Ancient Ascension Video and Feeling about the ARoP

[Solitaire]

We're still waiting for the Primal equivalent of Gold Rage Manga promised nearly 1 year ago.

That should be arriving soon. I was one who was given Gold Burst on Blight to test and I think it was a wee bit too powerful in that implimentation. Fast cast, fast recycle, high damage. Was quite overpowering and I was able to knock down some of the toughest T6 mobs using an old copy, still adult, without adequate scales and without using a heal. Burned about 20k hoard in the process in about an hour of attacking any solo mob that moved. I do got to admit, though... It was fun![:)]

[Theolaerynn]

Dragon spells work fine against weaker or lower level mobs. But try taking on a boss like Surtheim or even Mhedon using just your dragon spells. Its not an option if you want to survive the fight.

Perhaps I do not understand you definition of the term 'spell', but I use them extensively against Mhedon, the named Emerald Golem (Velos? Just woke up, can't recall), and pretty much everything else I fight.

I am not talking Prime Bolt, but I am talking about the rest of the spells, especially AE. But then I am geared for heavy defense so my melee output is lower than a Strength specialist. On the other hand, I can mitigate a lot more damage too (if you consider Evasion a form of mitigation).

Different playing styles and all, right?

[Pharcellus]

the new primal rage - or whatever it is called will bring Primal based dragons more into line with the TC oriented Gold Rage ..

Not likely. I don't see how having one single hoard burning single-target ranged attack ability which has OK damage and an uber-fast recycle is going to help SPELL-casting Dragons all that much. Sure, we can spam that ability against all the mobs, but that isn't really SPELL-casting, now is it?

My point is that we are now capable of doing things with spells that we could never do before.

..and what, pray tell, would that be? How has becoming Ancient altered the way we use SPELLS? Their damage has increased negligibly, if at all. They cast and recycle just about the same (once the crystal can be socketed and has the 10% recycle bonus). What else has changed about them? What "new things" can we do with them now that we could "never do before"?

Whilst I don't know how many levels at 100 a biped needs to take on 10 Fire Opal gols or8 Winter Werewolves stunning the bejeebers out of you at the same time, and come out the other side .. that is what I was doing last night.

Depending on the classes taken, of course, 2? 3?

Anyone who wanted AROP to give them one million strength or HPs is being unrealistic.

I'm glad that nobody on the planet was being unrealistic, then. [8-)]

I was initially unhappy with TGs offering - with 2 modifications due to people's protests we got more. What we have now got IMO makes us pretty ******** strong for a L100.

Oh, definitely. Problem is that quite a few of us are much, much more than mere L100s in effort expended.

Should a L100 dragon with ten billion xp over L100 be as strong as a multi 100 biped - yes probably. But the point is that since at this stage there is no distinction between the ancient who arrived 101 days ago and the one who has been playing for 2 years, it is unrealistic to expect to have godlike abilities.

First, at the risk of sounding pedantic, no one expected to have "godlike abilities". Second, the situation with 101-day old Ancients being equivalent to 701-day-old Ancients is a design weakness, and one that could have been dealt with much better by simply having more stringent requirements for ARoP that were begged for even before the first pass at them had been posted. Lack of reward for effort kills player enthusiasm, not only for biped players, but ESPECIALLY for Dragon players.

Personally I'm pretty happy with what we got out of the quests, and the more I experiment with the new abilities and learn how to use them better and what they are capable of - the better fighter I become.

Personally, I am "happy" we got something out of it at all. I wasn't expecting anything significant. However, that doesn't change the fact that we are still lacking in key areas. As a Helian, I was hoping for SOMEthing that would make Spellcasting less abyssmal. Denied that, I am soaking myself up as much T&C as I can muster, and ditching Primal, for the most part. I'll just pretend I am Lunus, even with the missing T&C bonuses.

Not only this, but if I can getstackable Fangs and if I get my hands on a misty topaz or something, new scales with power for the flame burst, a new blighted headscale with cool properties - I'll chew through the opposition. At L100.

Well, be sure to hit the T5 blight spawns on the Satyr Islands and pull a couple dozen for good measure to "chew" through. Better take a pocket Healer with you to be safe, though.

[Pharcellus]

Primal Vengeance doesn't go off on spells, exactly.

What happens is that, even when you are attacking with spells, you still get in an automatic regular melee strike now and then when the mob gets in range, THEN Vengeance goes off on them.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

The conversion of the scale to a crystal really doesn't cost us anything except a few T&C/Primal, which we'll get back with ancient dragon schools anyway.

You get that from what? Where has anything said officially that this will happen (schools yet, what bonsues we get if any? nowhere).

Stats? Schools again.

Oh really? Where is it saying that?

I'd be careful with these lovely assumptions. I mean the dragon population assumed they'd be the Ancient Size that was live for a year or more...look what happened.

Resurrection... again, you're assuming we won't get better in the Dragon Healer class.

And you're assuming we willget a dragon healer class - which, again, may be 1-5 years in the future.

Till then we're to make do with a rez that only recycles once every hour. Useful in the hope that more than half your party remembers to flee to live so they can rez the half that died, or of course - most useful to rez the biped healer. Am I the only one who sees anything wrong in that last part of that statement? [:|]

And keeping in mind that abilities only go UP In hoarde price as the Roman Numeral increases.

So..we'll get a 6500 hoarde cost Rez ability that recycles every 45 minutes in version II?

OH JOY I CAN'T WAIT! /sarcasm off

What happens is that, even when you are attacking with spells, you still get in an automatic regular melee strike now and then when the mob gets in range, THEN Vengeance goes off on them.

Unless you are spam spellcasting and forget to hit that autoattack button to slice in between ;).

[Tympest]

I was pretty sure I've seen primal vengeance fire off from spells. Guess it's time to run a test and find out for sure.

[ktrones]

I agree with most being said in here. But the { HV = C } is getting way closer to 2:1 as bipeds realize how much we need and its getting worse. On the average we are burning more hoard per fight then we get back. Never mind what we lose in the rift helping Adults finish, I lost 500k just helping. And I know somebodys gonna say but look at the coin you made helping out, once again use the 2:1 ratio that seems we are getting close to with HV/S. And Ancients coming of age without new lvls to work on I put mine back in mothballs for the most part and useing a biped to lvl and farm hoard for my Ancient, its sad that its come to this but when you burn more then get back you need to do something different. I'm only at 8.2 mil in hv which is nowhere opt. And to craft the other 15 mil you might as well stick a fork in me as I will be done. Alot of Ancients have bipeds for the lack of Dragons having anything to do. KK enough said, its more then I've sain in 12 months. Nodaken

[oluviel]

I was pretty sure I've seen primal vengeance fire off from spells. Guess it's time to run a test and find out for sure.

i don't use the bolt but it does go off with our ae spells every so often. Not a life saver but it helps to cripple some npcs in a giant pull.... for twenty seconds anyway.

How about ancient primal vengeance? "wink wink"

10% chance to hit 30 sec duration :)

[Dragoniade]

Not quite. From what I heard from Blight shard the version of Primal Burst being tested does about 500 damage and is on a 3 second timer. Its basically a powerful single-target bolt spell. But it alone is not going to put you on par with a melee dragon for taking out bosses. The reason is simple: There's one key thing that lets a dragon take on some of the toughest bosses in the game and survive victorious: primal vengeance. No matter how strong the helian equivalent of gold rage is, since its not a melee attack it won't trigger primal vengeance. No primal vengeance in fight against Surtheim or Umyarr = dead dragon.

500 damage on a 3 second timer? Hmm. On what target did you try those? I do between 300-400 damages per bolt every 4.5 second (about 3 or so with alacrity on). Unless I'm missing some detail on that ability, that's only 100 increases. Did you try it on level 110-120 monsters? How much hoard does it consume?

And yes, primal vengeance SUCKS with Helians dragons. It is triggered on single attack. The more you do, the higher the chance of triggering it. A typical Lunus dragon will strike every 2 seconds or so, have 3 bonus with claw swipe, idem with Gold Rage and Silver Strike.
With spells, it's too slow to hope triggering anything, the casting sometime being 3 time slower. In 10 seconds, a Lunus will have occassion to trigger it, while an Helians only 2. Not really fair if you ask me. If they want to balance things out, they should do 2 triggers, the spells one having twice the probability of hitting over the mellee one.

[Dragoniade]

I agree with most being said in here. But the { HV = C } is getting way closer to 2:1 as bipeds realize how much we need and its getting worse. On the average we are burning more hoard per fight then we get back. Never mind what we lose in the rift helping Adults finish, I lost 500k just helping. And I know somebodys gonna say but look at the coin you made helping out, once again use the 2:1 ratio that seems we are getting close to with HV/S. And Ancients coming of age without new lvls to work on I put mine back in mothballs for the most part and useing a biped to lvl and farm hoard for my Ancient, its sad that its come to this but when you burn more then get back you need to do something different. I'm only at 8.2 mil in hv which is nowhere opt. And to craft the other 15 mil you might as well stick a fork in me as I will be done. Alot of Ancients have bipeds for the lack of Dragons having anything to do. KK enough said, its more then I've sain in 12 months. Nodaken

I just wish we could return to the ancient to fight those guardians again without the need of a ascending Adult ;)

[Dragoniade]

I was pretty sure I've seen primal vengeance fire off from spells. Guess it's time to run a test and find out for sure.

It does. But with spells being way slower than mellee and having the same chance per hit, you won't get it to trigger much often. The only way to see it trigger effectively is to try casting Barrage or Gust when being attacked by 10 monsters or so and hope at least 1-2 triggers.

[PJ]

And keeping in mind that abilities only go UP In hoarde price as the Roman Numeral increases.

So..we'll get a 6500 hoarde cost Rez ability that recycles every 45 minutes in version II?

Lets see, considering there are only7 abilities which use hoard: Gold Rage, Silver Strike, Shield of Gold, Primal Rebirth, Drain Strike XIII, Flame Burst, Dragon Fear. And only 2 of those have hoard costs at more then 1 tier. Gold Rage and Silverstrike. 1 of those has a hoard cost which increases with each tier, Gold Rage. And one of those has a hoard cost which remains the same with each tier. Its not outside the realm of possibility that the hoard cost will decrease, or remain the same.

Seems a mighty big assumption to assume that costs will increase.

I'd be careful with these lovely assumptions.

Amen

[Dragoniade]

Lets see, considering there are only7 abilities which use hoard: Gold Rage, Silver Strike, Shield of Gold, Primal Rebirth, Drain Strike XIII, Flame Burst, Dragon Fear. And only 2 of those have hoard costs at more then 1 tier. Gold Rage and Silverstrike. 1 of those has a hoard cost which increases with each tier, Gold Rage. And one of those has a hoard cost which remains the same with each tier. Its not outside the realm of possibility that the hoard cost will decrease, or remain the same.
Amen

And out of those 7 abilities, only 2 have more than 1 tier: Gold Rage and Silverstrike. It's not outside the realm of possibility that the abilities will keep static. And as far I I know, Silver Strike increased as it tier increased, even thouth a lot slower than Gold Rage.

[Pharcellus]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Tympest wrote:I was pretty sure I've seen primal vengeance fire off from spells. Guess it's time to run a test and find out for sure.


It does. But with spells being way slower than mellee and having the same chance per hit, you won't get it to trigger much often. The only way to see it trigger effectively is to try casting Barrage or Gust when being attacked by 10 monsters or so and hope at least 1-2 triggers.

No, it doesn't.

Just verified it again. Go into a lowbie golem spawn, and ONLY cast spells. Bolt, Blast, Barrage, Tempest, Gust, it doesn't matter. It will NEVER proc.

HOWEVER, if you also hit the (A)ttack key, it will proc because you get melee attacks in when the enemies are in melee range, as well as casting spells. I was getting the occasional melee attack in even when just casting spells, for some odd reason, but PV never procced. I cleared the entire Amethyst golem spawn just outside Bristugo, from one end to the other. Only when I (A)ttacked and the mobs came within melee range did it start proccing.

Thus, that means if you are casting spells in a group where someone else has aggro outside your aggro range, it won't proc, even if you are in melee (A)ttack mode.

[Dragoniade]

No, it doesn't.

Just verified it again. Go into a lowbie golem spawn, and ONLY cast spells. Bolt, Blast, Barrage, Tempest, Gust, it doesn't matter. It will NEVER proc.

HOWEVER, if you also hit the (A)ttack key, it will proc because you get melee attacks in when the enemies are in melee range, as well as casting spells. I was getting the occasional melee attack in even when just casting spells, for some odd reason, but PV never procced. I cleared the entire Amethyst golem spawn just outside Bristugo, from one end to the other. Only when I (A)ttacked and the mobs came within melee range did it start proccing.

Thus, that means if you are casting spells in a group where someone else has aggro outside your aggro range, it won't proc, even if you are in melee (A)ttack mode.

Here the log of a battle I had yesterday in the Rift:

[10/03/05 22:21:08] You hit Rift Wraith with Gold Rage VII for 534 damage. [10/03/05 22:21:08] You hit Rift Wraith with Gold Rage VII for 474 damage. [10/03/05 22:21:08] You hit Rift Wraith with Gold Rage VII for 533 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:08] You hit Rift Wraith with Primal Vengeance. [10/03/05 22:21:08] You hit Rift Wraith with Primal Vengeance.
[10/03/05 22:21:11] You hit Rift Wraith with Silver Strike X for 195 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:11] You hit Rift Wraith with Silver Strike X for 251 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:13] Rift Wraith uses Battle Order: Unholy Alliance VI.
[10/03/05 22:21:14] You hit Rift Wraith with Breath of Fire for 135 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:16] Rift Wraith hits you with Piercing Blight XII for 278 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:17] Your Tail Whip misses Rift Wraith.
[10/03/05 22:21:20] You begin casting Barrage V on yourself.
[10/03/05 22:21:20] Rift Wraith hits you with Seeping Blight XI for 73 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:20] Rift Wraith hits you with Seeping Blight XI for 444 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:20] You hit Rift Wraith with for 180 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:21] You begin casting Gust V on yourself.
[10/03/05 22:21:21] You cast Barrage V on yourself.
[10/03/05 22:21:21] You hit Rift Wraith with Primal Vengeance.
[10/03/05 22:21:23] You hit Rift Wraith with for 208 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:25] Rift Wraith hits you with Soul Anchor XIII for 421 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:25] You cast Gust V on yourself.
[10/03/05 22:21:26] Rift Wraith hits you with Seeping Blight XI for 73 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:27] You hit Rift Wraith for 84 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:29] Refreshing Breeze V has faded.
[10/03/05 22:21:29] Rift Wraith hits you with Blighted Atrophy XI for 272 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:30] You hit Rift Wraith for 83 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:32] Rift Wraith hits you with Seeping Blight XI for 72 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:34] You missed Rift Wraith.
[10/03/05 22:21:35] You begin casting Quick Breeze V of Purifying on yourself.
[10/03/05 22:21:36] Rift Distortion has faded.
[10/03/05 22:21:38] Rift Wraith hits you with Seeping Blight XI for 72 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:40] You cast Quick Breeze V of Purifying on yourself.
[10/03/05 22:21:41] Rift Wraith uses Incorporal Shift.
[10/03/05 22:21:43] Your Silver Strike X misses Rift Wraith.
[10/03/05 22:21:43] Your Silver Strike X misses Rift Wraith.
[10/03/05 22:21:43] Rift Wraith hits you with Seeping Blight XI for 73 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:45] You hit Rift Wraith with Gold Rage VII for 518 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:45] You hit Rift Wraith with Gold Rage VII for 528 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:45] Your Gold Rage VII misses Rift Wraith.
[10/03/05 22:21:50] You begin casting Keen Improved Prime Bolt V of Accuracy at Rift Wraith.
[10/03/05 22:21:50] Rift Wraith hits you with Seeping Blight XI for 72 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:51] Rift Wraith hits you with Enervating Morbidae XI for 654 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:55] You begin casting Keen Improved Prime Bolt V of Accuracy at Rift Wraith.
[10/03/05 22:21:55] Gained Dragon experience: 19070
[10/03/05 22:21:56] Rift Wraith hits you with Seeping Blight XI for 72 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:57] You hit Rift Wraith with Keen Improved Prime Bolt V of Accuracy for 299 damage.
[10/03/05 22:21:57] Rift Wraith has been killed.

The first 2 Primal Vengeance were triggered by the Gold Rage. Lucky, but useless since it don't stack. The second was triggered by the casting of Barrage V. That one was a lot lucky than the other attack too, since it don'T get trigger anytime after, and spells only got it once.

[PJ]

Proc's do not necessarily occur after the attack thatwas used.

[Pharcellus]

Procs occur before the attacks, Dragoniade.

TRY JUST CASTING SPELLS.

Do NOT (A)ttack.

Don't Rage, Silver Strike, or even use ability debuffs. Just cast Bolt, Blast, Tempest, Barrage, and Gust.

If you can get it to proc, you're having a lot more luck than I am.

[Pharcellus]

I want to update the above:

Vengeance sometimes DOES proc during these spell attacks, but there is something else that is actually triggering it.

When you cast Gust/Barrage against, say, 3 targets, you sometimes get anywhere from 3-6 separate attacks. 3 of them are normal spell damage (or misses/dodges), but the other 0-3 are less than half damage. Only when those extra attacks show up will PV have a chance at proccing. It never procs if only the base spell damage attacks show up without the extra attacks.

So, yes, you can get Gust/Barrage to trigger PV, but it is ancillary to spellcasting. No other spells seem to trigger it, though I occasionally see an extra damage attack using Bolt/Tempest/Blast as well; however it has yet to proc PV.

Now, if you (A)ttack, you can get PV to go off regularly, even while casting spells, but only if you are in melee range.

The upshot is that normal spellcasting activities have a far lower percentage chance of proccing PV than melee activities. That's no surprise, as the tech was intended to work with melee attacks. It's just part and parcel of the overall discrepancy between T&C melee and Primal spellcasting.

[Tympest]

Ok, Maltavorn and I ran some tests with PV and spells. Basically ignore Malt's post above, it's not quite correct. The results are:

1) Only Gust and Barrage seem to proc PV. We could not get it to proc on Blast, Tempest, or Bolts.

When you cast Gust/Barrage against, say, 3 targets, you sometimes get anywhere from 3-6 separate attacks. 3 of them are normal spell damage (or misses/dodges), but the other 0-3 are less than half damage. Only when those extra attacks show up will PV have a chance at proccing. It never procs if only the base spell damage attacks show up without the extra attacks.

These extra attacks are extra damage techs triggering, things like crit/gale/romp/etc. That said:

2) PV can proc on unteched spells. It seems that PV likes to proc at the same time extra damage techs are triggered but I chalk that up to the not-quite-so-random number generator.

[Mirsathia]

2) PV can proc on unteched spells. It seems that PV likes to proc at the same time extra damage techs are triggered but I chalk that up to the not-quite-so-random number generator.

Having only unteched spells at the moment, yes, I can confirm this - PV can and does go off regularly on unteched spells. ;)

~Mirsathia