Class Balance?

[PJ]

AoE damage vs armor is the trade off that should be made. The manner in which the tradeoff occurs well...

In my opinion just restricting armored classes from just the highest tier isn't enough. The difference between using t4 of a spell and t5 of a spell is noticeable, but it isn't big.

Although you could scale it.

Cloth cast up to t6
Leather up to t5
Chain up to t4
Plate up to t3


As for CoT. What I'd do is make the damage CoT does to the mob, proportional to the damage you take from the mob.

Atm the only restriction is you have to get damaged, if you're getting hit for 0 Cot does 0 damage. But if you get hit even for single digits, the damage from CoT is insane. If you're getting wailed on as a caster, you'll dish out decent damage. But if you're barely getting scratched it won't be nearly so high.

[Helcat]

you also have to consider that Nature spell damage
is pitiful compared to Arcane damage, and Druids thus
rely on their class-defining CoT to supplement damage.
Take that away, and Druid would actually need some
major buffs in the damage dept...

[imported_Ssilmath]

Well, you and I agree on that point Helcat...

[Crazyfingers]

I agree Ssilmath, its not the key factor. But I think where many find the unbalanced is in the ubernuking-killing mass amounts of mobs over and over at a swift pace. If Reducing Armor or/tradeoff Reducing Spell power slows this aspect of Horizons down, I feel the game would feel more balanced. Seems like a fair tradeoff without completely nerfing the whole combat system.

NimK

[Helcat]

And Nature damage has taken a pretty big hit recently,
with nearlyevery Outpost MOB resistant to Nature damage.
I was out there hunting the other night, and hitting for
ZERO damage on nearly every MOB with my Nature spells.
Had I not had Spirit Bolt, I'd not been able to kill even
the lowest rated critter...

[Crazyfingers]

AoE damage vs armor is the trade off that should be made. The manner in which the tradeoff occurs well...

In my opinion just restricting armored classes from just the highest tier isn't enough. The difference between using t4 of a spell and t5 of a spell is noticeable, but it isn't big.

Although you could scale it.

Cloth cast up to t6
Leather up to t5
Chain up to t4
Plate up to t3


As for CoT. What I'd do is make the damage CoT does to the mob, proportional to the damage you take from the mob.

Atm the only restriction is you have to get damaged, if you're getting hit for 0 Cot does 0 damage. But if you get hit even for single digits, the damage from CoT is insane. If you're getting wailed on as a caster, you'll dish out decent damage. But if you're barely getting scratched it won't be nearly so high.

Seems fair to me. It MUST be across the board thou. EVERY type of Magic Spell. Heals, buffs, bolts, bombs, etheral, nature.

Everyone must take the Armor vs Spell Power tradeoff.

NimK

[Helcat]

As for CoT. What I'd do is make the damage CoT does to the mob, proportional to the damage you take from the mob.

Atm the only restriction is you have to get damaged, if you're getting hit for 0 Cot does 0 damage. But if you get hit even for single digits, the damage from CoT is insane. If you're getting wailed on as a caster, you'll dish out decent damage. But if you're barely getting scratched it won't be nearly so high.

Not calling you a liar, but in all the time I've been a Druid
(which is a pretty long time...) I've never seen CoT actually
do more damage than the damage taken. It's always been
a percentage of the damage taken... at least that I've seen...

[PJ]

Just the mages and clerics are nature immune, i believe. The ones in the Blight Warrior School take nature damage.

But I suspect the WA are working hard on their nature resistances because well, the majority of the gifted are using nature attacks.

[imported_Ssilmath]

I think Helcat is correct here...I'll have to test it out, but regardless, it is still a huge amount, and when coupled with a lot of life skill makes it easy to kill with little effort...I'm not calling for a nerf to it, but perhaps a readjustment if and only if there is a way to make it up to the druids...

[PJ]

As it stands, you can cast CoT on other more armored people. Then they can go shread everything in sight. You can probably test iton some lower tier mobs that hit you for less and see iff the damage goes down.

[Kwinn]

I thought long and hard about this today. Kinda weights deeply on me mind. Read and Re-read all the post on this thread, Kwinn's and others. My conclusion is this.

Tweaking, adjusting, or nerfing is gonna cause alot of problems. Most parts of multiclassing works, maybe not as intended, but none the less Works. Instead of taking away players abilities, as AAO suggested, take away their armor. ANYONE wearing ARMOR besides CLOTH cannot cast over tier IV spells. Im gonna use my build for example because its what Im most familiar with.

Guardian/Healer/MONK/Bloodmage If I choose to play as a Guardian everything is the same except my spells only go up to tier IV. I still have 1500 spirit from being a bloodmage. My tier IV spirit bolt will still hit for decent damage. My EP will still hit for decent damage. Just not as much as A TIER V one.

So if a Healer, Druid, Battlemage, Guardian, Reaver, Paladin etc wants to go the MORE caster route, THEY STILL CAN. Just need to drop down to cloth armor.

Nuthing changes except requirements on casting tier V spells is CLOTH ARMOR.

Casters need to fall more in line with mellee and archery playstyles. IMHO Reducing a Casters armor is the fairest way in the current set up. Nobody loses abilities or stats just have to take the risk of using flimsier armor. Im sure there would be a few complaints but they could be easily defended against.

Once this is implemented, could finish schools, fix broken abilities and add improved spells and abilities to classes to make them more playable and interesting.

NimKhazad

My main is battlemage. If I read this right, mithril plate nets me t4 spells at best. Or cloth armor nets me t5 and beyond. Hmmmm, not bad not bad at all. Can I still carry a shield?? Maybe not the fine large mithril job but a nice round wooden one wouldnt be too out of line and still allow t5 spell usage.

Or perhaps just make it non-metal gets t5 and metal get at most t4. That way there is some reasonable protection and it wont require some folks to completely re-do their style of play to use t5 spells. They would have to be more cautious though, much more cautious.

[Crazyfingers]

heh

I cant figure out a better balancing tool than armor vs casting power. Health vs Casting Power would result in full scale riots.

Armor vs Casting Power would be a change across the whole community. EVEN DRAGONS! This way its completely fair and not baised towards a certain style of play or Class.

NimKhazad

[Helcat]

As it stands, you can cast CoT on other more armored people. Then they can go shread everything in sight. You can probably test iton some lower tier mobs that hit you for less and see iff the damage goes down.

Then perhaps the solution is to make CoT a self-buff only.



(Afterall, with all the non-Druids calling for an adjustment,
don't expect a Druid to buff you with it when it gets nerfed...

j/k

kinda...)

[imported_Ssilmath]

Ummm...I'm a druid tooHelcat...It's actually one of my favorites to play as...It's just not my end focus...

[Helcat]

But I suspect the WA are working hard on their nature resistances because well, the majority of the gifted are using nature attacks.

that must be a Chaos phenomenon then,
because on Order, I've yet to see Nature
spells be the primary damage dealer of
choice...


Melee and Arcane magic run neck-and-neck as
the attack of choice, followed by Spirit, with
Nature being last.

[PJ]

I was just checking on CoT

Certainly not proportional to damage taken.

PersonalJustice -> Citrine Golem : Cloak of Thorns III [158]
Citrine Golem -> PersonalJustice [1]


PersonalJustice -> Emerald Golem : Cloak of Thorns III [171]
Emerald Golem -> PersonalJustice : [142]

Even wearing Padded Ironsilk my CoT III was dishing out more damage then I took.



But I've got no problem with CoT being cast on group members. Just make it do say 150% of incoming damage to the mob.

[Crazyfingers]

HEhe ok ok. Leave the druids alone! Give them the same disadvantage as others. Cloth armor for tier V and above spells.

I really dont think Druids are overpowered, kinda slower style of killing things really. Its effective but not the most effecient. Thier risk of dying is Overpowered, reduce thier armor to Cloth and would level out. IMHO

NimK

[imported_Ssilmath]

<Points up at his post noting that armor has nothing to do with his survivability>

Not that I could take out 10 T5 mobs at once, no way...

But at level 65 I can take on a T6 mob no problem, with less than 300 armor

[Crazyfingers]

I agree Ssilmath, its not the key factor. But I think where many find the unbalanced is in the ubernuking-killing mass amounts of mobs over and over at a swift pace. If Reducing Armor or/tradeoff Reducing Spell power slows this aspect of Horizons down, I feel the game would feel more balanced. Seems like a fair tradeoff without completely nerfing the whole combat system.

NimK

[Y]

[Helcat]

wait a minute now! I thought it was
Cloth armor for T6 spells and leather
for T5! LOL!