Class Balance?

[Crazyfingers]

Minor Tweaks-

Multicast and other Arcane spells/abilities only for Arcane schools.

Spirit and blight spells/abilities only for Spirit based schools.

Nature spells/abilities only for Nature schools.

Healer/Cleric/monk(support classes)
Healer-Nature magic and mellee tranfer butNOT Arcane and spirit/blight
Cleric-Arcane magic and mellee tranferable NOT spirit/blight and Nature
Monk-Spirit/blight transfer Not Nature and Arcane

Place Reaver or Guardian under either Spirit/Blight or Nature. NOT BOTH

Pure mellee are pure mellee

Archers are fine.

Dragons are overpowered but let them be. Its about time they got to have some fun and bragging rights. Plus they have to burn hoard.

Let exp over level 100 be turned in for more Training points.

Class based Crystals and loot.

Redo the loot tables


Healers/Druids/Clerics/Reavers/Guardians are the OVERPOWERED CLASSES!! They are the SHELL that allows multiclassers to become OVERPOWERED. Fix the shell and alls good.

Go back and finish classes, especially the Arcanes, Spearman, Monk and a few others. Enhance a few other classes abilities.

Then bring on the Undead Hordes!

Thats my BALANCE THE CLASSES suggestion. Didnt want to be accused of raising heck without giving a suggested solution.

NimKhazad

[Crazyfingers]

Forgot one- No more cast tier II, cast tier III, cast tier IV, cast tier V of the same spell.

NimK

[imported_tjl]

Healers/Druids/Clerics/Reavers/Guardians are the OVERPOWERED CLASSES!! They are the SHELL that allows multiclassers to become OVERPOWERED. Fix the shell and alls good.

actually, i think if you get enough of the base classes you can overpower, as you define it. scout, warrior, mage, druid, spiritst, monk, and cleric. take them all, or a good portion of them, and you have maxed quite a few important stats, and picked up some nice spells and abilites, and can then easily work on the prestige classes for even more goodies.

the priestly build is just more popular because it is more versitile, and overall works better in the world of istaria right now.

these are my opinions though.

[evilkarl]

I agree on the removal of chain casting tiers that is a definate MUST but before it can be done the spell lines and schools need to be improved. More variety in some, better abilities for schools etc.

I also agree ps/mc should be restricted to arcane caster classes and I think their should be a reclasifaction of classes/spells something to the effect of

Firstly recalisfy the over arching categories and the spells that are accesible

Arcane - Bolts, Wards/Resists
Priest - Bolts, Revits, Ward/Resist

The for each line have a level of competency of "Hybrid" or "Caster"

Then Define which category a spell belongs to and which level Eg

Binding Crystals is Ice Master
Ice bolt is ice Adept
Flame wave is Flame master
Revit is Preist

Then redefine the class descriptions so they can only cast appropriate spells

Guardian - Priest, Nature adept, Aug master
Reaver - Spirit adept Priest, Blight adept
Knoc - Summoning Adept, Arcane
Spiritist - Spirit Master, Priest, Blight Master
Druid - Nature Master, Priest, Aug Master, Life Adept
etc
etc

This way you could tighten up who can cast what spells and you could also move spells such as group heal into life adept and give paladin class that spell.

Of course this might be more difficult to implement than to explain or maybe not. It would also HEAVILY alter peoples play styles and power levels so I doubt it would happen

[Crazyfingers]

I think I agree :) I dont see a problem with multiclassing to maximize stats. Monk for evasion. Warrior for armor use etc... A good perc of multiclassing.

But allowingclasses that were notintended to be NUKERS to become Nukers without any pitfalls is where I see the problem.

For example. Build- Mage/Warrior/Healer/Monk If this Build is played as a Mage(Nuker with weak armor)I see no problems.Used Healer for hps, focus, buffs etc. Used monk for evasion. Warrior for armor use-padded ironsilk and improved mellee.Improvements to main class MAGE.

But if this Build is played as a Healer, there is a major problem. The Healers armor just took away the biggest risk allowing the Healer to become a Mage in Uber armor.

Same way for Spirit/healer/warrior/monk
Same way for Druid/healer/warrior/monk

Then you add another line of magics with their transferable spells and abilitys and you have Godlike mode.

I guess when it comes down to it, the problem lies in the use of spells. Too manymagic lines useable by a class with Decent armor.

Any class should be limited to one NUKER type Magic.Those Being Arcane/Spirit/Nature. Not just limit the spells but the transfered abilities.

Might see folks playing different classes as their Main. More reasons to group hunt etc etc.

[Crazyfingers]

I am strongly against Nerfing. To me it is a last resort. Kinda like going to war.

Would rather see the devs try Class based crystals and Rewards for Experience over lvl 100--FIRST. Would be alot easier and cause very little anger among the restless. And Just might encourage Players to stick with a certain combat style.
I hope the devs choose this direction- promote diversity not force it.

But it seems the Devs are hellbent on nerfing classes. Its their game and if Nerfs are the last resort they should be implemented correctly.

NimKhazad

[evilkarl]

I'm against the over use of the word nerfs.

Some things need adjusting down, some things need adjusting up and some things need adjusting to availability or function.

Some people would percieving making MC arcane caster only a "HUGE NERF" and follow with the "IF THIS MAKES IT TO LIVE ME AND MY 1239012093812908301 GUILD MEMBERS ARE LEAVING FOR <INSERT GAME>", I would see it as correcting something thats been broken since day 0. Sure I have MC but I still think it should be arcane caster only.

Class balance can not be obtained with only giving there needs to be taking as well.

[Crazyfingers]

Wooah, Class balancing is a very deep subject. Its like them ******** pyramids.

What exactly are the classes supposed to equal? Same importance in a group battle? Treasure hunting? Defending against the WA? Killing pesky Golems while trying to CRAFT? Amount of coins earned in an hour? Amount of Critters killed in an hour? The Size of the critter soloed? Deathpoints acquired in an hour?

ITS INSANE!!! IM INSANE! ANYONE TRYING TO BALANCES CLASSES IS INSANE!!

Might be better off trying to make Classes Unique. Some classes good for this some good for that. When you get a group of UniquePlayers together THATS when the balance happens!! Wether its to kick the WA out of Aug or hunt for rares. One Player can still achieve these things but 4 players put together can do it with less risk and greater efficeincy.

Im still nuts

NimKhazad

[PJ]

I'd go slightly differently.

Firstly kill chain casting. You can't balance anything with that still around.


Stats: Stats Mastering is fine. The whole stats mastering is too overpowered, etc is overblown. Stats enhance, they don't enable. I'm not going to go kill 1 million mobs at once because I leveled weaver for 100 more points in Dex.

Skills: Skills are fine also imo. You can argue it the other way, but elminating or reducing skill tranfering is too big a change for this late in the game imo.

Abilities: Need to be run through these again. Some should be made unmasterable, and there are probably a few that can be masterable. But whether an ablitity is unmasterable should be determined on two grounds, class definining, and power. I'm all for powerful abilities, but powerful abilities shouldn't be masterable. Now there's room for alot of debate on which abilities are class defining, and which are powerful. I'll leave that for another time.

Spells: The biggest change, because spells are the biggest enabler of the "overpowered" multiclasses.

My trade off: Armor for Area. If you want to destroy multiple mobs at once, you need to take the penalty of having next to no armor.

Based on existing spells:

If your class actually gains that skill, no change. Guardian can still use, thunder and lighting storm. That's part of being a guardian. Reaver can still use Ethereal Paroxysm.

But A class cannot cast an AOE spell from a spell school it doesn't get, unless the school wears cloth armor.

Guardian/Druid/Shaman could cast Thunder/Lighting Storm/DC, but no Ethereal Paroxysm.
Reaver could cast Ethereal Paroxysm but no Thunder/Lighting Storm/DC
Battlemage could cast Flame/Energy Bomb, but no Daunting Mist/Ice Bomb/SB

etc.


Schools wearing cloth would be unchanged.

There's a sticky situation with Paladin/Cleric/Healer and the Health Line.
I'd restrict the health line down to Cleric/Healer and let Paladin use Group Health. Then beef up Mystic Blaze, add maybe an improved version. Add an Aoe damage spell, that'd be restricted to those 3 classes.


Next the Single Schools need to be revisited. There are numerous gimpy, useless schools, and gimpy useless abliities, and broken abilities, and unfinished spell lines that need attention.


Also I'd make some tweaks to the combat system. Min/Max chances to hit. 1 is always a miss, 20's always a hit sorta thing. Also I'd revisit the effects of high armor/resists. Its possible to get t5 mobs to do 0 damage to you. And that...that's *%#$ ridiculous

[evilkarl]

I only focused on the spell side in my post heh If I was to go all out I would go into much more detail but mostly I agree with PJ.

However I would further restrict the spell lines. None of this cleric casting spirit bolt dren.

On abilities etc I do agree many that are masterable shouldn't be and many that are gained are useless. At the same time every class needs more uniqueness Instead of multistrike give it a class theme even if it does the same thing. Or replace it with a better or worse ability that has a class theme.

Skill/stats I think need to be altered by the current class so that your level up gives only a % of the stat/skills for the level the other % comes from abilities that way when you have 100 in 10 classes only your active class will be 100% effective the others will grant you abilities and limited additional functionality. How ever this would be a massive change and would take ages to do and might cause more trouble than its worth.. its still something I would like to see happen though.

[Crazyfingers]

[Y] I agree PJ. pretty much heh

Im confused. Its much easier to come up with a new system thats balanced. Than trying to somewhat balance one that is in place.

I think your AREA Damage vs Armor is a good starting point. Caster types have better abilities to damage multiple mobs while melee/dragon types better at 1v1, 2v1, 3v1 up close battles. Archers better abilities to fight from a distance. Variations(ranger, battlemage)of classes could make them more versatile but lose their POP compared to the pure class version.

NimK

[neural_hoax]

For example. Build- Mage/Warrior/Healer/Monk If this Build is played as a Mage(Nuker with weak armor)I see no problems.Used Healer for hps, focus, buffs etc. Used monk for evasion. Warrior for armor use-padded ironsilk and improved mellee.Improvements to main class MAGE.

But if this Build is played as a Healer, there is a major problem. The Healers armor just took away the biggest risk allowing the Healer to become a Mage in Uber armor.


Major flaw here, as a healer you are limited to using bolts, numbing haze, and ice shackles all single target spells. Explain to me how you are a nuker with what carries over from mage to healer.

[imported_Ssilmath]

Class balance is not possible for solo play or for group play if you have umpteen classes and multiclassing involved...uniqueness for classes is soooo much better...

I'm working on a build/quilt here which exemplifies the strengths and weaknesses of multiclassing...Paladin as the main class, then adding druid, healer, spiritist, warrior, berserker, monk, storm and spirit disciples, shaman and maybe reaver...Yeah, it's a lot of work, but by the end, and probably halfway through I'll have no weaknesses at all that can be exploited...multiple stuns, heals, buffs, DoT's, excellent armor, amazing melee skill, AoE's, roots and superior hitpoints...

That's a powerful build, and mainly for the spells...Take away some nature spells (DC too, only primarily nature classes should get it imho), all spirit spells (It makes no sense that a paladin should cast them) and the 'overpowering' aspect diminishes a lot...I'd still be powerful, but not the god that people point at...

Anyways, just my opinion...class uniqueness and specialization over nerfs...

[PJ]

Primary reason I stayed away from stats is because they're mostly enhancers. Fiddling with stats transfering wouldn't do much to a quilt's capabilities, while pissing em off unnecessarily.

Bolts are a tricky issue.

Bolts are the standard repeating attack of the caster.

Now a Level 100 spiritist who decides to level Warrior, is going to use Spirit Bolt to level. Conversely a Level 100 Warrior who decides to Level Spiritists is going to beat on mobs with a Staff, (or a Spear/Dagger (wierdos)). Can you justify taking away the former, without removing the latter? If you remove both you've just removed the ability to multiclass for the most part. Unless you make even more changes to the way experience is earned, etcetera. Changes like that aren't inherently bad, but might be too big for this late stage.

[Crazyfingers]

For example. Build- Mage/Warrior/Healer/Monk If this Build is played as a Mage(Nuker with weak armor)I see no problems.Used Healer for hps, focus, buffs etc. Used monk for evasion. Warrior for armor use-padded ironsilk and improved mellee.Improvements to main class MAGE.

But if this Build is played as a Healer, there is a major problem. The Healers armor just took away the biggest risk allowing the Healer to become a Mage in Uber armor.


Major flaw here, as a healer you are limited to using bolts, numbing haze, and ice shackles all single target spells. Explain to me how you are a nuker with what carries over from mage to healer.

Your correct- That build seems about spot on as far as versatility.

Its when you add Spiritist or Druid to the build does it become OVERPOWERD IMHO then the Healer has way to many avenues of Spellcasting for someone with good armor and a sheild.

NimK

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

Interesting comment about armor use with certain spells PJ.

I wonder if they added more blocking ability or parries to Tank classes only (includes Dragons) - would that encourage more grouping? Horizons has become such a solo game.... D&D had it right: a mage could wipe large groups but required protection to do it.

The only time people really group is for social interaction or PLing - not necessity. There should be a balance there - I'm not in any way for FORCED grouping tho.

I would like to see more group abilities - not forced grouping but maybe something along the lines of EQ2 - group styles.

Also, some more encounters or circumstances were you really need to group to have fun. Examples: fighting organized armies, more linked mobs (ie not able to cull the herd), and areas with one way in/out (no recall - so kinda tough to just stay there solo to camp a mob after getting there with a group)having epic encounters very deep in which require groups.

[imported_tjl]

awesome posts here.

chain casting:
like the others above have said, I also think chain casting is a big issue that needs serious revision. they removed it for certain heals IIRC, they should remove it for everything except buffs and non combat things. AoE chaining in particular. it would have very little impact on a non-multiclassers solo play anyway, since AoE madness is usually the realm of groups or multiclassers.

abilities:
I'm not totally sure what should be done regarding abilites. It is really late in the game to change the rewards people have recieved for multiclassing. By the same token, several of those abilities could be considered "class defining" and having them outside of the class blurs the lines too much. area syphon, foresight, spirit walk, multicast, fusion burn... to name a few.

stats:
no idea. I have some issues with stats being used to eliminate inherited weakness in a class. mages with insane health for example. low health is key to mage balance. all in all, its not as bad as and unbalancing as

spells:
who should cast what? too many classes can cast too many spells. get rid of chain casting, and that pretty much reduces the amount of spells that can be cast by a factor of 5. which would be a wonderful start. but there is still too much indistiction. I think the more defesive/melee oriented a character gets, the fewer they should have availible. evilkarl made a nice divsion of spells in his post. As did PJ with the armor for AoE statement. The most major spells (and this could almost extend to abilities, and a class as a whole as well) that need to be looked at are those that provide:

1. Damage mitigation
2. AoE
3. crowd control
4. nukes

in that order. having too many spells availible that cover these 4 general areas is what causes the balance problems... especially when used in conjunction with abilities and stats not inherent to the active class.

[Eni]

Removing chain cast at current satte would have one big issue. Not fun for a normal caster to lose his advatages about (normal) melees. What is a caster? a person i paper armor who can do more dmg against mobs in area. As casters are missing abilitys like clurry and critical they are alraedy lower in dmg output against singel targets than melee/bow. Reduceing now the abilitys to area spell and root/stun would be a realy heavy hit to all casters as schools with quake attack, energy saber and whilerwind could do better area combat than the weak armored papermans.

[Narkano]

Game balancing always is a tightrope walk especially if problems persisted for a long time and players have grown accustomed to a given system of game rules. Most changes will "take away" things and will be considered a nerf.

There are some pretty good ideas with this thread already. But keep in mind: If the rules lead to serious problems with character balancechanges often tend to overdo things into the opposite direction. Simple changes torestrictanoverpowered multiclassed character may leaveone or more single classes weak or even broken, especially spellcasters.

This gameis aboutmulticlassing to allow for unique character developmentthat makes a distinction between Horizons and most other games around. And I believe that this aspect of the game is very much appreciated bymost players. So multiclassing should have its benefits, but it should also have some reasonable restrictions to ensure some kind of balance.

- Stats: I currently do not see a problem with those.

- Abilities: I do see almost no problems with mastering abilities either. There seems to be no reason why a druid that mastered multicast should not be able to multicast his nature spells. Or a spiritist multicasting his spirit spells. Almost all melee classesget some kind of multistrike, critical, cleave or can at least master someof those. But up to now we're speaking about somewhat general abilities. Class specific abilities on the other hand should not be mastered. For example the conjurer's summoning abilities, the guardian's abilities, the bloodmage's abilities, the healer's superior resurrect ability if levels go beyond 100 and so on.

On the other hand some abilities might need adjustment in general, especially the "Cloak of Thorns" and "Lightning Arrows" ability.

- Chain casting: I see chain casting of spells only as a problem in conjunction with the general problem of too much cross casting. Matter of factly allpure spellcasters depend on chain casting their spells since slinging spells at their foes it is the only thing they can do. Restricting it especially for single-class casters would almost be the same as putting all special attack abilitiesof a fighter-class on the same timer. The pure spellcaster isn't the problem, though. It'sthe paladin or reaver in heavy full-plate armor that ischain casting Lightning Storm, Thunder andEthereal Paroxysm while healing himself... in worst case also having Cloak of Thorns active from a nearby druid or ranger.So simply doing away with chain casting cannot be the solution ... and btw. dragons currently have more AoE spells available to them than even a mage using flame, ice and energy.

- Cross casting: I consider this the major reason for our current problems with game balance. (see example above) Cross casting is the reason that a healer, cleric, paladin, druid, guardian, ranger, reaver and what else can becomean overpowereddeadly killing machine ... and thatevery mage, warrior, berserker, scout, crossbowman, monk, cleric, no matter what... is currentlyrunning aboutthrowing spirit bolts at their opponents instead of using their own primary attacks.

As mentioned above at least restrict:

- healer, cleric, paladin, druid, ranger, guardian, storm disicple to life, nature and augmentation spells.

- spirititst, reaver, spirit disciple, bloodmage to spirit, blight and augmentation spells.

- shaman to nature, blight and augmentation.

- battlemage to flame spells

- chaos warrior to energy spells

- knight of creation to ice and summoing spells

Restrict all bolt spells to theclasses from the fields of life/nature, spirit/blight, flame/ice/energy.

Perhaps further restrict classesspecialized in melee combat andreceiving heavy armor as well asfull use of multistrike, critical strike,cleave etc. from usingAoE spells. Would be at least Paladin andReaver.

Leavegifts andraisesopen to all classes getting skill with it. Leave revitalize and improved revitalize open to all classes getting skill with it, since it is the only way most classes can get their hands on some form of cleansing. An almost all mobs make ample use of deadly debuffs.

- Narkano

[Helcat]

funny how all those advocating the denial of
Perfect Spell and Multicast to Druids/Clerics still
want tokeep their own Revitalize/Imp. Revit.

I say fair is fair. You want to push for removal
of these skills... be willing to give up something
you should have never had access to in the first place.

Be careful when you start advocating subtractive
measures... the nerf bat swings both ways.


your pal,


Helcat