Avatar is of my character Akrion, snipped from Hrae's Hoard of Creatures by the excellent moss loving artist Nambroth. <3
i think a lot of the problem and concerns about this socketing issue is due to a major misconception as to what a tool claw really is, and does for a dragon.
this misconception seems to be party to both some players and the Devs themselves, forgetting what and why this item was added in the first place. it is nothing to do with a balancing issue. please bear with me while i try to explain the miconception and it's practical use as well.
to start: the dragon tool claw is "not" a dragon tool. the most common miconception i see going on here.
now lets see if i can make this a bit more clear: bipeds get a tool and socket it 3 times. in this case lets say a smelting tong (this may not be correct in setup, but it's just for a quick example) in those 3 sockets they can add the necessary crystals such as power/str and a cog that adds smelting. now everytime they pick up that tool, those crystals are always there, and in use.
now look at a dragon: they do not have tools like smelting tongs that can take sockets. dragons instead, have abilities which can "not" be socketed. hence the tool claw (it add no bonus to the craft) but here we socket the claw and that is a dragons only way to use the same crystal/cog functions as the permanent ones in the biped smelting tongs.
now whether the tool claw has 3 sockets or 10 sockets for T5+, dragons still only benefit from the 3 crystals inserted that are usable by the "ability" they enable. basically the claw is only the sockets dragons need to carry around, because their abilities can not be socketed as a biped tool can.
so if a tool claw had 10 sockets and you added gatherer cog, lairshapers cog, spellcrafters cog, power, dex, focus, strength and so on.. the ones not needed by the ability enabled by the dragon are null, until they switch abilities. just as a bipeds crystals are changed when they switch to a different tool.
so say they enable the essence harvesting ability, the following crystals would be the only ones in use at that time: gatherer's cog, power crystal and what's the 3rd one? focus? no other crystals installed in the tool claw would be in effect.
it would be a waste of time to try and use it as a weapon claw. so that factor remains out of the question, since dragon tool claw can only accept tool crystals and cogs. and can only access and use the cog and crystals for that ability the dragon has enabled at that time.
bipeds on the other hand, have 3 with them, already embedded into their tools. and when they switch tools the crystals are changed by what they installed in their next tool.
dragons weren't originally designed to have a need to carry tools. and the claw was created so they could use crystals and cogs, same as a biped can. but dragons needed a seperate way to do this. hence the introduction of the tool claw.
the only thing making it limited to 3 sockets does, is revert the dragons to needing tools on top of the fact that they were designed with abilities, to prevent them from needing to carry the extra items.
i hope this brings a better understanding to those who are confused, and think that having a tool claw with more than 1, 2 or even 3 sockets is either overpowering a dragon, or giving them some sort of bonus a biped does not have. because that is clearly not the case, and is the main reason i can not see, why the devs are giving us such a hard time about one claw with 4 sockets. as i said, if it could hold 10 sockets, it still would work the same way.
it is not a 4 socketed tool, it is only a glove (so to speak) that carries the same socketing effects biped tools already have permanently enbedded. please keep that in mind.
i hope this clears up a lot of confusion, though i fear it might just create more... and sorry for the length of this post
If you are evaluating tool claws as a whole, which is what it seems like by putting in a t6 tool claw, I have a request. Please if you must put skill number requirements on the tool claws rather then just craft levels, use dragon skill numbers for the base.
It looks to me like the skill numbers on existing crafted tool claws are a copy paste from a biped mining pick. Dragons can't take up miner school for the 11 skill points per level in mining. We get 7 points per level and every ten levels a 10 point boost if we do our craft ability quest.
If I could use as an example, the t3/lv40 tool claw. Newer dragon player crafters are usually rather excited to hit lv40 for a two socket tool claw. But after they get it, they discover to their dismay they can't equip it. Their mining skill is too low. They simply have to overlevel the tool claw before they can use it.
But what about tech'ed crafting scales you say? Unless that new player is in a guild that will supply the comps for them, a new level 40 dragon isn't going to be able to gather comps on their own for a new set of craft scales right at lv40. Easiest solution currently is just grind more craft levels, which is a let down for that player who thought a shiney double socketed tool claw was within reach. This pattern continues with each higher level claw.
In conclusion, could we please have the skill numbers looked at from a dragon perspective if we must have skill number limits.
Then they should have vetted their source before using it as a fact to waggle a finger at the devs... (who know it doesn't exist anyway) and cause more drama.
Now.. to weigh in on the actual discussion:
***********STOP THE MADNESS!!!!!**************
T6 claw/T5 claw the only real difference is the number of sockets: True
What will we put in those sockets?
1 - cog
2 - supporting stat crystal
3 - either another supporting stat crystal or holding crystal
4 - potentially the leftover crystal from 3.
But what do I see when people use their crafting crystals?
3 Cogs!
Why would you use 3 Cogs instead of the more efficient and bonus giving set up above?
Because we don't NEED stat crystals in the claws to get to 4:1 on T6 (3:1 on Adamantium.. our one vice).
So WHY is everyone upset about not getting an extra socket on the crafting claw?
Because we're LAZY. Hey, I said WE. I did the same thing. I have all 3 dragon cogs in my T6 claw and a holding crystal.
It's just nice to not have to worry about switching crystals.
Having said that.. am I going to really complain if I have to go back to using my T5 claw with only 3 sockets?
No, know why?
Because it irks the hell out of me to have to put on my set of mining scales just to equip it in the first place! If this thread hadn't started, I was ready to bug it for having such a high requirement for skill (100 DCRA and 100 DLSH dragons can't just pick this up and put it on even with maxed strength). Wouldn't I have looked silly?
Anyway.. let it go.
If we get dragon breath, great. If we got a capacity boost with it (much more useful) then that's even better.
But for those of you that already have it (and let's be honest here.. that would be pretty much everyone) it's not like they are taking it away.
My two cents.
Last edited by Mensar; June 8th, 2012 at 11:38 AM.
Mensarian state of mind: Being without one completely!
This is by far THE MOST epicly failed post ever...
(I nominate this post for some kind of reward in the fail department if their is one.)
EVERYTHING you just said in this post works for a ped also.
Do you think we want 50 tools in our vault? nope!
And just so you know, even with 3 sockets in a tool its not enough..
1 sockets: cog
2 sockets: carrying crystal
3 sockets: str, focus, dext, etc. (lets remember, each crafting ability can utilize more then one type.. thus requires more sockets!!)
4 sockets: movement crystals!!
5 sockets: wards/resistences
6 socket: armor, health crystals? (some people NEED these)
I know you don't see the point still cause your to dead focused on having a tool claw with 15 sockets and giving dragons jewelry so that way ya'll can 1 swipe SoG.. but for real, re-read all that crap you just posted and realize...
All that goes both ways! ha, ha, ha.. ha.... ha.
Peds need to change out crystals waaaaaaaaaaaay more then dragons have to. Peds have waay more to deal with and waay more to remember.
Just a little drunk dwarven bi-ped wreaking havoc in chaos.
Based upon feedback, we've changed Dragon Breath on the Prototype Tool Claw to Armor and we've lowered the requirements to use to reflect the rate at which Dragons acquire Mining and Quarrying.
Oh and lets please keep this discussion civil or I will delete the entire thread.
"Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar
Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)
"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein
Heh, I guess you meant to write "Amon" and not "Northwind" at the beginning of your post. I'm not the one that need to be convinced and if you check my posts you will see that I share exactly the same view. Anyway, since I play for less than a year, I really appreciate the insight on how the tool claws made their appearance in the game.
Now allow me to be blunt and go to what i actually see as the root of the problem.
I mentioned that Tool Claws don't have a skill cap only to highlight the fact that a T6 Tool Claw actually needs to have 4 sockets and be better than a T5 else there would be no incentive to use it considering the higher requirements (1000 skill).
Of course this is breaking the "patterns" mentioned by Velea and this is what is actually fueling the fire.
And i really don't see why those patterns should be valid.
Let's see what we have in terms of T6 equipment:
1 ) Biped tools are the only t6 items (only 1 tool actually exists) that have 3 tech slots (and allow 3 sockets).
2 ) We already know that T6 tool claw is designed to have 4 tech slots from the Prototype which is in game for how long already? And don't come to pretend the Prototype is a BUG. It is absolutely valid and it respects the progression of the previous Tool Claw in terms of both requirements and benefits.
3) T6 repaired weapons for bipeds have 5 tech slots (3 embedded under the form of bonuses to skill/stats and 2 open so players can add their favorite techs/sockets)
4) T6 repaired necklace has 5 tech slots too (4 embedded and one open that can be used for a socket)
5) T6 repaired rings/earrings have 5 slots too (4 embedded and one open to add a tech at creation)
Now where is the pattern? What is creating that pattern you mention, Velea?
The Fact that Biped Tools and Dragon Tool Claws are not the same thing - it is not creating a pattern.
The fact that the only T6 biped tool (the t6 confectioner knife) is "castrated" to have only 3 sockets is not realy making a pattern.
Well, this is not as disturbing considering that bipeds can get up to 11 points per level for processing and 10 for gathering/manufacturing - augumented with the fact that they can get more bonuses on the armors/jewelry than dragons can.
Ok, so all above considered, although not entirely fair, I could live with the fact that T6 biped tools should come with only 3 sockets.
Now, since Dragon Tool Claws are not actually tools but pieces of equipment like gloves/armors used for techs/sockets, there is no pattern breaking and we can easily see that they're really meant to take 4 sockets. More over, Dragons get only 7/8 points per crafting level and they can benefit, albeit only a really small benefit, from the 4 sockets on the tool claws.
I would also expect to see T6 dragon repaired equipment (Claws, Tool Claws, Armors) having 5-6 tech slots as well.
And please - dont bring the "hard to balance" argument since it doesnt stand at all. This is not a PVP game and 60-100 more strenght or somethingelse will not change the things too much.
We will still need 10 dragons and 3-4 bipeds to attempt to get the Queen.
PS. Mensar, this discution has the potential to settle all the future T6 dragon items - so i guess it is rather important.
PS2. Please "31 gold", be as supportive as anyone else was when you were crying about your hard earned cash. As a result, devs implemented a refunding system.
Last edited by Northwind; June 8th, 2012 at 02:37 PM.
Northwind * Ancient, Crafter, Lairshaper * 100/100/100
Northpole * Spoiled biped * 100 BTLM, 100 CLRC, 100 RVR, 100 RNGR, 100 MAGE, 100 WIZ, 100 SORC, 100 CONJ, 100 SPRT, 100 DRU, 100 HLR, 100 GRDN, 100 MON, 60 WAR, 44 BRSK/SPRM, 40 CHSW * 100 BLK, 100 OUT, 100 JWL, 100 ARM, 100 WPN, 100 FLE, 100 FIT, 100 MSN, 100 SCH, 87 SPL, 85 GTH, 85 MIN
Ah, I see that you settled for my "improved t5" tool claw suggestion or at least a similar one with reduced requirements.
Fair enough, Amon.
Now about the T6 Adamantium Tool Claw you mentioned yesterday? Can you give us some insight please? It will be what the Prototype was? The formula will be a dropped one? NPC merchant one?
Northwind * Ancient, Crafter, Lairshaper * 100/100/100
Northpole * Spoiled biped * 100 BTLM, 100 CLRC, 100 RVR, 100 RNGR, 100 MAGE, 100 WIZ, 100 SORC, 100 CONJ, 100 SPRT, 100 DRU, 100 HLR, 100 GRDN, 100 MON, 60 WAR, 44 BRSK/SPRM, 40 CHSW * 100 BLK, 100 OUT, 100 JWL, 100 ARM, 100 WPN, 100 FLE, 100 FIT, 100 MSN, 100 SCH, 87 SPL, 85 GTH, 85 MIN
I think you just stated the obvious here.
The point was dragons would like to be able to have an equal footing with bipeds. A change to a claw that would only help cut down on the number of claws in a vault.
I'm not sure why you are so anti-dragon it it really does come across in many of your posts. Was a dragon mean to you when you started playing?
"Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar
Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)
"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein
And how it will be different than the T5 one?
Northwind * Ancient, Crafter, Lairshaper * 100/100/100
Northpole * Spoiled biped * 100 BTLM, 100 CLRC, 100 RVR, 100 RNGR, 100 MAGE, 100 WIZ, 100 SORC, 100 CONJ, 100 SPRT, 100 DRU, 100 HLR, 100 GRDN, 100 MON, 60 WAR, 44 BRSK/SPRM, 40 CHSW * 100 BLK, 100 OUT, 100 JWL, 100 ARM, 100 WPN, 100 FLE, 100 FIT, 100 MSN, 100 SCH, 87 SPL, 85 GTH, 85 MIN
"Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar
Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)
"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein
Come on, tell us all please.
What stat cap?
Northwind * Ancient, Crafter, Lairshaper * 100/100/100
Northpole * Spoiled biped * 100 BTLM, 100 CLRC, 100 RVR, 100 RNGR, 100 MAGE, 100 WIZ, 100 SORC, 100 CONJ, 100 SPRT, 100 DRU, 100 HLR, 100 GRDN, 100 MON, 60 WAR, 44 BRSK/SPRM, 40 CHSW * 100 BLK, 100 OUT, 100 JWL, 100 ARM, 100 WPN, 100 FLE, 100 FIT, 100 MSN, 100 SCH, 87 SPL, 85 GTH, 85 MIN
Dragon Tool Claws will now have a stat cap for Lairshaping, Scalecrafting and Spellcrafting of 250, 390, 530, 670, and 810.
They are released as needed. They're all made (have been for years), just a matter of creating the formulas and adding them in.So... T6 techs are going to be released soon for everything?
In some cases it hasn't made sense with no (or few) Tier 6 techniques.
"Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar
Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)
"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein
"Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar
Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)
"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein
Preposterous. This is a joke, isn't it?
I see that you are actually out to get the dragons - and only because you don't want to put 4 tech slots on T6 tool claws.
So be it, don't put them - but give T6 techs instead and leave the Tool claws as they were - without caps as they were since introduction.
PS. You actually do know that the caps are applied by the equivalent casted abilities that dragons are using to craft?
Everyone is aware of that except the dev team apparently.
Will you add caps to Dragon armors too? Because the Tool claws are closer to an armor piece than to a biped tool.
Northwind * Ancient, Crafter, Lairshaper * 100/100/100
Northpole * Spoiled biped * 100 BTLM, 100 CLRC, 100 RVR, 100 RNGR, 100 MAGE, 100 WIZ, 100 SORC, 100 CONJ, 100 SPRT, 100 DRU, 100 HLR, 100 GRDN, 100 MON, 60 WAR, 44 BRSK/SPRM, 40 CHSW * 100 BLK, 100 OUT, 100 JWL, 100 ARM, 100 WPN, 100 FLE, 100 FIT, 100 MSN, 100 SCH, 87 SPL, 85 GTH, 85 MIN
I don't think they are out to get dragons as they use them to draw in new players. One would hope that new players coming into the game would not be dissuaded from continuing to play it though.
A happy dragon is a yappy dragon and will continue to be a draw for others to come play.
I do have a question or two. Can a dragon play on a free account? Bipeds can I'm pretty sure. So wouldn't it make sense to keep the dragons happy and yappy?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)