but man, what an adrenaline boost.

    If you want me to understand how your play style is different from mine, then allow me to ask questions without being nasty and implying I don't know what I'm talking about. Because in my experience, if I look at how much and how often a mob is doing damage to me over time in a combat, and I know I'm 3 of those hits from death, I'll start flying. A SoG spell such as has been described here would be a great way to insure that I make it out without it coming down to just 10 hit points.

  13. #73

    Default Re: Upcoming Changes for dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by cauri_order View Post
    Examples:

    I'm going to fight Mhedon, Umyarr, any of the Rift mobs. I know most of these mobs are going to use their high damaging attacks right off the get go.

    I'll pop shield of gold before the fight starts and then engage. Now I don't die immediately to the Avalance of Ore, multistrike, ect attack. I may be down to half health even Shield of Gold, but I'm still alive.

    In that marrow instance, (I've never fought those particular marrows) I'd probably go in fighting with the same mentality.

    It's the same concept with Spirit Walk, Ignore Pain, etc. You can reliably predict when a mob is going to use their large attacks (since mob AI is not the greatest, they tend to use the high damaging specials in the beginning of the attack).
    Great examples, Cauri. That helps me personally to understand much better how this spell is currently used. I can't say whether it will change anything one way or another with the topic at hand, but it at least lets me see how some people use this in their play style.

    Personally, I'd play things out differently. So thank you for the example of how you use this ability.

  14. #74

    Default Re: Upcoming Changes for dragons

    Now you have my curiosity peaked Velea - have you fought any of the "big" mobs on your dragon? If so I'm curious how you proceed
    Cauri BloodBane - Order
    100 DADV / 100 D C R A

  15. #75

    Default Re: Upcoming Changes for dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by cauri_order View Post
    Now you have my curiosity peaked Velea - have you fought any of the "big" mobs on your dragon? If so I'm curious how you proceed
    There I will plead the fifth, not because I have or have not necessarily, but because I prefer to keep my played characters just that.. played ones, not developer ones.

    As for tactics, I bring friends... big powerful friends so we can hit hard and fast... kinda like a bullet train at full speed.

  16. #76
    Member Vlisson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Upcoming Changes for dragons

    i rarely used shield of gold (i accepted an death point more then the hoard loss ^^)

    but its funny to see all crying now and i can confirm that i never read an appreciated SoG post ^^

    but the change leaves a bad taste for me too

    shield of gold should be a real shield, saving your live with a high reliability

    the new SoG is more usefull but dont deserve this lable, shield of silver would fit better (like mentioned before)

    im sure the new shield will be used more (depends on the hoard cost) but my opinion is (like previous posted)

    leave SoG untouched and give us a new ability calles Shield of Silver with the new effect

  17. #77

    Default Re: Upcoming Changes for dragons

    Understandable Velea, i was just curious as to how your draggy handled those mobs

    Anyways, here's hoping Shield of Gold remains the same and we get a new ability to suit the posted design,
    Cauri BloodBane - Order
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  18. #78

    Default Re: Upcoming Changes for dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlisson View Post
    leave SoG untouched and give us a new ability calles Shield of Silver with the new effect
    Why leave an ability that is not useful and replace it with an ability that is?

    One of the things people complained about in this thread was that there already is a damage shield ability (Spiked Scales) and another isn't needed. So why give another ability that acts like SoG ... only better?

    Balance wise, the only option would be to put the two abilities on linked timers, so people would use one or the other. So wouldn't people just either A) Be confused at having two abilities that mostly replicate one another, or B) Only use one, thus causing "bloat" with the other (unused) one.

  19. #79
    Member Vlisson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Upcoming Changes for dragons

    good point Velea but like mentioned before there are situations where you need the old SoG to survive at all costs

    the new SoG wont do this job

    when you do the arop or another important fight (against mobs not worth the effort but important for a quest) then you pay the price. it does not happen everyday but at some points of your dragonlife you would do everything ^^

  20. #80

    Default Re: Upcoming Changes for dragons

    No like I said before choice is better.
    Shield of Silver would indeed be used more. But that is not the point. The fact is that Shield of Silver will be used against "weaker" mobs. Shield of Gold will serve a different purpose as a shield against heavy hitters. Small hoard loss vs big hoard loss.
    Different situations deserve different skill use.
    Each player plays differently let each use the skills that suits his or her play style.
    Afterall on a linked timer you will prevent abuse as to popping Both Silver and Gold on.

    Salis

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