DLF: freedom from biped oppression!

[Vahrokh]

They are skilled in the ways of magic, yes, but it is arcane style magic, not priest magic. Biped arcane magic users can't res at all, never mind once an hour.

We are skilled in "primal" magic, which is not arcane.
Not by random chance, we have "arcane refusal" and "countercheck primal" as different resistance / ward spells.
Since our magic line is completely apart from the others (yet inclusive of the others), I find every other comparison and analogy to be misplaced.

However, that said, I think too many classes have access to too many spells. I'd remove resurrect (1 minute recycle btw, not 30second) from several classes. Druid,

Druid and Spiritist are deeply involved with "spiritual" magic. In most games, druids are primary healers (the pagan version of a priest) and scholars, hence I find them perfectly good candidates to have a ress.

[gopher65]

Druid and Spiritist are deeply involved with "spiritual" magic. In most games, druids are primary healers (the pagan version of a priest) and scholars, hence I find them perfectly good candidates to have a ress.

Except that here they aren't, are they? Spiritist are the school that is studying "evil" magic. "Use the weapons of our enemy against them". They use soul-sucking magic and blight magic. They're not called Spiritists because they're "spiritual", they're called Spiritists because they launch evil attacks on the souls of other creatures. And Druids aren't the primary healers in this game; we have 2 other classes for that. Here Druids are crowd control, but for some reason they have the ability to use all healing spells and BECOME healers. If you take Healer to 100 then Druid becomes better at healing than a Cleric is. That's ridiculous.

The reason why dragons are always complaining that bipeds are too powerful has nothing to do with multiclassing as a whole. It's because there are a few ridiculously overpowered combinations that *everyone* uses because they are far and away better than everything else.

eg: Druid as main + Warrior + Spiritist + Healer + Monk + Mage for instance = Max Power/Strength/Dex/Focus/Health/Evasion/Magic Evasion + Multicast I + Perfect Spell (so much for Human Magical Aptitude, eh?) + DC + all major weapon skills at max + Ethereal Paroxysm + all heals + all augmentations + Cloak of Thorns + Forest Mist + 3 Detoxes that are 100% effective + 2 long duration stuns + Roots + AoE Roots + Area Syphon + geez, there are so many overpowered abilities in there that I can't remember them all.

All it would take would be to make a few abilities unmasterable (Fusion Burn, Multicast, Perfect Spell, Forest Mist and poof. Bob's your uncle. The overpowered ones are gone, but there are still enough good abilities to make multiclassing worth it. Course removing Multicast would KILL Wizard and Sorcerer...), and take away a few spells (like res) from most of the classes that have them now, and those broken combinations would fall back into place with the rest of the schools and multiclassing combos.

You want to know why these problems exist? Because when the devs were first making this game it never occurred to them that it would be possible for any single person to master 3 or 5 or 10 schools. They were thinking that everyone would use multiclassing to *sample* other schools, not to fully master them. And certainly not to fully master *every* school in the game.

[Melanth]

All it would take would be to make a few abilities unmasterable (Fusion Burn, Multicast, Perfect Spell, Forest Mist and poof. Bob's your uncle. The overpowered ones are gone, but there are still enough good abilities to make multiclassing worth it. Course removing Multicast would KILL Wizard and Sorcerer...), and take away a few spells (like res) from most of the classes that have them now, and those broken combinations would fall back into place with the rest of the schools and multiclassing combos.

rather than removing existing content and having a massive player uproar, as well as making the game more difficult for 'Peds to play, would it not be better to see content added to dragons rather than removed from peds? just my 2c worth but i think this game has seen enough nerfs already without spreading 'nerf bug' to bipeds too...

Something like this has been happening with the proposed changes to shield of gold, and it isnt so much a case of the S**t hitting the fan as the midden hitting the windmill

[gopher65]

rather than removing existing content and having a massive player uproar<snip>

That's always my first choice as well, but the biped system is currently broken in a very minor way that is causing major ripples through the rest of the game. Which is better: having devs spend the next few years rebalancing dragons, or having them make one short, mean patch that rebalances bipeds, and removes the need for years of work on dragons?

And of course, if you choose to buff dragons to be equal to the top tier über-peds, then you will have to rebalance the rest of the mobs to be equal to dragons and über-peds (the ones that haven't already been rebalanced in this direction). This will effectively railroad every biped player into making cookie-cutter characters (otherwise they will be too weak to kill the über-mobs). In fact, this is really already the case. How many Crossbowman do you see? I'd love to be a Crossbowman, but I can't, because they are too weak to kill the mobs that were buffed up for the über-peds. What about Spearman? Disciples? How many people play Monks as their main class? All of this is because we have been railroaded into making über-peds.

[Melanth]

That's always my first choice as well, but the biped system is currently broken in a very minor way that is causing major ripples through the rest of the game. Which is better: having devs spend the next few years rebalancing dragons, or having them make one short, mean patch that rebalances bipeds, and removes the need for years of work on dragons?

And of course, if you choose to buff dragons to be equal to the top tier über-peds, then you will have to rebalance the rest of the mobs to be equal to dragons and über-peds (the ones that haven't already been rebalanced in this direction). This will effectively railroad every biped player into making cookie-cutter characters (otherwise they will be too weak to kill the über-mobs). In fact, this is really already the case. How many Crossbowman do you see? I'd love to be a Crossbowman, but I can't, because they are too weak to kill the mobs that were buffed up for the über-peds. What about Spearman? Disciples? How many people play Monks as their main class? All of this is because we have been railroaded into making über-peds.

I agree, even as much as i am opposed to nerfs, but i still think it would save much upset to upgrade rather than downgrade. It would also help to discourage uber-pedism (hey, i made a word!) to make more ped abilities school specific- if you want to be a warrior, you shouldnt be able to use bolt of fire whilst in a warror class etc. Its this interconnection of abilities that gives rise to the uber-ped syndrom- im all for more adventure schools, but there really isnt a point in a lot of the schools when you have that school for a few abilities and just use cross-school abilities for other purposes. As you say dragons arent the only ones with the problems; there are a lot of superfluous ped schools too, its just that peds have the option to take another school whereas dragons are stuck with only one that is rather inflexible.

Perhaps a rating cap of 100 on peds might also be an answer- i have seen peds rated 250+, which is pretty stupid. This would still allow them to level regular and prestiege schools but without making them insanely and unrealistically tough.

Another option to bring dragons to parity is simply to create more 'shield' abilities to avoid dragons being glass cannons. Whilst dragons can dish out horrific amounts of punishment they are very vulnerable to incoming attacks, especially ethereal and spirit which circumvent armour. This would help to answer the problem of skill parity, but there still would remain the problem of peds dominating the questing scene. There is no easy answer to this problem, because no matter what you do there will be opposition, i just believe that there needs to be a change, hopefully without nerfing anything either way.

[Veruliyam]

rather than removing existing content and having a massive player uproar, as well as making the game more difficult for 'Peds to play, would it not be better to see content added to dragons rather than removed from peds? just my 2c worth but i think this game has seen enough nerfs already without spreading 'nerf bug' to bipeds too...

Something like this has been happening with the proposed changes to shield of gold, and it isnt so much a case of the S**t hitting the fan as the midden hitting the windmill

ROTGLMTO

Oh, by the gods, that was excellent!!

*scribes it on a full load of granite spell shards and hoards them all*

Would it be too obvious, or too destructive in the long term, to remove the cap on the Dragons' adventuring class?

Or, if not that, then slow down its progression instead of stopping it completely?

[Melanth]

ROTGLMTO

Oh, by the gods, that was excellent!!

*scribes it on a full load of granite spell shards and hoards them all*

Would it be too obvious, or too destructive in the long term, to remove the cap on the Dragons' adventuring class?

Or, if not that, then slow down its progression instead of stopping it completely?

that still doesnt solve disparities unfortunatly, although its a nice idea dragons (especially helians) need more spells, more non-dependant quests and in myopinion at least one or even a couple of new adventure schools to deal with faction differences (as per lore) and improve our combat ability (as per legend). Currently, dragon adventure school is equal to a biped warrior school in terms of strength, save for gold rage and shield of gold, buth of which a lot of players count as 'band-aid' type abilities imposed by previous game owners to help equal things out. Besides, GS and SoG eat hoard like a pig in a truffle farm so they have potentially limiting factors attatched, which is not something associated with bipeds. There has already been complaints that they are 'i win buttons' (although i dont think so myself) and SoG at least will be set for a nerf if the devs get their way.

[gopher65]

Currently, dragon adventure school is equal to a biped warrior school in terms of strength, save for gold rage and shield of gold

And here we have the problem I talked about earlier. Dragons pick the unbalanced überped and compare themselves against that. When I say "well, you're outdamaging ME" they reply "Yeah, but you don't have to be a healer/ranger/spiritist/wizard/druid/spearman (whatever)! You could be a paladin with a BHM!!1111!!"

That bugs me. (I always want to answer, "And YOU could just make yourself a biped, PL it up, and buy a BHM off ebay, couldn't you? Cause, like, that's how you want to play, right?")

The vast majority of dragon complaints stem from their perceived inadequacy when comparing themselves to people who can crit hit for 20000 damage. (I buffed myself up the other day to the max an almost crit hit for 1000 with my Ranger against a level 81 Dire Wolf, and I was ecstatic, cause that was the highest I'd ever got with a bow.) If a few select nerfs were applied all those ungõdly high 20k hits would disappear, as would the ability to farm 30 mobs at once.

Then dragons would have nothing to complain about, because all other biped schools are pitifully weak in comparison.

Let me give another example. My character is level 100 Wizard and level 50 Mage. When I switch from 100 Wizard to 50 Mage, I do more damage (using level 30-40 spells). Unbalanced.

[Vahrokh]

Except that here they aren't, are they? Spiritist are the school that is studying "evil" magic. "Use the weapons of our enemy against them". They use soul-sucking magic and blight magic. They're not called Spiritists because they're "spiritual", they're called Spiritists because they launch evil attacks on the souls of other creatures

What about they are evil and perform a dark ress ritual?
They "work" with spirit, there's not written anywhere is has to be used for good deeds / behavior. Even the WA ress each other and they are far from "good" aligned.

Druids aren't the primary healers in this game; we have 2 other classes for that. Here Druids are crowd control, but for some reason they have the ability to use all healing spells and BECOME healers. If you take Healer to 100 then Druid becomes better at healing than a Cleric is. That's ridiculous.

Don't take it on me if the game does not work in a way you don't like. Maybe the "some reason" can be explained by others more versed in bipeds' mechanics. I just reported how druids are healers in other games and thus I don't see it like a big deal.

The reason why dragons are always complaining that bipeds are too powerful has nothing to do with multiclassing as a whole. It's because there are a few ridiculously overpowered combinations that *everyone* uses because they are far and away better than everything else.

But when someone creates a thread in General about those rigged setups, I see people pretty much defensive about those cookie cutters. Wonder why.

Stand Against Darkness shouldn't stack with Boar's Rage
http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=18424

It started on a specific example, then "evolved" into those combos that basically are like a free permanent gold rage to allow two people doing in one minute what 7 gold rage spamming dragons need 3-4 minutes to do.

All it would take would be to make a few abilities unmasterable (Fusion Burn, Multicast, Perfect Spell, Forest Mist and poof. Bob's your uncle. The overpowered ones are gone,

I think the idea surfaced in the developers' minds. Then they counted the number of subscriptions... and quickly changed their minds.
One of the weak spots of Istaria is that the developers can be ransomed, blackmailed, intimidated (or at least people feel free to) because all know they can't lose 1000 subscriptions due to protest.
In WoW 1000 subs would be 0.001% of the player base. In Istaria it'd be 30-40%.

You want to know why these problems exist? Because when the devs were first making this game it never occurred to them that it would be possible for any single person to master 3 or 5 or 10 schools. They were thinking that everyone would use multiclassing to *sample* other schools, not to fully master them

The original designers were clueless on many aspects. I.e. believing no endgame would not have dire consequences. Or believing a client unable to sustain more than 5 characters on screen would cut it. Or designing a world without being able to even populate it with monsters (hence the ridicolous "spawn on demand, slowly" mechanism). Or not implementing a true 3D simulation engine in a 3D game...

Now, all of this has been paid very hard:

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart3.html

As it's possible to see on the graph above, Horizons peaked at 35,000 subscriptions in 2004.
By 2005 we were down to 10,000 subscriptions already.
In 2007 and whereabouts of EII "reign" they dropped to 5,000. The game managed to lose 86% of the playerbase in 3 years.

Now, the ball is in Vi's hands. Let's hope to invert the trend.

It would also help to discourage uber-pedism (hey, i made a word!) to make more ped abilities school specific- if you want to be a warrior, you shouldnt be able to use bolt of fire whilst in a warror class etc.

There is just a minor detail about nerfing rampant multiclassing:


without it, the game is dead. They are multiclassing like crazy because if you remove that, they have nothing to do but some random Blights / SoG / Valkor run.

This is another issue of having a small player base: if you lose them, you are done for. There is small turnover, new players will go play WoW or AoC not Istaria.

So it's about keeping an imbalance and prolong the 2004 players stay in game or.... fix the game and bankrupt.

[Shian]

That graph seems flawed and considerably wrong on multiple accounts. I would not read too much into it or trust it just as much as I would trust any game to actually reveal the # of paid subscriptions at any given time.

However, it does show something that I do believe is true. Nearly all games have thier highest number of subscriptions during thier first year or within a few months after launch, so generally speaking what we have is what we will have.

[Sindala]

Wouldn't this be a viable way to 'beef up' Dragons while not nerfing anything else in-game.

Dragons have upto 5 gift slots but only have 1 gift themselves, simply add a few more dragon gifts for 'whatever' and make them cost hoard so that if you want them you can have them but they wont stop you from playing the game without them? seems simple enough.

One thing i will say though, Will Adult/Ancient Dragons stop whining about hoard !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shesh, it's not a problem once you can fly and you really cant use it fast enough before its replenished (unless your mob farming then its your own problem)

Once i hit the 10 million mark i stopped hunting hoard and just played the game, now i have over 30 million and raising.

Yes i know its hard for hatchies, but only if they dont open their jaws. Everyone and i mean EVERYONE that i know on Chaos has given hoard to hatchies, its funny to see their response when you hand them 100k hoard (which takes about 10 mins to get)

[Shur]

One thing i will say though, Will Adult/Ancient Dragons stop whining about hoard !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

no

Shesh, it's not a problem once you can fly and you really cant use it fast enough before its replenished (unless your mob farming then its your own problem)

wanna bet? unless i am specifically farming hoard mobs, i am lucky to see one actual hoard item drop every few hundred kills. when i am hoard farming..... let's just say progress is woefully sluggish.

Once i hit the 10 million mark i stopped hunting hoard and just played the game, now i have over 30 million and raising.

good for you! i congratulate you on your high order of hoard drops. i, on teh other hand, have yet to see the other side four million, however, and 3 million or so of the 3.5 million in my possession was given to me.

100k hoard (which takes about 10 mins to get)

40 minutes at least.

[Machariel]

no



wanna bet? unless i am specifically farming hoard mobs, i am lucky to see one actual hoard item drop every few hundred kills. when i am hoard farming..... let's just say progress is woefully sluggish.



good for you! i congratulate you on your high order of hoard drops. i, on teh other hand, have yet to see the other side four million, however, and 3 million or so of the 3.5 million in my possession was given to me.




40 minutes at least.

try island of ice . icy dire wilves and giant ice beetles are dragons best friends. the litterly vomt ghoard at your presence.
kill 1 and you have enough hoard to kill them for an hour XD

[LaughingOtter]

Just a gentle reminder, folks: please keep the discussion civil and the suggestions constructive. This is a valid topic of discussion, and it would be a shame to lock it or move it to Rants.

Thanks

[Vahrokh]

Please, LaughingOtter could you please tell us if the "super hoard" mobs are considered bugged and thus will be nerfed to the levels of the other mobs?

Or are them a wanted feature?

[Melanth]

Please, LaughingOtter could you please tell us if the "super hoard" mobs are considered bugged and thus will be nerfed to the levels of the other mobs?

Or are them a wanted feature?

very good point! with more abilities costing hoard there needs to be at least one decent hoard mob per tier to even things out, or else you have the problem that is the entire reason why i started this thread- you will end up overly relying on other people and ESPECIALLY PEDS who dont require hoard. Whilst there needs to be a group element to encourage player interaction the anti-social of us who like to solo things are finding ourselves swiftly undercut. Congratulations on those dragons with maxed out hoard yadda yadda etc, but not all of us are so fortunate, and hatchlings have no fortune at all, except what people give them. If it were not for the apparently bugged drop on giant ice beetles especially many dragons would find themselves up the proverbial creek without a paddel.

[Valornyx]

It gets so tiring ..

this whole silly-*** dragons vs bipeds thing .. all the dragons think that they are way under-powered against a multi-100 biped and they should get a whole bunch of super killer abilities because , well, they should, because they managed to level one class to 100 and although they probably did not do it without help from a healer or two along the way.

Firstly, I play mostly a dragon. Secondly I have a multi-ped with 9 Level 100's and a bunch of others.

An ancient dragon is overpowered for the amount of work they have put into getting their skills.

Sure, an uber-ped willl kill them in the arena .. but seriously - someone with 9xL100 as opposed to 1x L100 should kick their posterior. If I ever played my mains against each other, the Sslik would win hands down. But then he should. R178 is a whole lot of work.. many levels that give nothing - but can open the door for one ability that is masterable. This is not easy leveling. but then maybe you don't know this because you've only tried to level a dragon or a single-class ped.

Oh yeah - I deserve a whole lot of better skills because, well because, well because, well - I want them - not that I really deserve them.

Don't misunderstand me. I think that Dragons and bipeds are equally important to Istarian life and I honestly associate myself closer to the dragon than the bipeds that are a part of my clan.

But I am so sick of dumb-*** dragons thinking that somehow the world owes them a living because well, they're dragons and their overpowered 1xL100 is not enough for them

Lets read suggestions : "I think that dragons should have an equivalent to DC plus superhealing plus crowd control plus a this or that or whatever"

GROW UP!! .. I love my dragons .. but the amount of work to get a killer dragon vs a kick *** biped is in no way representative.

Bipeds can grow to be killer - but it takes a whole lot more work than you spent to get to L100 as a dragon.

I am so sick and tired of dragons wanting all these new abilities to make them equal to bipeds when - they are in no way equal to a biped who has taken the trouble and time to level 7 or more adventure classes to L100.

Should dragons have more classes? - well that is a debate for another day - but right now, a L100 ancient dragon is equal in combat ability to a 3x100 biped IMHO. 3x as much work with a rating working against you.

Well that seems "fair!!" .. but no, I guess not!! Stop with the gimme gimme gimme stuff already!!

[Melanth]

Valornyx you have completely missed the point. Ask any dragon if they would mind putting in extra effort to level a few more adventure schools an they will give a resounding YES! The complaint is that bipeds have the option whereas dragons do not. It has nothing to do with commitment vs ability and everything to do with option vs capability. no one is lazy like you seem to be suggesting- you dont choose to play a dragon because it is 'easy' but because you want to play a dragon!

Read the posts; no one wants mega-uber-gods-own-anti-sonofabitch-death-dealing abilities but maybe a bit of expanded content and something for the stackloads of level 100 ancients who have completed every quest an have nothing left to do but slum around on DC and occasionally murder epics. It would help keep the playerbase from getting bored and moving on or jacking it in altogether. I love HZ, but it gets boring with nothing to do and having to grovel on MP for some biped player to craft stuff that we cant make ourselves is downright demeaning.

[Sigi]

If you are bored make a biped then you can grovel on yourself for the stuff you need.

[Hrough]

If you are bored make a biped then you can grovel on yourself for the stuff you need.

That's avoiding the problem. People want things to do on their dragons.

Dragons should either move past the level 100 cap, or have quests that will reward us for equivalent effort to a multi-classing biped.

I don't think anyone is asking for a level 100 dragon to immediately become equivalent to a x9 level 100 biped, but for dragons to have an endgame that will reward them for additional time and effort put into the game with strength.

It's an issue of both the lack of an endgame and the lack of equality. But I think there are things that the devs need to work on first, because we're talking a major endgame overhaul, a few months of work at least. Not to mention a lot of testing and balancing. =)

I won't mind playing a biped character later (I have a few in planning), but I'm not making them so I can get things for my dragons - I'm making them because I want to play a biped too - and some players just don't want to do that.