Common Sense and Common Decency

[Aamer Khan]

Actually I'm not telling anyone to like it or lump it. But I do ask, is harping on things that have not been put in yet, for what ever reasons, mature conduct?

Cheering the fine efforts made by the devs does help. It helps newer players to realize that despite its problems, things are improving. This in turn, helps them want to stay. Then when they come to the various channels ingame that are there to assist them, they see just how fine and helpful a community we really have.

A year ago you may have been right in pointing out the glaring flaws. But now, the situation has changed. There are many things that simply cannot be done anytime soon. You can rail against this, fight it in the name of "supporting the game" and you can drive off the few newer players that come here. Or, you can realize that you may not get what you want, as fast as you want, and that the game may not bend to your will.

I'm not an investor, I'm just a sub paying player just like everyone else. I won't petend that my opinion has any effect on the business end of the processes at TG. All I know, is what you know. and from my own experiences, I know that, like with any relationship between real people, that calm questions, without demand, will get far more of a positive response, than what we see on the boards today.

[LexDivinia]

I don't like the thought of playing a game where "like it or lump it" are my only options, but if the negativity towards the devs continues as it is now, I am afraid that is how it will end up. They can not be expected to be there for us to talk to if they can not be spoken to with civility.

[BKBanzai]

I think it is not devs that get spoken to "uncivilly". At least not that I've ever noticed.

Should anyone that is paid to do a job be held accountable for doing that job well/right?

I think in ANY company that is the case....well, I take that back, where I work, sadly, almost no one is held accountable :<

Do I think they try very hard?

Absolutely!

Do I think they do a good job? Well, I give them an "A+" for effort.

I think what so many of us struggle to understand is how do the same problems wind up coming back over and over and over again?

5 patches later, trade crashing gets fixed. Then new patch, trade crashing back. Then wait 2 patches for it to get fixed. Then, this patch today, trade crashing back. I don't get it, how does this happen?!

Anyway, I digress.

I see not so much dev bashing, but player bashing, usually fanboi versus pissed off person that's going through hell trying to play a game he/she loves.

And usually the pissed off person (or disillusioned) gets more pissed off because the fanbois do nothing but argue how hard the devs are trying and how short staffed or how they have no problems, so lay off the nice devs and the nice David Bowman that chats them up in IRC....

Gives some 16 year old a heady sense of power to be "in" with the programming team. You wind up with some very rabid followers, that result in very rabid performance-expecting/demanding individuals.

Let the devs and Mr. David Bowman fight their own battles and do their own PR and their own accountability.

I think there would be a lot more civility and respect given/garnered then.

[Gordok]

When you ask a question in a chat channel and get no answer at all how does that make you feel? What if you ask it 3 days in a row and get no answer how do you feel then? What if someone had just answered sry but I dont know that answer but mabey try this, or even just an I dont know. Does'nt that make you feel alot better than no reply at all?

I dont think 20 minutes a day from each dev to post even something as simple as I know it's broken and I'm sry but I dont have a timeline for a fix for you yet. Or a hey great idea! We dont have the resources atm to put it into the game but we'll write it down for future development. Those are ofcourse all worst case scenerio answers but being realistic every answer cant be next week.

Personally I think that would go a long ways to easing the current frustrations. But hey what do I know I tried for nearly a month to get some simple help for new players and never recieved a single dev response(the kind of token fix not withstanding) I even resorted to begging so am I jaded? Yes I am but it does'nt change how I am ingame, I still greet and help new players as if nothing happened with the knowledge that it could be alot easier with a little help.

[Rainbow]

BKBanzai, I think that you have given a fair appraisal of the goings on here on this games board, and I would add that, in my opinion,even the "bashings" of other players is not tothe extreme that the original poster stated.

I personally believe that this board is a walk in the park in comparison to some games boards, and I would hazard a guess that those most offended here by what they percieve as "bashing" or lack ofcommon decencyare those folks whohave perhaps a very sensitive nature in real life.

I feel sure that you remember, Peaches, the numerous times that you posted on the UO offical boards, requesting that other posters stopped "bashing" you. In all honesty, how many times have you needed to post that request here? In fairness to the posters here, theydo not generally behave like a lynch mob to either the staff working on the game nor to other posters using the boards.

I especially agree about BK's statement regarding those that believe that they are "in" with the team that work on Horizons. In my opinion there is a fine balance between maintaining good but professional relations with your customers and over familiarity. On ocassions there have been comments made here on the forums and in game that makes me wonder if this game has maybe stepped over that line; comments more along the lines that would be made if somebody was talking about their mates at the pub or work colleagues rather than about those providing a paid for service to them.I am sure that the people working for Horizons are big boys and girls now and are quite able to deal with anything that they perceive as over the toplack of common decencyin their own way.

The other side of common sense and common decency is about the way posts are recived by those players who are moderating the boards too. You are moderating equals, notpeople lesser in importance than yourself. With that in mind, there should be an absoloute level playing field for all when you apply "your rules of posting". I sometimes feel that there is a leaning towards favourtism which in turn can foster resentment amongst those using these boards and observing it. There is no need for me to give examples asevidence of my statement,as I believe that if we are all responding in this thread with honesty and without a private agenda, we can identify such acts.

I wonder, with so many people posting, so many backgrounds, so many learned values, so many approaches to life, if it ispossible to ever have a set of rules for posting that would not offend somebody.Those of us not volunteering to moderate the forums also do not know what expectations have been placed upon Peaches et al by Mr Bowman for their moderating of the boards. This might have a huge impact on the way the moderators actually moderate.

One final little point. Some are anxious that new players come and read for themselves the "negativity" portrayed by some posters.I would suggest to you people that you give more credit to potential new players in that they can actually make their own minds up based upon their own experience of the game itself.

Rainbow

[Vahrokh]

One day I urge to read a single, any page of any MMORPG game forum.

I think that 95% of the posts over there would be moved to rants or downright blocked.
The hot topic in WoW i.e. is how in Europe they have almost daily mass crashes and unbearable lag and you should see the tone of the average posts.

Still million players play those games, there is not a real correlation between talking bad of the game and revenues. Why? Because the game per se is extremely good and people are ready to "endure" problems.

If Horizons cannot stand a bit of criticism without having direct economical consequences it's not a good sign, it means that people don't think they'll want to "endure" problems for such a game as they do with others.

[Pharcellus]

And I think the counter point that is being made is that TG does indeed know what has made folks get mad and leave the game, and is currently working hard to correct that.

Yeah, I think they know SOME of those kinds of things, but I don't think they UNDERSTAND a significant number of them, as they keep making the same kinds of mistakes over and over again.

What get discouraging to regular posters and the developers themselves, is the relentless harping on issues already known, as if saying the words over and over will get them to fixed faster.

What causes the relentless harping of issues already known? LITTLE TO NO ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of the "issues", and NO REGULAR STATUS UPDATES on the vast majority of the few that were. Most of the repeated posting about the same issue is due to the company's continued lousy communication policies and ivory towerism. "But it is so much better now!" Yeah, in the same way that going from 5% to 10% of capacity utilization is to saying "they've doubled their efforts"! News flash: 10% still sucks, too.

And what if they have decided to switch gears, and after realizing they cannot do some of what they promised, open state that because of ( the various stated posts they have made about the deficencies of the renderer, simulator, and client ) that they have no plans to implement the "promised" thing... what then?

Then they need to take the time to explain, in detail, why, and not just "we just can't do that". Helping someone understand why you cannot do something is much preferable to just telling them you can't and ignoring the matter afterwards.

Lets use Frid as a prime example of someone putting their money where their mouth is. He would post here about various problems, offer solutions, and even better, has now gone to work for TG as an intern to help SOLVE some of the graphics issues... You like the new look of the water?

Fridlekh is absolutely amazing in a lot of the stuff he has done now and in the past. However, he needs to leave certain levels of PR to those who have more experience. It's just not his bag.

You can bash or you can offer constructive comments on HOW to solve the problem.

When the constructive comments have been offerred numerous times and either ignored, or rejected out-of-hand with no explanation, and the issues continue to make players miserable and angry, what do you expect? How about the standard answer that some people give? "Quit if you don't like it!!" Yeah, if everyone who has come to the forums to vent just pressed the ol' cancel button and high-tailed it outta here instead, I don't think we'd be having this pleasant conversation now.

[Tryagain]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Leviathan wrote:


It would be a better analogy if it weren't off-topic. Tokoz was writing about common sense, not ARoP.

His analogy was actually very apt, I thought; just because no harm comes of an unacceptable act, that doesn't mean it isn't unacceptable or that you should keep doing it.

if we were dealing with common sense this thread would not be about Horizons.

[Tryagain]

Ok, lets use a bit o' common sense here and look at that idea of being short staffed.

A few things to add though first. Like the fact that those working on the game now, inherited it from an entirely different set of developers, that not only were short sighted, but because of pressure from atari to release the game, they didn't even finish all the schools, or have all the art assets available when the game went live. Lets also add the stress from EVERYONE wanting something different from the rest of the players.

Strange Aamer talk to Atari... they say all they ever were was the publisher. Their brand tag was used for distribution channels only. They did not have any responsibility nor did they put any pressure on AE or Bowman to release the game early. This is a fact that is wrong and has been allowed to flourish for some time. No the decision to release before it was ready was purely one of we need to get this game out for christmas 2003 and cash in on the under the tree present sales. AE was out of development money plain and simple. Then what is there now is the SAME company management wise with most other people involved in it having been LAID off. Vastly different than saying the people that are running it now inherited the problems from a previous company.

So lets not bash those that do work hard but they also shouldn't get that big banana sundae just yet. But at the same time lets not propagate rumors that just aren't true either.

[kalorum]

I am new here, but have a good deal of experience with MMO games and forums. It seems to me folks here are more decent and respectful towards each other than folks on other MMO forums.

I agree very much with the idea that it is not "What you say" as much as it is "How you say it". That can change a rant that will be entirely ignored into a post that will be read by many.

I also want to say something about how developers spend their time, adding new content vs fixing bugs (something I see alot about in these forums)...

As a potential newplayer (paying customer), the game looks great, but in trying to play the game I have experienced bugs, lag, crashes, character textures that get messed up, and lots of frustration. No amount of new content will bring me closer to paying for this game, only fixed existing problems. I will check it out again in a few months and see if I can have a better experience.

At least the devs in this MMO are listening to and seeking player input,and actually fixing existing problems. I am looking foward to playing it when they have improved things a bit. I hope this player community continues to be a positive influence on the devs and game.

[Aamer Khan]

Thanks Kalorum for understanding the intent of this thread [:D]

[imported_Leannae]

I think at this point, the ball is in TG's court.

Being aware that the average player is 34 years old (taken from an interview with DB) They should also be aware that a good percentage of those people work and can only grab a peek at the forums during off hours when it's not busy. I don't know about the rest of you, but I know I surely can't sit in IRC all day while at work.

This is where they need to put someone back into a PR position and post on the forums.

They have 27 employees (give or take) if each one spent 1 hour a day in rotation, posting on the forums,they'd have the lines of communication open 27 out of 30 days a month.

[Gordok]

I've posted something similar to this before and allthough not well recived at the time mabey it can be tweaked to address some of the issues brought up. I really think once a bug or a great idea that has been aknowledged as a future asset is made it should be stickied somewhere untill it's fixed and or ingame. You could add a 2 new forum sections titled something like known problems and ideas for the future or something like that. That way every few months someone thinking they have a great idea posts it only to have someone else post a link to the 2 or 3 other times it was allready mentioned would'nt happen any more.

First for the problems atleast there would allways be a place to go see what they are instead of finding them out the hard way and second for people with ideas that make it live how encouraging would it be to have your post moved into a new area and know you made a difference. This ofcourse would only work if the main concern of the amount of dev time spent on these boards was a focus first.

Take a look at the past suggestions sometime and you'll notice the same name numerous times for mabey at most a week before they stop posting as none of their ideas good or bad ever recieved a response. Minus a few exceptions these players either just give up trying to better the game here or leave the game alltogether. Is'nt that reason enough in itself to make this a priority? 20 minutes a day per dev to save how many accounts being canceled and bad P.R. Does'nt seem like much to ask for to me.

For me other than mabey this thread meaning something important have joined the group of people that have given up posting ideas.

[Seranthor]

Ever go to a doc's office for an appointment set for 10:00 and for some reason, your still there an hour later and haven't seen the doc yet? Oh ya, they had several *emergenices*, not which could be disrpoved or proved, ya take their word for it. So, you say, I will reschedule, and the same thing happens? It does happen more often than you may realize, what will you do then?


Bash and insult the doc? Go find another one? Afterall, it is your money that is going to the doc, whether it be from copayment or insurance.

how many 'emergencies' occur before you give up and go to the ER or to another doctor though Peaches?

[Peaches]

Actually Seranthor, ER visit costs me 100 bucks. Walkin clinic costs me 50 bucks. Normal doc costs me 25 bucks. I chose the very last one, even if I have to end up waiting an insane amount of time.

[imported_Leannae]

Here in Alberta, Canada,health careis government funded so emergency, doctors office, walk in Clinic all cost the same... $0.00 bucks. Makes no difference if it's a check-up or major surgery. Because of that, lines are the same in all places along with the wait. Main reason I avoid going to the doctors unless I absolutely have to.

[Pharcellus]

From my own experience in customer service it is hard to create "rapport" with people who are dead set on believing you are not giving them what they deserve and no matter what is said, it is going to be held against them.

From my own experience as Community Manager in another online game, it was a difficult job, but eminently rewarding to go out and talk WITH the players all the time about the game, as well as PLAY it with them, having them SHOW me the problems and issues, if I didn't experience them myself.

We had a wonderful community of players. I had a GREAT staff, some of whom are with me in new ventures today. Yes, we had our trolls, bad eggs, and general miscreants and rabblerousers, but we still TALKED to each and every one of them as often as we could. Some of them could not be made happy no matter what we said/did, and I would often tell them "Look, this might not be the game for you. If you are not having fun, try taking a break from it, or try something new for a while and come back when/if you feel homesick".

The point is that the staff and the developers were active in the forums, telling the players what they were doing, asking for input from them, and answering questions and complaints on a daily basis. We had established regular updates to what was going on, and held regular meetings, both public and private. We didn't just pay lip service to the motto "we care about you", we went through the motions to prove it. As a result, we had one of the most loyal and supportitve playerbases around.

It is obvious that the people that are vocal about the game care deeply for its future... but let's keep in mind that not only are the people creating, maintaining, and fixing the game (and even admit to how it got broke being their fault at times) are more than adults, and more than "businessmen"... they are people. Human beings. With emotions.

As I have discovered, that treatment has to come from the staff and the developers FIRST. Caring begets caring. Hiding behind a corporate veil, living in an ivory tower, and only sending out the bumbling scribe/herald once in a blue moon to send the King's decrees unto the populace doesn't endear anyone to their "humanity", because they are not viewing their subjects (ie, customers) as people.

In recent times, it has become easier to crack the cold, impersonal shell of this organization, and get to know the people inside, as people. Once in a while we get to see the turtle poke its head out and speak. Trouble is, most of the time it is only talking to us, not with us, and it retreats quickly back into its shell when it is done speaking.

I don't know what solution would work best for this organization, but I think that an empowered Community Manager would go a long ways towards resolving this long-standing and critically disabling weakness in this organization. Not just another mouthpiece, but someone with some chutzpah and cojones to get the job done and give the players significantly less reason to be angry all the time.

[Crazyfingers]

Anyone know Dozers email? I think he would be perfect for the Community Manager position.

NimKhazad

[Rainbow]

Haha, now that made me titter, Crazyfingers....


Rainbow