Auction or purchase?

[fireblade]

personally i think id prefer anonymous proxy bid auction

with auctions done in order of descending highest bidder with shared money pool (per char)

The highest bidder auction first means that people bidding lots of money are dealt with first and are removed from all other auctions (char can only win one plot/lair) and the shared pool means you can bid on more than one plot/lair with the same money, so if you are beaten in one auction you can use the same pool of money in your bids in other auctions.

unfortunately i don't think there is much that can be done about multiple accounts/subscriptions or people with huge amounts of money other than removing them from the auction process quickly

So I think that this would basically result in people getting lairs/plots for what people think they are worth (or lower)

[Landowyn]

Well if he pays the subs it's good for VI, if he pays another sub when he wants another plot, it's again good for VI. More Subs = more cash for VI to keep the game up and running.

I was commenting on the availability of plots, not whether or not someone was willing to pay Virtrium $60 to $75 a month for virtual property. A previous person had mentioned that many plots would be available and I was saying it may not be as many as you think.

[QuO]

Was just reading about those prime locations and got a couple of ideas.

Can the prime locations be identified and have the auction managed manually by a GM perhaps? Doing some special routine for 20 to 50 plots might take one GM a full day or more but that sure beats writing new code and testing for some fancy and probably complicated auction system.

For those prime locations you can bid as much as you like but you should only have to pay maybe 50% more (or whatever) than the 2nd highest bidder. If you bid every penny you have on it then it must be worth that to you but if you are lucky you won't have to give it all up.

I apologize to the ex-Unity folks, I don't have a good solution for you folks as my time is limited atm. Perhaps you can somehow be included in a formula added to my suggestion above. Fair is not an easy target I'm afraid.

Below is a more complex but hopefully not to "code intensive" option for the rest of the plots... or all of them if you don't care for my suggestion for "prime" locations above.

What the devs might do is put caps on amounts sorta like this (though I hate to make things too complex):

You can bid as much as you want on the plot but....

• If you are the only bidder then you won't have to pay any more than the going community price for the plot.
• If there are two bidders then the cap is maybe 25% over the community rate and if both bid more than that then the system will randomly select one of them to be the winner.
• If there are three bidders the cap could be 50% over the community price and it goes as it did when there are two bidders (see above).
• You could take this up to some limit of 10 or more bidders and the maximum price any would pay is 500% of the community price, for example.

So basically the code would take the community plot price and multiply it by the number of bidders and some factor to get the maximum price anyone has to pay. All who bid that much or higher are then randomly selected. I have no idea if this is too much coding or not... it's just a thought.

If I am a bidder I might go ahead and bid 500% of the community price if I want it badly enough. Otherwise I might just hope there are only a few others who are interested and so I won't bid that much, hoping to get it for less.

Anyway you get the idea. Even this may be more coding than anyone wants to do or wants done if it takes too long.

If this is too complex then frankly I think a "sky's the limit" blind auction is the way to go (with some consideration for ex-Unity if possible). I'm just offering alternatives and assuming you might have some tools to help pull it off. The last time I remember auctions was for the merger and while not all were happy I think it went well... and once again my apologies and regards to the ex Unity folks.

[Vahrokh]

For those prime locations you can bid as much as you like but you should only have to pay maybe 50% more (or whatever) than the 2nd highest bidder. If you bid every penny you have on it then it must be worth that to you but if you are lucky you won't have to give it all up.

I apologize to the ex-Unity folks, I don't have a good solution for you folks as my time is limited atm. Perhaps you can somehow be included in a formula added to my suggestion above. Fair is not an easy target I'm afraid

There's nothing to apologize. The only Unity people that are not screwed off, are those who massively exploited the never closed EU shard bugs (we were patches behind you) and that of course they were never catched or punished for it. On the contrary, they'd happily browse the US patch notes and read:

"Fixed the exploit that allowed for unintended money gains when doing XXX" and then log in and happily do XXX ad nauseam. GN stopped some most blatant cases but I think 60% (expecially in the later times) went untouched and now have 3-4 digit gold made in few afternoons.

[Landowyn]

Are you sure about this, Vahrokh? That some former Unity toons are bringing in piles of ill-gotten gold into the game? That is most disheartening ...

I've never had more than 20-25 gold in the game with all my characters combined, and I've been playing since launch with a few sabbaticals. Plot reclamation doesn't seem quite so exciting any more.

[Kulamata]

After reading more thoughts, I still like the idea of a capped auction; capped perhaps at 4X Imperial valuation. And if more than one player bids the max, it's decided by lottery/chance/die throw.

[Vahrokh]

Are you sure about this, Vahrokh? That some former Unity toons are bringing in piles of ill-gotten gold into the game? That is most disheartening ...

Sure that it's possible: yes.
Sure that Vi received any request for importing one of those characters: no.
Sure that Vi checked for suspect amounts of money on the above: no idea.

[Mysk]

The only Unity people that are not screwed off, are those who massively exploited the never closed EU shard bugs (we were patches behind you) and that of course they were never catched or punished for it.

This gives a really bad taste on us Ex-Unity players. This sounds like that it must be 100% sure that such money made it to the US servers. Of course I don't know about the other Unity players but I can say that my ingame money is hard earned (and no, I don't have triple digit gold).
With that statement from Vahrokh it could be that if ANY Unity player will buy something with more than average money, the other players will think: "Ah, of course, I had no chance because that player got the money on Unity with exploits". And I think that this gives a completely wrong impression about the Unity players and is just not fair.

If there a obscene amounts of gold that got transfered from Unity, then hopefully VI will find a solution to protect the economy.

[Vahrokh]

This gives a really bad taste on us Ex-Unity players.

Not at all. The US players exploited as much as the EU ones.
The difference, if you want to talk about who brings bad taste, was the server administration and Artifact Entertrainment / Tulga alledged (by GN) misbehavior, totally untouchable by players.

In the US, exploiters would often have their money removed. Patches would be rolled and applied to close the "holes".

In the EU, partly due to the forever conflictual relations, GN would get delayed patches and the server differences that arose (due to having a common "ancestor" game that kind of branched over time) made often impossible to apply patches that would crash our shard and needed rollback. GN were not developers so could not "fix" anything but by hand, nor were really qualified to touch databases like a proper DB admin. This trend of differing servers grew over time, enough that when I got migrated on the US I could see a real difference in less bugs, performance (despite the trans-continental lag vs GN being at 80 miles off my home).

This sounds like that it must be 100% sure that such money made it to the US servers.

Second, as I said above:

"Sure that it's possible: yes.
Sure that Vi received any request for importing one of those characters: no."

If you read and imply that "possible" = 100% sure, be my guest.


Edit: for me possible = there is a chance that something can happen.
It's fully probable that not a single one of the imported characters got illicit money, but the possibility is here.
It's the identical to an example of having an Euro 4 certified low emissions car. If you never fix nor check it, after 10 years it may or may be not still conforming to it.

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

QuO this system not only let the most rich win. but also let them pay practically nothing for their plot! this would be really unfair.

if they win because of their money i also want them to loose this money!

second i like to add there are no poorer players then those from unity.

prices on chaos are crazy.

and i thought i was one of the more rich with my 24 gold

2x 5.6 gold from my 2 plots so actually just 12.8 gold imported

i realize i dont stand ANY chance at the auctions.

i hope the devs keep to this idea they said that they want to 'satisfy' everybody.
well devs its not easy to satisfy sombody who lost 2x 75x75 plots fully build and doesnt have money to buy anything like that again...
perhaps many islands in the air like floating island with some trees and huge plots plenty? would be lovely if those islands moved around in the air too.. going to sleep above sslanis to wake up in the morning and look out of the window to see aug

[Mysk]

Second, as I said above:

"Sure that it's possible: yes.
Sure that Vi received any request for importing one of those characters: no."

If you read and imply that "possible" = 100% sure, be my guest.

Just to clear this up: I wrote my message while you were posting the other message. It was a response to your message before that one and at that time it sounded like that.

[Salis]

See that is why I proposed my system in the first place. Accusations will be made between players. This will disrupt our community a lot.

My system does away with all that (see higher in thread):
Pro:
1. Only need to amass the coin for the largest plot you want to bid on
2. You can "bid" on as many plots as you are interested in. Surplus coin is returned to your purse after reclaim.
3. Do it in you own playing time: no need to stay up till 5am in the morning to put an extra bid in (like with open bidding or even proxy bidding)
4. No need to accuse an other player of having illegally amassed coin, be it true or not. Anyone has had the chance to gather enough money to pay for the Empireal value of properties.
5. You do not need to compete with players sitting on 4 mithril. So no need to invest 20 Gold into a plot only you are interested in. (Blind bidding)
6. Everyone has an equal chance (determined by your willingness to buy extra subscriptions if you want to up your chances).
7. All properties are dealt with in one big swoop, and by popularity (number of bidders, if equal random property chosen) the order of distribution is determined.

Contras:
1. People with more Real Life money have a higher chance of winning a bid, by buying more subscriptions. Sorry but life always sucks at this. Still be glad someone is paying Vi for a higher chance to obtain a virtual property. And this won't make a big difference for those 101x101 and higher plots, well yes they could triple or even more there chances of winning that 121x121 plot, but if 400 or more people are bidding, 1/200 or 1/100, still is in my opinion a fairly low chance. Yep I'm sure anyone would take a shot at those plots.
2. People with that hard earned mithril coin will grumble, why they did all that work.
3. You cannot determine a priority list, so you can only bid on those properties you really want. Is this actually a contra (The reclaim routines will be easier to make, and it is again equal for all players)
4. Due to 3: more plots could end up on the market free for the first player to buy. But is this really so bad? You got a chance to obtain them in a auction, so don't begrudge someone who could login a bit earlier to obtain it.

Salis

[QuO]

QuO this system not only let the most rich win. but also let them pay practically nothing for their plot! this would be really unfair.

if they win because of their money i also want them to loose this money!

second i like to add there are no poorer players then those from unity.

prices on chaos are crazy.

and i thought i was one of the more rich with my 24 gold

I don't think so Thangorodrim, they could adjust the formula to allow someone like yourself to have a shot at a 75x75 for sure. It might cost you every penny you have if lots of others want it but bid on a good number of such plots and maybe you get lucky... or at least end up with a 60x60 or something. Nothing is totally fair though and I realize you are wanting to see the ultra rich spend their coin but not all of the the wealthy have "ill gotten" coin and I don't think they should have to spend every penny they have on a plot.

The ill gotten coin floating around (if there is any at this time) almost certainly can't be located. Someone with LOTS of coin might have collected it from guildies as they were leaving the game, for example. That is not ill gotten but they are certainly rich if they can do what they want with it. I know of a particular player who probably made close to 100g selling gems to the vendor before the revamp a few years ago. That was before my mining was high enough to do it and so I missed the opportunity. It is very difficult for all things to be fair so there have been a lot of wealthy ones who did something legal at the right time and got fairly rich before that method of earning coin was nerfed.

I really hate to see someone with a lot of hard earned coin having to roll the die to compete for one of the better plots against someone who really can't afford that particular plot... and I realize that my method allows this. It is only an alternative to a wide open bidding system (which is what I prefer even though I have little coin).

[Zexoin]

Very nice idea QuO.

[Terao]

Every system has pro and contras, there is always someone that would not be satisfied with what ever system will be used, either the ultra rich ones or those with a "normal" amount of money. I've actually around 20g, half of it done since rebirth on Order.

The most fair system would be a reclaim working totally randomly. Not giving plots back to sale community by community. Just giving free a plot here, and another one at the other end of the world with totaly weird times, randomly every 5-20 minutes one plot will be set for sale without giving any information on a channel, provided informations on several homepages need to be switched off during the time of working reclaim.

First 24 hours after reclaim the price will be x6, the next 24 hours x5, 24h x3, 24h x2, then will be set to normal, reclaiming starting on a Monday, everyone has the same chance of purchasing a plot, everyone needs to search and some luck.

[Zarp]

The biggest advantage of a properly done auction would be that it takes a lot of money out of the economy. The richest will get the best plots, but that's still better than "the one with the most RL money", "the one with the most free time to camp plots" or "the one with the best network of buddies who tell him which plot is up for sale at any moment".

The way I'd like to see the auction done is by blind bid, minimum bid being the imperial price, and the winner of the auction pays the amount of money that he bid. The intention of those who ask for an auction where the price will ultimately be less than the winning bid is clear: They have the most money, want a procedure that guarantees they'll get the best plots, and still want to have the most money after the auction. That's not how it should be done - you want something, you pay the price for it.

[Landowyn]

The biggest advantage of a properly done auction would be that it takes a lot of money out of the economy. The richest will get the best plots, but that's still better than "the one with the most RL money", "the one with the most free time to camp plots" or "the one with the best network of buddies who tell him which plot is up for sale at any moment".

The way I'd like to see the auction done is by blind bid, minimum bid being the imperial price, and the winner of the auction pays the amount of money that he bid. The intention of those who ask for an auction where the price will ultimately be less than the winning bid is clear: They have the most money, want a procedure that guarantees they'll get the best plots, and still want to have the most money after the auction. That's not how it should be done - you want something, you pay the price for it.

I'm sorry, but I think you've got that exactly bass ackwards. I think the people with just enough coin to buy a good plot would like to have a shot at one. If it's the aim of the developers to take money out of this game at this point, then they are just a day later and a dollar short on that score.

Being among the "have nots" when it comes to coin -- I never considered having 100 or more gold to be all that important -- I think its appropriate for the game, at this point, to be able to reward all players for their diligence and hard work in the game, even if they haven't been collecting coin since the dawn of time.

[velveeta]

i am sorry, lan, i don't understand - do you think subscriptions should automatically come with a plot, not just the ability to get a plot?
then how do you partition them out? who get what plot? or do you make them all the same size?

[Landowyn]

i am sorry, lan, i don't understand - do you think subscriptions should automatically come with a plot, not just the ability to get a plot?
then how do you partition them out? who get what plot? or do you make them all the same size?

Where did you get that idea from me? If you read any of my previous posts, you see I favor a lottery based on the actual plot value. Not "he with the most money wins." I get enough of that kind of competition in real life without having to suffer through it in digital realms.

[velveeta]

Where did you get that idea from me? If you read any of my previous posts, you see I favor a lottery based on the actual plot value. Not "he with the most money wins." I get enough of that kind of competition in real life without having to suffer through it in digital realms.

no offense meant, it was a serious question.......
i have read the previous posts the day they were posted (i click the 'new posts' link...) but did not refresh myself.......

i apologise if i misunderstood your post, lan - the reason i asked for clarification!

(actually, i was waiting for a certain member of the forums to thank me for asking for clarification!!!! )