Blight Update Notes for July 12th, 2005. - modified -

[Bori Grimbattle]

The schools are already Tiered to make it difficult to make a top of the line triple tech'd item as it is without specializing. Bori, as a 100 Blacksmith can make a triple tech'd mithril 2 hand sword but needs a Tier 4 shop,jewelry and buffs to do so. If and when they do introduce the Tier 6 items I can see that he has to specialize in weaponsmith to be able to go any further in this craft.

So, leave the skill caps as they are. To raise them now would do little to improve the game but may drive many away.

This whole discussion is based on the upcoming changes to mithril and the fact that they are making it an alloy. However mithril does not exist in the real world so any claims that it should be "pure" and left unalloyed is based soley upon literature. If they decided to change the name from "mithril" to "lirhtim" then the argument that it should be pure is moot.

As far as the other point where metal workers have it harder then other classes this does not have to be either as long as the experiance is based on the number of resources used. So a person making a yew board would gain half as much experiance at the same level as a person making a mithirl (or lirhtim) bar.

As an added, you cannot "Power level" a craft as you can an adventure class unless you have somebody feeding you the raw resources like a high level adventurer feeds you MoBs. You still have to mine,process,decon to make any headway. Some resources, due to their proximity to a player built machine are easier then others but rather then changing the formula just insure those resources have the same proximity to a machine. We have been asking for a Channeller near the swamp for a long time now.

This is not the Forgotten Realms where Mithril is mithril, otherwise silk would be harvested from silkworms and not plants. The change to an alloy was inevitable due to the steel and cobalt precessing the mithril and I would expect adamantium to be the same. As long as the experiance gains are equitable versusone resource products I do not mind in the least.

[Archebold]

you will notice i did'nt leave out dragons in the mix of things in my first post.

there will have to be either a seperate xp ratio for dragon smelting skills to even the playing field or provide them with a quest oriented scale from a dragon trainer that will allow them to meet the skill to be optimum.

a level oriented quest that once completed would give them a boost to there smelting skill would even the playing field between bi-ped and dragon, the 8 points per level for smelting with dragons along with the teched strength scales at level 100 dragoncrafter would fall way short. this could also be incorporated into the AROP if need be. the quest giveing either a new ability for the boost or grants them a new scale for which to use to meet the smelting requirements.

I was not aware that there was'nt a dragoncraft trainer for smelting. I havent played a dragon since the second month after release, so he still sleeps. which is the reason i did'nt embelish on the topic in depth in reguards to dragons. Bows in a humble manor to the Mighty Dragons of Istaria.

[Senkeleron Fell]

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As an added, you cannot "Power level" a craft as you can an adventure class unless you have somebody feeding you the raw resources like a high level adventurer feeds you MoBs. You still have to mine,process,decon to make any headway. Some resources, due to their proximity to a player built machine are easier then others but rather then changing the formula just insure those resources have the same proximity to a machine. We have been asking for a Channeller near the swamp for a long time now.
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When people talk about powerleveling someone in crafting it isn't the same as in adventuring. In adventuring it is usually referring to taking someone who has no high levels, taking them out, and killing lots of things they couldn't normally kill so they get lots and lots of exp. With crafting it usually refers to a person powerleveling himself. And it is possible and it isn't hard. So if you have blacksmith at 100 with your huge cargo disk you go become a brand new miner. You lose your cargo gear, but doesn't affect your ability to gather huge amounts of ore in a short time and fill that disk. When you smelt that into bars you get lots of levels of miner. I have seen someone go from level 1 to level 10 in one crafting. That is what people are referring to when the talk about powerleveling crafting.

[Bori Grimbattle]

With crafting it usually refers to a person powerleveling himself. And it is possible and it isn't hard. So if you have blacksmith at 100 with your huge cargo disk you go become a brand new miner. You lose your cargo gear, but doesn't affect your ability to gather huge amounts of ore in a short time and fill that disk. When you smelt that into bars you get lots of levels of miner. I have seen someone go from level 1 to level 10 in one crafting. That is what people are referring to when the talk about powerleveling crafting.

You are using the knowledge gained to help you in another class with similar requirements. That to me is not powerlevelling but being efficient. For example, I started my career years ago as a Heavy Duty Mechanic by apprenticing and taking 4 years of tech school training. I then wrote my Automotive Mechanics ticket by working in the auto trade for 2 years and challenging the exam. I did not have to re-learn everything from the ground up as the two are quite similar and I did not have to spend another 4 years at Trade School.

The same can be said for Istarian crafting. If I am an accomplished Carpenter then working Fletching or another subcraft SHOULD be easier and quicker then if I had no knowledge whatsoever about wood....or metal...or essence...So therefore, calling it powerlevelling is a mistake.

One specializes in something to be better at a particular aspect of a trade/craft/skill. This specialization comes after you gain the basics whether it is as a Doctor or a Mechanic an Armorer or a Weaponsmith. The time taken to specialize is seldom greater then the time taken to gain the basic knowledge as you focus on fewer things.

At least that is the way I see it.

[LaughingOtter]

you will notice i did'nt leave out dragons in the mix of things in my first post.

there will have to be either a seperate xp ratio for dragon smelting skills to even the playing field or provide them with a quest oriented scale from a dragon trainer that will allow them to meet the skill to be optimum.

I did notice; I was just commenting on what would be involved with this proposal. The DCRA issue isn't insurmountable - just a good bit of development time.

[Senkeleron Fell]

You are using the knowledge gained to help you in another class with similar requirements. That to me is not powerlevelling but being efficient. For example, I started my career years ago as a Heavy Duty Mechanic by apprenticing and taking 4 years of tech school training. I then wrote my Automotive Mechanics ticket by working in the auto trade for 2 years and challenging the exam. I did not have to re-learn everything from the ground up as the two are quite similar and I did not have to spend another 4 years at Trade School.

The same can be said for Istarian crafting. If I am an accomplished Carpenter then working Fletching or another subcraft SHOULD be easier and quicker then if I had no knowledge whatsoever about wood....or metal...or essence...So therefore, calling it powerlevelling is a mistake.

One specializes in something to be better at a particular aspect of a trade/craft/skill. This specialization comes after you gain the basics whether it is as a Doctor or a Mechanic an Armorer or a Weaponsmith. The time taken to specialize is seldom greater then the time taken to gain the basic knowledge as you focus on fewer things.

At least that is the way I see it.

Oh I don't have a problem with it, I was just pointing out what people are calling powerleveling when it come to crafting, and that by that definition it is possible. I used my knowledge of Confectioner to powerlevel Tinker and Alchemist by making clay pots.

[Archebold]

Bori by raiseing the bar for processing the resources does not make itso that you cant make the final product as you already do. your skills for makeing the final product would remain the same.

its the processing of the ore/log/slab etc. that would be affected, only permiting you to be at optimum for the resource you are working with within your current school, until you reach the higher level required to meet the optimum skill level again.

I only presented this idea as Food for thought. in responce to the complaints for.

1) the ability to take a craft school from start to finish at a rapid rate, which disturbed the population that took the long hard road to get there, and watch others blow thru the levels.

2) the addition of a foriegn material to complete the process of mithril, which disturbed the population that have seen mithril in the stories and tales that point out that mithril is a metal of a special quality.

3) because it has taken over the channels ingame and created such heated discussion within the game that the normal functions of the channels are blocked out thus disrupting the game play of many that choose not to be involved with the inner workings of things.

4) because ive been asked repeatedly ingame what i thought of the whole idea, and got tired of repeating myself.


Food for thought is just that, something to think about. not an attack on any one person , nor skill , nor profession . just something to think about.

I have worked with and around the problems and changes within the game and i will continue to do so. whatever TG decides to do i will work with it or around it and still be a member of Istarian Society, I dont have a crystal ball that fortells the outcome of these changes nor will i be short sighted enough to call it quits when there is a transition going on that hinders any of my skills.

This is a work in progress, with a staff that used to be larger in numbers, that had there own tasks to keep working on this game that evolves as we evolve. The luxury of the larger staff has passed, the people that are the most passionate about Horizons are the very same people you are attacking, this is there life, there income there form of expression.

they now do the work of many, spread across a wider field and have less time to focus on any one aspect of there duties, so all areas suffer. they are working themselves into the hospital even to try to keep the player base and provide what is needed to attract new players and keep the devoted players that are still here and wish to remain.

My hat goes off to the staff that works so hard to please as many people as they can, that enjoy Horizons. I have the utmost respect for the ideas that are posted on the forums, for even the smallest of ideas can turn into a great feature within the scheme of things.

[Bori Grimbattle]

My apologies Archebold if it came off like I was attacking you. Everybody has a say in the matter. I was basically trying to point out that many are getting upset over what really amounts to nothing much at all and my views on the matter.

As to some taking the hard road and some a quicker route the main thing to remember here is nobody has been stopped from taking things a quicker way. With the proper planning one should be able to progress as efficiently as another. I do not expect Blacksmithing to help me with essence work nor do I expect weaving to help me with woodwork. However, sadly in some cases it does.

The main problem as I see it is experiance is awarded inthe base mining/gathering skills NOT for the actual mining or gathering but for the creation ofa finished first level product, eg. boards or bars. Take gathering for example.I levelled gatherer by using my 100 levels in carpentry and cutting Yew trees and then making boards. Yet now, I can use gathering to level any essence craft that I wish to. Why? Because I gained the points not for the actual gathering of Essence but for making boards.

If the base skills,Essence Harvesting, Mining,Logging, etc. were levelled by actually Harvesting Essence and not by making a product then it would make a lot more senseand also stop some of the "rapid" levelling that you see when one has the right base class.

Sorry if this sounds a bit fuzzy, on meds for major dental work and head is hurting but I hope you can understand what I am driving at. [:|]

[Senkeleron Fell]

Many of us would have prefered the system to be skill based instead of level based, where you only get exp for the actual skill being used at the moment, and maybe a bonus if that skill is taught by your craft school. So you would get skill in metalworking from making metal tools, and you would get skill in weaponsmithing from making metal weapons, and you would get skill in tailoring from making clothing. But we didn't end up with a system like that, so it has needed tweaking over time.

[Gold]

Amazing the amount of response here.. a hot issue indeed.

After wading thru this interesting thread, I would need more info to discuss it reasonably..

The initial post by Manga describes a change to the crafting system with no mention of its purpose, considerations or if to fix a problem. The changes implemented on Blight lead me to *assume* adjusting metal crafting to follow a more gradual difficulty. It would be nice to know the reasoning for the change and if to fix a problem, define the problem and the end goal.

This thread could be filled with much higher quality feedback and suggestions if that information was posted.. [:-*]

[Archebold]

Fuzzy or not glad to see your still around, you yourself have come up with some great ideas andthey arenow part of the scheme of things within Istarian life. no i did'nt think you were attacking nor do i take attacks personally even if that were the case.

I would say that i agree with you on the collecting of resources to gain experience rather then the processing of the materials for the base resources.A tickercounter per say for each amount of resource you collect to gain experience for the mining ,quarrying,gathering aspect of the trades. but that is a different matter all together and again changes the scheme of things we have become acustomed too.

theres a fine line to walk at TG, to please the population without being derailed from there own vision of how Horizons should progress. there will always be people upset when it changes there aspect of gameplay and thus what they enjoy to do within the game.

Ideas brought forth in these discussions are both good and bad. Good in regards to an item that may have been overlooked at the design level. bad in regards to a better idea than what was origanally planned, scraps the current project and starts all over to implement the new idea, which is both good and bad. but dont let the ideas stop flowing.

[Crazyfingers]

Waiste of time and effort, but at least it gives people something to talk about.
Next Manga should open a topic stating PvP. That should be worth 7 or 8 pages of posts.

Redo the loot tables and bring on the undead hordes!

NimKhazad

[Jayne]

I actually love when they (Dev's)get these discussions going. People are very emotional when it comes to change, so most are so preoccupied with what might happen that they aren't even out playing the game and having fun.

Keep there minds off the game.....Thats how I bought a DGWC today on the Aug consigner for 1S!

Thanks Dev's! Keep up the good work :)

Jayne

[Joaqim]

I don't think raising the smelting skill to 1200 would change very much, just get a teched gear and you're back to business. Most metal using schools hit 900 skill at lvl 100, that's way enough to hit current 1200. And at the multiclassing side it would just hurt low ADV crafters again, as they can't wear all the T5 stuff if they start over another craft.

Btw. my alt made lvl 80 Weaver as 1st craft (self gathered resources)in not even one week. Let's nerf fabrics too[:P]

[Death-knell]

Btw. my alt made lvl 80 Weaver as 1st craft (self gathered resources)in not even one week. Let's nerf fabrics too[img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]

This has been the point of quite a few people. It's pretty much easy to PL any crafter class, but people seemed to get fixated on one and ignore the rest until they've made that one class totally not fun to play anymore.

[Joaqim]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Joaqim wrote:
Btw. my alt made lvl 80 Weaver as 1st craft (self gathered resources)in not even one week. Let's nerf fabrics too[img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]

This has been the point of quite a few people. It's pretty much easy to PL any crafter class, but people seemed to get fixated on one and ignore the rest until they've made that one class totally not fun to play anymore.

I wouldn't call that PL, even as it was pretty fast. Everything was self gathered/craftet....
But used the game machnics at the max, full teched stuff all the time, as ADV 100 which I wasalready before,you can wear T5 JWL and also T5 non-cargo parts. Capacity is 3550 at lvl 1 Craft without wearing Cargo. T5 reaping potions can be used as well. And last but not least, my main char is lvl 100 Tailor, so I know where all the fabric stuff grows.
On the other hand you need to take care, that crafting for Newbies (and low ADV) doesn't become a major pain...

[Rainbow]

*Slaps Joa*...... Let's not nerf fabric too please......


Rainbow

[Tympest]

Time to toss in my 2 copper. :)

First, I have to say I am very against these changes to mithril and also the way steel & cobalt have been in the past. I see no logical reason why smelting metal should be any more complex than cutting stone, sawing wood, spinning cloth, cutting gems, etc. All the resources should be treated the same, unless there really is some need to pick on the metal crafters?

I have heard the argument that mithril is too easy, especially compared to something like ironsilk. This difficulty has nothing to do with how metal is smelted or cloth is spun. It has to do with the location of the resource fields, the proximity/amount/type of monsters, and the location of nearby plots/machines (or lack thereof). It's true that mithril is located right next to several player plots with machines while ironsilk is in the middle of nowhere guarded by monsters. A much better solution, in my opinion, is to move the resources/monsters/machines around to fix this imbalance rather than mucking with smelting. Move the mithril field further from the plots, decrease the amount of mithril nodes, add plots/machines closer to ironsilk, etc. Like others have suggested, take out the need to harvest two different things from all tiers of metal - change the nickel veins to nickel & iron veins and the cobalt to cobalt & steel? veins.

Now, I logged on my copied character to Blight to check out these metal changes.... The cobalt is not in a small patch like the Aug iron, but rather sprinkled in with the mithril. (The same with the nickel in the cobalt field near Kirasanct) It seemed to be one or two cobalt nodes, then a stretch of just mithril, then maybe another cobalt node. I would hazard a guess that cobalt makes up 10% - 15% of the nodes in the field, I don't think it'll be enough to prevent crafters from having to portal elsewhere to find enough. :(

Also, each of the different metal nodes look alike at a distance. Not only do you have to search for the cobalt nodes among the mithril, but you have to click on each and every node to see what it is. Here's an example of what I'm talking about. How easy is it to pick out the one cobalt node among the mithril. (Hint - it's the highlighted one) For a closer view, here's a cobalt node in mithril, a cobalt and a nickel node, and an iron and a nickel node. Please, if you're going to go through with this change make the nodes easier to distinguish from one another.

If you really must go through with this - then I'd prefer the 3:1 optimal smelting ratio to the alloying of mithril. :P

Heh, that was more than 2 copper... but there are my thoughts on the matter.

[Logikality]

I've gotta wonder though. Why is it that metal is being treated like this. no other resource is treated this way. Why does TG, and AE before, feel the need to make metal such a PITA to make? Wood, gems, fabric, stone, clay, essence... ALL a single resource per tier to have to work with. I truly do not understand this mentality with metal. Metal should be just as simplified as the other resources and should stop being treated like it needs to be made so hard!

Make Steel Bars only need 2 Nickel and Iron Ores (1 resources type, just change the bloody nodes name)

Make Cobalt Bars only need 2 Cobalt and Nickel Ores (1 resource type, just change the bloody nodes name)

Leave Mithril ALONE!

Jeesh, I just don't get it. Of course the above is my ultimate dream and won't come true but again, if we HAVE to be forced to use alloys from different tiers from T3-T5 (OMG WTF are the gonna do about Adamantium?!) then I think it should be done as Gusi suggested...

And yes Sslz, I saw the Tarbash nerf as well. :/


Next thing you know it's going to take an Elm Log and 2 Maple Logs to make 1 Maple Board, an Unspun Cotton and 2 Unspun Silks to make 1 Silk Spool, a Glowing Essence and 2 Bright Essence to make 1 Bright Essence Orb, a Granite Slab and 2 Marble Slabs to make 1 Marble Slab, etc etc etc. Makes PERFECT sense doesn't it. They are afterall too easy to refine/work with only needing a single tiered resource type.

I agree with Snowdonia about combining the resources. We already see it in tier 1 copper and tin ore, so why not in later tiers as well?

I also think we should have been envolved in this decision, instead of the privledged few that are on IRC, or in the decussion group.

[Pharcellus]

I also think we should have been envolved in this decision, instead of the privledged few that are on IRC, or in the decussion group.

If you are referring to the Focus Group, then have no worries there. It wasn't even mentioned there at all. What they did in this instance, they did solely on their own counsel.

I won't go into the issues with IRC.