A possible solution to the multi-class 'problem'

[evilkarl]

Rampant multiclassing is any multiclassing done by someone who has not earn't a single level. The number of actual schools don't matter its the fact people are handed schools on a platter thanks to the way XP is awarded.

20+ schools isn't rampant multiclassing if every one of those levels was earnt..its just a tad crazy :)

[Pharcellus]

Just to comment on this as well, Kwinn: you might want to read up on Storey Musgrave. His classes would be astronaut, consultant, motivational speaker, aircraft mechanic, test pilot, photographer, and trauma surgeon.

Yes, he can be all those things. He can even be good at all those things, but there is ONE thing he excels at which leaves the others in the dust. The rest of the things he may be (and indeed, anyone may be; I'm certainly more than a simple computer programmer) have varying levels of quality based on the amount of time and experience he has put into them. I certainly wouldn't expect him to be able to service a brand-spanking new F-22, for example. There are people who learn to take those things apart and put them together in their sleep, and that is the vast majority of what they do, all the time. He wouldn't hold a candle in a zephyr next to one of them. I have no doubt that he has the capacity to learn to be one of them, but it would be at the sacrifice of other, more important activities that I would much rather see him spend time on, like designing specialized tools to service the Hubble.

That's not to disparage him at all. He's one of our great heroes, and I have deep personal respect for his efforts and accomplishments. My point is that just because you may have some level of skill in something, or multiple somethings, does not make you an absolute expert in all of them. Hence, when relating this to multiclassing in a game, if you have any desire to model a semblance of a real knowledge and experience model, focus vs diversity has to be a consideration.

[Crazyfingers]

Since the introduction of the new "rares" I have fought everythingBUT fyakkis, flys, and tarantulas. Pretty much non stop killing of blue red purple green vex, ogres, wind golems, crimson scourge, veteran blights, blight kwellens, named mobs, ******** near everything in the game. Havent found one rare in 3+weeks.
Yet in that same time many of the fyakki, fly and tarantula herders have found half a dozen. So whats this have to do with multiclassing. Pretty much everything. Would a level 180 MC be herding bugs if there wasnt a reward? Would there be a half dozen leechers sitting behind him if he was fighting vexator groups? HEll NO
Either the 180 MC would go solo or in a WELL FORMED Group. Not abunch of leechers that would only be a hinderance. To be honest Herding 30 critters and nuking them is fun as hell. And having guildies benefit(gainxp)from it feels good. THAT SHOULD BE IT! No good loot for it, no techs, no rares. I guarantee if loot was put on theAPPROPRIATE critters the mass leeching and MC powerleveling would be vastly decreased. As it is right now you get the best of both worlds by herding bugs at the same time harming the game. Its the devs fault. Fix it.

No Multiclassers would be hunting these stupid bugsFULL time, hence less leeching. Maybe an occasional guild hunt to help some guildies but that would be the extent of it. Problem solved. The problem isnt the multiclassing its giving the reward to the ones that abuse it. They wouldnt be abusing it if there wasnt a reward for it.

Tweaking the Loot tables is the simpliest solution.

NimKhazad

[evilkarl]

Any loot going on those mobs aside from tech comps is poor planning. Fyakki, purple, tarants and flies should have only tech comps and hoard loot same goes for other farmables.

[Phillip]

i have said it all along: the problem is in the mobs, not multiclassing.

[LaughingOtter]

Tweaking the Loot tables is the simpliest solution.

Agreed.

However, that's only part of the solution. Harder creatures should drop better loot and have a higher chance for rare items. They don't drop squat right now. Even if the treasure tables of the farm animalsare left alone, the tables for creatures like abominations, WA, vexators & kwellen should be adjusted up so that you'll actually stand a chance of getting something worthwhile when you defeat an enemy worth fighting.

Multiclassing doesn't cause farming - farmable creatures that offer a highreward for low effort create an incentive for players to MC in a specific way in order to maximize their return. Change the incentive, and you change the behavior. If you want a rat to run a maze, stop putting the cheese right in front of them.

[LaughingOtter]

Hence, when relating this to multiclassing in a game, if you have any desire to model a semblance of a real knowledge and experience model, focus vs diversity has to be a consideration.

I yield my time to Mr. Heinlein. [;)]

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer,
cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects

[Scarn_de_Diabolic]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]LaughingOtter wrote: Just to comment on this as well, Kwinn: you might want to read up on Storey Musgrave. His classes would be astronaut, consultant, motivational speaker, aircraft mechanic, test pilot, photographer, and trauma surgeon.

Yes, he can be all those things. He can even be good at all those things, but there is ONE thing he excels at which leaves the others in the dust. The rest of the things he may be (and indeed, anyone may be; I'm certainly more than a simple computer programmer) have varying levels of quality based on the amount of time and experience he has put into them. I certainly wouldn't expect him to be able to service a brand-spanking new F-22, for example. There are people who learn to take those things apart and put them together in their sleep, and that is the vast majority of what they do, all the time. He wouldn't hold a candle in a zephyr next to one of them. I have no doubt that he has the capacity to learn to be one of them, but it would be at the sacrifice of other, more important activities that I would much rather see him spend time on, like designing specialized tools to service the Hubble.

That's not to disparage him at all. He's one of our great heroes, and I have deep personal respect for his efforts and accomplishments. My point is that just because you may have some level of skill in something, or multiple somethings, does not make you an absolute expert in all of them. Hence, when relating this to multiclassing in a game, if you have any desire to model a semblance of a real knowledge and experience model, focus vs diversity has to be a consideration.

Hence the reason you can put extra training points in certain areas. Also not all levels may be maxed out allowing foryou to be better in one field than others.

[refuse]

Any loot going on those mobs aside from tech comps is poor planning. Fyakki, purple, tarants and flies should have only tech comps and hoard loot same goes for other farmables.

I would like to see comps drop more often too.
Sill having to kill 100 mobs for 1 comp (ok, not quite that bad but still).


Another thing.

Wouldn't it be better to get rid of trophies?
Make them be like other quests. Get quest, go kill, return get reward. Instead of collect trophies and turn them in?

That would make a bit more sense. Turn all the trophy entries into comp drop entries.

[Pharcellus]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Pharcellus wrote:Hence, when relating this to multiclassing in a game, if you have any desire to model a semblance of a real knowledge and experience model, focus vs diversity has to be a consideration.



I yield my time to Mr. Heinlein. [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-5.gif[/img]

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer,
cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects

Yeah, I know that passage well. Completely irrelevant, though. Nice try! [:)]

[Phillip]

hahaha

it's a brickwall.

[Pharcellus]

No, the reason it is irrelevant is because it is tangential to the issue at hand.

No one is arguing that you can't learn to do more than one task competently (which is what Heinlein is talking about); I certainly am not. My argument is that you can't learn to do everything with a lifetime level of mastery, which is NOT what Heinlein was talking about, nor would he argue that we should. He certainly was not an example of such. I don't know of any operating systems designed and/or written by Heinlein; I know of no bridges designed and/or built by Heinlein; I know of no medical cures discovered by Heinlein (he surely had ample incentive to find one, being diagnosed with Tuberculosis early in his life).

Heinlein was a master literary genius. I think I certainly could have learned and practiced to be in his class of authors (but no more so than most anyone else), however, I would not be nearly as good an IT professional as I am now. Heinlein could have designed and written all the software I have thus far in my life, but he wouldn't have been as good an author as he was.

So, yes, specialization in a single, genetically-predisposed task is for lower-order lifeforms; mastery in all tasks is for gods. Lazarus Long, in comparison to your average heroic fantasy character, was a god, in this context.[;)]

I don't necessarily have a problem playing a game with god-like characters, either. I've played them (Amber RPG, D&D Immortals, our own unlimited power campaigns). They just don't make very good games in the long run, and they really don't make very good MMOGs, or at least no one has found a formula to make a good one. I also can't agree that Horizons is supposed to be that MMO, just because of unlimited multiclassing, since it was never a design goal for such.

[PJ]

You still arent' under the illusion that massivemulticlassing creates gods are you?

[Pharcellus]

You still arent' under the illusion that massivemulticlassing creates gods are you?

*reads his posts* I don't remember ever making such an assertion. Please feel free to point it out to me if I did, though.

Perhaps I am not the one having troubles with il(de-)lusions?

[LaughingOtter]

Yeah, I know that passage well. Completely irrelevant, though. Nice try! [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]

If you think it's irrelevant, you don't understand it.

[Juliana]

Multi-classing should be changed so that abilities transfer across at half of current level.

Example -A character with a currentlvl 20 class gains the benefits of lvl 10 or below abilities from other classes.

Currently characters gain the abilities from other classes at half the other classes lvl - so I can be lvl 20 atm, but gain lvl 50 abilities from any lvl 100 classes I have.

I do not think there is any problems with how spells and skills transfer.

[Pharcellus]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Pharcellus wrote:

Yeah, I know that passage well. Completely irrelevant, though. Nice try! [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]



If you think it's irrelevant, you don't understand it.

Maybe I understand it better than you realize. [;)]

But, we can go on and on forever with this "you don't understand!" "no, YOU don't understand!".. blah blah blah.

So what's yer point?

[Senkeleron Fell]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Pharcellus wrote:

Yeah, I know that passage well. Completely irrelevant, though. Nice try! [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]



If you think it's irrelevant, you don't understand it.

No, Pharcellus is right, it is irrelevant. We aren't talking about being able to do lots of disparate things, we are talking about Mastering how to do lots of things. Characters in this game can become EXPERTS at everything.

Heinlein wasn't saying you should be able to be an expert child care operative, expert tactician, expert butcher, expert helmsman, etc. etc.

[imported_Twelvebagger]

Since the introduction of the new "rares" I have fought everythingBUT fyakkis, flys, and tarantulas. Pretty much non stop killing of blue red purple green vex, ogres, wind golems, crimson scourge, veteran blights, blight kwellens, named mobs, ******** near everything in the game. Havent found one rare in 3+weeks.
Yet in that same time many of the fyakki, fly and tarantula herders have found half a dozen. So whats this have to do with multiclassing. Pretty much everything. Would a level 180 MC be herding bugs if there wasnt a reward? Would there be a half dozen leechers sitting behind him if he was fighting vexator groups? HEll NO
Either the 180 MC would go solo or in a WELL FORMED Group. Not abunch of leechers that would only be a hinderance. To be honest Herding 30 critters and nuking them is fun as hell. And having guildies benefit(gainxp)from it feels good. THAT SHOULD BE IT! No good loot for it, no techs, no rares. I guarantee if loot was put on theAPPROPRIATE critters the mass leeching and MC powerleveling would be vastly decreased. As it is right now you get the best of both worlds by herding bugs at the same time harming the game. Its the devs fault. Fix it.

No Multiclassers would be hunting these stupid bugsFULL time, hence less leeching. Maybe an occasional guild hunt to help some guildies but that would be the extent of it. Problem solved. The problem isnt the multiclassing its giving the reward to the ones that abuse it. They wouldnt be abusing it if there wasnt a reward for it.

Tweaking the Loot tables is the simpliest solution.

NimKhazad

WOW!

I hope the dev's read the above, excellent post Nim!

[Crazyfingers]

Are you all playing the same game as me? I have read and re-read these post and half of them have no merit at all. Some are great ideas but have nuthing to do with the current state of Horizons. Or anything even remotely close to helping without causing major shockwaves. Also alot of "ME" posts. What exactly is the problem with Multiclassing that some percieve? That its not realistic? That the MC can gather 30 mobs and a single class cant? That it makes players GODLIKE?

There is nuthing drastically wrong with MULTICLASSING! Build on it! A mmorpg is full of highs and lows. Mellow times, exciting times! Take the focus off multiclassing and make it something to do to fill the mellow times. Make treasure hunting, defending Istaria, crafting awesome gear, building awesome structures, participating in guild events, server wide events and quests the HIGH TIMES!

Multiclassing is great it allows endless hours of advancement. But make it also benefecial to be the best at one particular area! Beit nature magic, archery,one hand slash,shield making, crafting ice spells, chainmail armor, plate armor whatever.

MC isnt the problem, MC is the endgame! That is the problem.

NimKhazad