The primal rage and the Fangs of fury.

[Zanon]

Now that dragons can get both lightning and ice breath, which distinguished a helian dragon from a lunus, i think its time we revise the arop crystal given at the end.

According to the lore books when you start the game it does state that both helian and lunus have both casting and melee fighting dragons so lets rule out the helian = caster and Lunus = melee.

One does the rop due to which lore attracts one the most. Many players however end up doing lunus just to fly faster.

So why the crystals, why bring em up. Well so one can quest for the other crystal of course. Why not. Right now the most beneficial is the Fangs of fury which means those who went helian but like to fight melee well cannot benifit from such a good crystal. The lunus who would have loved to try casting (lol) could benifit from the primal rage crystal.

Id suggest might as well make the other crystal questable give more choice to all dragons as on to how they want to play their characters. Give more diversity.

[Knossos]

Speaking for my alt Knoble Wyrm, I support this suggestion.

Knossos

[Blue Hasia]

i approve this suggestion

[Shian]

Yes please.

[Kaiit]

Not a bad idea, i know of a couple Helians that woul approve of this.

[Xanthia]

*counts* I sixth it!

[Kesqui]

Now that dragons can get both lightning and ice breath, which distinguished a helian dragon from a lunus

Which has actually been the case for quite a long time - certainly since I came back to the game in 2009 - it was one of the most pleasant surprises seeing as when Kesqui did ROP nobody knew that you'd have a limited breath weapon based on faction - it wasn't one of the known differences between Helian and Lunus - and was actually one of the (many) reasons I originally left.

So why the crystals, why bring em up. Well so one can quest for the other crystal of course. Why not.

I'm not sure how this would work, personally. I wish the statistical difference between Lunus and Helian was greater, not less - to make the choice between the factions more of a choice and less of a "well, might as well go Lunus, I can get all the Helian goodies anyway."

I would prefer to see a higher bonus to the faction-relevant skill so that an ancient Helian caster will significantly out-damage an ancient Lunus styled as a caster (and approaches/equals the damage done by an ancient Lunus melee dragon), for example. Seeing as although the lore says there's Lunus casters and Helian melee, the game mechanics ... well, the game mechanics ACTUALLY encourage everyone to go essentially melee, but that's beside the point of the game mechanics awarding a small bonus to Lunus melee and Helian primal.

Of course, I wish that the choice of faction also affected how you react to and treat bipeds - that Helian conversation choices are polite, if perhaps a little condescending, while Lunus conversation choices are... rather less so, and that the biped reactions to factioned dragons are slightly different (even if the quest itself remains the same).

[Zanon]

Which has actually been the case for quite a long time - certainly since I came back to the game in 2009 - it was one of the most pleasant surprises seeing as when Kesqui did ROP nobody knew that you'd have a limited breath weapon based on faction - it wasn't one of the known differences between Helian and Lunus - and was actually one of the (many) reasons I originally left.



I'm not sure how this would work, personally. I wish the statistical difference between Lunus and Helian was greater, not less - to make the choice between the factions more of a choice and less of a "well, might as well go Lunus, I can get all the Helian goodies anyway."

I would prefer to see a higher bonus to the faction-relevant skill so that an ancient Helian caster will significantly out-damage an ancient Lunus styled as a caster (and approaches/equals the damage done by an ancient Lunus melee dragon), for example. Seeing as although the lore says there's Lunus casters and Helian melee, the game mechanics ... well, the game mechanics ACTUALLY encourage everyone to go essentially melee, but that's beside the point of the game mechanics awarding a small bonus to Lunus melee and Helian primal.

Of course, I wish that the choice of faction also affected how you react to and treat bipeds - that Helian conversation choices are polite, if perhaps a little condescending, while Lunus conversation choices are... rather less so, and that the biped reactions to factioned dragons are slightly different (even if the quest itself remains the same).

If you exclude the crystal from the picture and give both helians and lunus dragons the same sets of armor, there is 0 difference in dps, going melee or caster, that 20 to primal and 20 to tooth and claw is minute at best.

What you seek is a huge overhaul for both factions to have a noitciable difference, Truth is there is not the manpower or dedication for it. Many will protest. Lunus and Helian are just fascades over your dragon, its mostly the lore which attracted you to the faction.

How many people will get angered because they decided to be a helian but enjoy melee and because of this huge stat change you insist on happening will affect their preformance. So may i ask Why go with such a gradual change instead of giving people choice? Let them be what they want to be and the factions have little to no effect on their choice. Would that not be better?

Helians want to Govern over the naka they want to be their leaders which is why they accept them more than lunus do. Lunus want nothing to do with the naka and only want to be praised as they once were in the past. All in all both factions seek the same thing just differently , to be over the naka , to be reconized as superior.

The lore should never dictate the str, int and other stats of a dragon. What I ask for only give more choice to the player. After all were not forced to do one or the other, so why not make the crystals aval to all. There is no harm in it.

[Kesqui]

If you exclude the crystal from the picture and give both helians and lunus dragons the same sets of armor, there is 0 difference in dps, going melee or caster, that 20 to primal and 20 to tooth and claw is minute at best.

Precisely. Assuming the dragons in question have the same training point allocations, have the same armour and use the same attack, you won't see any practical difference between Helian and Lunus.

What you seek is a huge overhaul for both factions to have a noitciable difference, Truth is there is not the manpower or dedication for it. Many will protest. Lunus and Helian are just fascades over your dragon, its mostly the lore which attracted you to the faction.

Yes, it probably would be a pretty sizeable overhaul; I'd have thought that adding the following (which are just example ideas and are not to be taken as "must happen or else" or anything other than one person's idle pony list) would bring as many problems as benefits:

After Adulthood, training with Xerix gives more Tooth and Claw points to Lunus dragons than to Helians
After Adulthood, training with Lisandia gives more Primal points to Helians than to Lunus
... but what do you do with high-level hatchlings? Give them the lower quantity, then ramp it up when they choose a faction?
Adulthood for a Lunus gives a significantly higher bonus to Tooth and Claw than current (and a special melee-based attack that's Lunus-only)
Adulthood for a Helian gives a significantly higher bonus to Primal than current (and a special primal-based attack that's Helian-only)
Ancienthood for a Lunus gives a huge bonus to Tooth and Claw
Ancienthood for a Helian gives a huge bonus to Primal

because of this huge stat change you insist on happening

There's no "insist" about it - I said "I would prefer if" not "I demand or I ragequit". That's a statement of what I personally would like, not the direction I feel the game has to go or else. I personally would like there to be a far greater difference between Lunus and Helian - not just "this one had to go harass Talon, that one had to go decide what to do with the ring" - to make the choice significant, rather than "I want to fly now, I'll pick Lunus; I already have a Lunus, so I'll go Helian." Seeing as the game itself - and the way bipeds react to you / you react to bipeds - doesn't make the distinction between the factions at all except in terms of your stats.

Heck, if they swapped the stat changes out and changed quests so that, for example, a Lunus Adult quest doesn't ask for biped-made materials (but asks for more dragon-crafted ones - but then that's because I remember very-Lunus Kesqui had to have a steel rune stylus to get her Khutit form...) but the Helian quest does.... I'd be equally happy. Make the original lore-difference between the factions more significant instead of the stat-difference.

I'm well aware that I have no more effect on the game than any other lone player does And, of course, if everyone-but-me wants both Ancient crystals, and the devs listen and let everyone quest for both....

I'll stick to the faction-appropriate crystals for mine.

[LOVWYRM]

I do not care about the Helian crystal.
Why?

As long as my hybride Lov makes as much damage with spells and bolts and heals all she needs to heal- a Helian could not do better- why care about the crystal? As I said it so many times before: Helians need an equivalent to the melee damage-then the discussion about the crystal would make sense to me.

Not sure how much Fof could really help a helian.

On the other hand: I do not use Fof regulary. Its in a claw I rarely wear.
Those crystals are overestimated in my eyes (if you have other nice claws for choice).

[Zanon]

I do not care about the Helian crystal.
Why?

As long as my hybride Lov makes as much damage with spells and bolts and heals all she needs to heal- a Helian could not do better- why care about the crystal? As I said it so many times before: Helians need an equivalent to the melee damage-then the discussion about the crystal would make sense to me.

Not sure how much Fof could really help a helian.

On the other hand: I do not use Fof regulary. Its in a claw I rarely wear.
Those crystals are overestimated in my eyes (if you have other nice claws for choice).

Because helian is a title , not a spec. because I go helian does not equate me as a caster. I have both helian and lunus dragons and i know its only a title. I have more dragons just for fun

because there is really no difference potential from being helian or lunus is why i am suggesting to allow dragons to quest for the crystals.

[Dragonboy]

So because the game currently pushes players who went Helian towards Primal and Lunus towards Tooth and Claw the faction differences should be made even more non-existent by allowing both Xtals to be quested for?

Sorry I do not agree, better would be although it is more work to make Helians / Lunus choice separate from Casting / Melee.
Let Hatchlings first finish RoP, do their Ascension into adult (give the ability to fly) and then let the faction leader give the bonus of the players choosing for Caster or Melee. After the initial choice made after RoP, during ARoP you will have no choice anymore for the headscale and Crystal it will be melee or caster as per your initial choice.

However as far as I am concerned when a choice is made it is done, finito, finished.

[Thicklesip]

However as far as I am concerned when a choice is made it is done, finito, finished.

It doesn't look like anyone is disagreeing here in the slightest. The trouble is that there's at least two choices to make, and only one possible outcome.

Currently, the "biggest" concerns are:
-choosing whether they want melee or caster bonuses.
-choosing whether they wish to throw their lot in with the Lunus or Helian political movements.

So the possible choice combinations are melee-Lunus, melee-Helian, caster-Lunus, and caster-Helian. But only two of these are "supported" under the current system. I believe the cry is less that people wish to avoid making a choice, so much as they want to make... MORE choices, that aren't lumped together. So unyoking "I am a Lunus" from "my bonuses are to hitting things" would be largely welcome, no matter the form. I do very much like your suggestion of having hatchlings get their wings and THEN discuss with their leader what their bonuses are, to follow them forevermore.

Assuming the devs wish to stick with having some sort of mechanical differences tied to choices in adult/ancienthood-- which isn't set in stone until Amon pops his head into the thread to tell us so -- I'd be thrilled to have MULTIPLE choices, instead of having to make a single blanket decision.

[Guaran]

I've suggested something similiar in the past: http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=22066

Get rid of the crystals alltogether, and make the buffs a passive bonus granted upon completion of AROP. Grant both buffs to both factions.

Factions do not = combat style. Only ROP mentions that Helians are "slightly more scholarly" which I suppose infers they have studied the use of Primal magic a bit more, and sounds more like a mentality or attitude. The lore also goes on to state that some of the best Primal Healers were of the Lunus political faction. However Chiconis is where the Primal Trainer is, who is of the Helian political faction (so maybe that rubs off a bit more on those who hang around her). But her training is available freely to all dragons. Same can be said for melee combat traing available to all dragons as well.

The ROP bonuses, Path of the Lunus (+20 t&c, +40 flame resist), and Path of the Helian (+20 Primal, +20 spirit resist, +20 ice resist), are enough to satisfy the lore in the respects that "Lunus prefer to fight, not talk" and "Helians are more scholarly" (which infers maybe a little bit better study of Primal magics).

The dev's years ago made the mistake of tying the political factions to combat styles (in an effort to create some combat differentiation, good intentions poorly implemented).

Creating some combat variation is fine, but it should not be tied to political faction.

There are still dragons around who did Rop BEFORE any of the later, political tied items came along: Breath of Ice (used to be Helian only), Breath of Lightning (used to be Lunus only), Fangs of Fury crystal (Lunus ancient only), Primal Rage crystal (Helian ancient only).

Thankfully the devs decided to untie the Breath attacks from the factions awhile back. The only thing left to untie is these crystals. Get rid of them completely. Make the bonuses passive.

Tying the combat styles to factions might have worked, had there been a little better spell inventory for Casters to use. Prime Bolt is way too slow, Primal Cast was very late arrival (but thanks dev's for this), and healing spells were only a few hots and one heal ability on a 5 minute cooldown. Now we at least have Primal Health. But these changes wouldn't be enough to make a caster a viable combast choice in most situations.

Truth is, the Dragon Adventure school is a Hybrid school that is primarily melee. Similiar to Reaver, Paladin, Knight of Creation for examples. But those schools have much more filled out spell inventories, so even they are better at spell usage than Dragons are.

Dragons are supposed to be "Masters of Primal Magic", however this never really materialized. Perhaps too much spellpower in a strong melee class would just be too much.

Giving all dragons both sets of abilities passively is simply the fair thing to do. It isn't going to make a huge difference to mainly melee fighters unless they chose Helian when doing Rop. And let's face it, the Dragon school is mainly melee. This is just the way it is. Everyone who chose Helian got a nerf when the AROP crystals came out. This will resolve that.

[Zanon]

I've suggested something similiar in the past: http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=22066

Get rid of the crystals alltogether, and make the buffs a passive bonus granted upon completion of AROP. Grant both buffs to both factions.

Factions do not = combat style. Only ROP mentions that Helians are "slightly more scholarly" which I suppose infers they have studied the use of Primal magic a bit more, and sounds more like a mentality or attitude. The lore also goes on to state that some of the best Primal Healers were of the Lunus political faction. However Chiconis is where the Primal Trainer is, who is of the Helian political faction (so maybe that rubs off a bit more on those who hang around her). But her training is available freely to all dragons. Same can be said for melee combat traing available to all dragons as well.

The ROP bonuses, Path of the Lunus (+20 t&c, +40 flame resist), and Path of the Helian (+20 Primal, +20 spirit resist, +20 ice resist), are enough to satisfy the lore in the respects that "Lunus prefer to fight, not talk" and "Helians are more scholarly" (which infers maybe a little bit better study of Primal magics).

The dev's years ago made the mistake of tying the political factions to combat styles (in an effort to create some combat differentiation, good intentions poorly implemented).

Creating some combat variation is fine, but it should not be tied to political faction.

There are still dragons around who did Rop BEFORE any of the later, political tied items came along: Breath of Ice (used to be Helian only), Breath of Lightning (used to be Lunus only), Fangs of Fury crystal (Lunus ancient only), Primal Rage crystal (Helian ancient only).

Thankfully the devs decided to untie the Breath attacks from the factions awhile back. The only thing left to untie is these crystals. Get rid of them completely. Make the bonuses passive.

Tying the combat styles to factions might have worked, had there been a little better spell inventory for Casters to use. Prime Bolt is way too slow, Primal Cast was very late arrival (but thanks dev's for this), and healing spells were only a few hots and one heal ability on a 5 minute cooldown. Now we at least have Primal Health. But these changes wouldn't be enough to make a caster a viable combast choice in most situations.

Truth is, the Dragon Adventure school is a Hybrid school that is primarily melee. Similiar to Reaver, Paladin, Knight of Creation for examples. But those schools have much more filled out spell inventories, so even they are better at spell usage than Dragons are.

Dragons are supposed to be "Masters of Primal Magic", however this never really materialized. Perhaps too much spellpower in a strong melee class would just be too much.

Giving all dragons both sets of abilities passively is simply the fair thing to do. It isn't going to make a huge difference to mainly melee fighters unless they chose Helian when doing Rop. And let's face it, the Dragon school is mainly melee. This is just the way it is. Everyone who chose Helian got a nerf when the AROP crystals came out. This will resolve that.

have them intergrated would put them into good use for sure. granting them both will allow dragons to play as they please.