Dragon Lairshaping Preview

[Deth]

Onupgradeinga lair take a Tier 6 Consignment Shop. Notice it has tier 5 and 6 esource needs. So all but Tier one would be the same. SO starting at 1 you would deconstruct what you build take teh novians that you have from it and apply it to the next tier up. So it would partial be built and I belive you get Xp for applying Novians. No each time you starting at 2nd you will end up with novians that you can not use as there is no way to convert novians up to the next higer tier but it will still reduce youre work by some.

On craft machines I thought that their was only beginner journman and Expert for bonus to your skill. I am not sure how that will work for us. I wopuld assume that there is a new room that acts as a silo but does not look like a silo.

[Varangaard]

as a lvl 100 lairshaper you dont have opt skill to place a t5 part

Actually, since we get 10 lairshaping per level, at level 100 it will be base skill 1000. Add to that lairshaping V-teched scales, and you have +200 for 1200. Stat bonus, depending on which stats are used, could be anywhere between 50 and 100 - or more if you use the right type of scales. If we get a skill quest line, the 10th quest will be +100 more.

Optimal on tier V is achievable on lairshaping. For the rest of the skills that come 8 per level, it will be... difficult at best. Maximum level, fully teched scales, quest lines, stat bonuses and biped buffs (gift+enhance+surge) and it may be achievable. Haven't done the math yet.

[Death-knell]

So, what are the stats that affect lairshaping and crystals.

[Vignar]

I was wondering how possible it would be to allow lairs to have their entrances modified in the future? Perhaps add outside waterfalls of different sorts and be able to position them around, and perhaps add rocks/boulders and small ponds in the immediate vicinity around the lair entrance? Kind of like having that level partially like a surface biped plot. Or maybe add apile of animal bones.

That would be very cool. A lair enterance that is hidden:boulders justtaller than the tallest Adult dragon with moss, vines, or spiderwebds(depending on your theme, i.e. "pile of [gnome] bones") to hide the small crack enterancebetween the boulders.

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Vlisson wrote: as a lvl 100 lairshaper you dont have opt skill to place a t5 part
Actually, since we get 10 lairshaping per level, at level 100 it will be base skill 1000. Add to that lairshaping V-teched scales, and you have +200 for 1200. Stat bonus, depending on which stats are used, could be anywhere between 50 and 100 - or more if you use the right type of scales. If we get a skill quest line, the 10th quest will be +100 more.

Optimal on tier V is achievable on lairshaping. For the rest of the skills that come 8 per level, it will be... difficult at best. Maximum level, fully teched scales, quest lines, stat bonuses and biped buffs (gift+enhance+surge) and it may be achievable. Haven't done the math yet.

Don't you need your Base skill to meet the requirements for scribing a formula? I don't know what the requirements for bipeds are to scribe T6 construction form, but I don't think our base can get high enough if our forms are comparable requirements.


From http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=100505

Here is the checklist for remaining work and testing:
...NPC spawning

Will our NPCs be Dragons?


Great so far! More Pictures! -> Hoard Chamber

Is the Lair chamber = biped house?

[PJ]

All Formulas are scribed using current.

[Tympest]

Optimal on tier V is achievable on lairshaping. For the rest of the skills that come 8 per level, it will be... difficult at best. Maximum level, fully teched scales, quest lines, stat bonuses and biped buffs (gift+enhance+surge) and it may be achievable. Haven't done the math yet.

1200 skill is possible. I tested to see if I could get 1200 in all the processing skills for the blight master forms event - I got essence shaping 1217, gemworking 1197, smelting 1152, and stoneworking 1143. Those numbers are self buffed with T5 scales and T5 techs, gemworking could be higher if I used power scales instead of strength scales and smelting/stoneworking will have another +100 once quests are put in.

[Varangaard]

Indeed. I rechecked today the new craft scales I just made for myself. With those on and fully self-buffed, I get smelting 1123 even though scales have just smelting IV. A fully completed smelting quest line will add 100 to that, so it is safe to say 1200 is achievable. Now gemworking gets only 5% from power so it may be necessaru to tech with gemworking V, but it seems the limit can be reached on all skills.

[Dragoniade]

Indeed. I rechecked today the new craft scales I just made for myself. With those on and fully self-buffed, I get smelting 1123 even though scales have just smelting IV. A fully completed smelting quest line will add 100 to that, so it is safe to say 1200 is achievable. Now gemworking gets only 5% from power so it may be necessaru to tech with gemworking V, but it seems the limit can be reached on all skills.

Dragons are still missing 'specialization' school for their stats that are way bellow average. Take mining at 7 per level. That's bellow what nearly all other construction classes get. But there's a catch, those classes can get a bonus point by taking another class, for instance, miner or Gatherer, which a +4 differences.

Dragons, well, they get a nice +1 if they take the mastery quest. Dragons will ALWAYS be bellow everyone else when it come to crafting. And don't tell me to use crafting scales. If you do, then I'll just take another crafting class, and equip it will crafting jewellery and tools.

DragonLairshapper NEEDS a stat boost, or a parallel mastery set of quests. Contrarely to the 'Dragon Crafter' school, which is a general one, Lairshapper is a specific one. QUarrying, gemworking, crystalworking should get more than the mere 7-8 they're getting.

Why when it come to dragons school, EVERYTHING has to be BELLOW everyone else?

And raise the stats for god sake. 5 is nearly HALF of what every other crafting classes are getting. Why are you giving dragon crafting school no reason to level it first? If I were to level carpenter or miner, at least, I would get an advantage in combat from the extra strength. Dragons can't even feel it.

[AmonGwareth]

I appreciate your feedback, Dragoniade. But I have yet to see any compelling reason to raise the stat gains for the Lairshaper school.

At 8 points per level with an additional 100 points available via quest, Dragons are more than capable of reaching well over 1200 skill points. That is enough to scribe the master forms and around optimal for T5 lair construction (as well as above the minimum for T6).

[Pharcellus]

I don't see any point in putting in T6 structures, as VERY few Dragons are going to bother with it because we can never be anything but minimal with it. Might as well be doing transmutation for biped construction.

I think the most compelling reason I would have for finding a way to give us SOME way to give Dragons the same way to achieve what bipeds CAN achieve is that we also pay $12.95 (nominal) a month for a play experience. I am beyond tired of all my stats and most of my skills being PERMANENTLY and FOREVER capped at being the suck when compared to what bipeds can accomplish. I am sorry, but my immersion is all but completely nonexistant anymore.At my absolute best, I am physically weaker, slower, less powerful, less focused, and less capable than bipeds even at less than their absolute best.

"Yeah, but you haven't put in the effort to earn that power like they have!".
First, remember who you are talking to here. >I< HAVE.
Second, fine! GIVE ME A WAY TO DO SO. I don't want it handed to me on a mithril platter. I am HAPPY to EARN it.

I am sorry the game system is so screwed up that you can't find a way to make it work.

Find one anyway, despite the game system.

[Deth]

Dragons are still missing 'specialization' school for their stats that are way bellow average. Take mining at 7 per level. That's bellow what nearly all other construction classes get. But there's a catch, those classes can get a bonus point by taking another class, for instance, miner or Gatherer, which a +4 differences.

Dragons, well, they get a nice +1 if they take the mastery quest. Dragons will ALWAYS be bellow everyone else when it come to crafting. And don't tell me to use crafting scales. If you do, then I'll just take another crafting class, and equip it will crafting jewellery and tools.

DragonLairshapper NEEDS a stat boost, or a parallel mastery set of quests. Contrarely to the 'Dragon Crafter' school, which is a general one, Lairshapper is a specific one. QUarrying, gemworking, crystalworking should get more than the mere 7-8 they're getting.

Why when it come to dragons school, EVERYTHING has to be BELLOW everyone else?

And raise the stats for god sake. 5 is nearly HALF of what every other crafting classes are getting. Why are you giving dragon crafting school no reason to level it first? If I were to level carpenter or miner, at least, I would get an advantage in combat from the extra strength. Dragons can't even feel it.

If you look at the classes on Harvesting skills ,with our quest we are about the the same. No we are not the same as a Miner/Gather, but then that is a specialized class. Do I think we should get access to a specialized miner class? No we already get all but the wood and cloth harvesting skills in once class that a biped would have to take 2 different classes up to our one to get the 3 extra points that we get.

As to our resource finishing skills with the skills that we do have the quest with we are equal to all other classes. The 2 we are missing are said to be in the works. So once again for 1 class here we get the same as all other classes.

The only place that we fall short in the skill department is our Scalecraft. Even with the +1 we are still only at 9. Which is better then the basic craft classes but not as good as the advanced class. As I do not see a "Advanced"Scalecrafter class coming or any reason for some form of "advanced" Scalecrafter class this should be raised to 9. I think most would understand and agree that this and not Spellcrafter should be raised to 9 as we would have no one else to compete with unlike spellcraft. The would give us the chance to more easily craft our higher level scale then we do now as this 100 points that we lose out to the more advanced specialty classes.

On Stats Looking I see what they did. Basically we get a flat +5 across the board, where as the bipeds have some at 8 and others to counter this at 2. Being at the time we only had 1 craft class how do you approve of gimping 1 stat to improve another? Do you lower str so the melee types yell? Or lower power so the Caster types yell? The down side is now that a new class is out they can not unfairly raise one skill over another a they can not go back and change the old class, I would think with out problems as I have heard other games say how much of a pain stat changes after the fact are, stats to something different. It would be nice to be able to earn some bonus craft stats but I do not see an easy way that would not have the Biped screaming even more. Could you see the whining if we also got stat quest as well as skill quest?

I don't see any point in putting in T6 structures, as VERY few Dragons are going to bother with it because we can never be anything but minimal with it. Might as well be doing transmutation for biped construction.

I think the most compelling reason I would have for finding a way to give us SOME way to give Dragons the same way to achieve what bipeds CAN achieve is that we also pay $12.95 (nominal) a month for a play experience. I am beyond tired of all my stats and most of my skills being PERMANENTLY and FOREVER capped at being the suck when compared to what bipeds can accomplish. I am sorry, but my immersion is all but completely nonexistant anymore.At my absolute best, I am physically weaker, slower, less powerful, less focused, and less capable than bipeds even at less than their absolute best.

"Yeah, but you haven't put in the effort to earn that power like they have!".
First, remember who you are talking to here. >I< HAVE.
Second, fine! GIVE ME A WAY TO DO SO. I don't want it handed to me on a mithril platter. I am HAPPY to EARN it.

I am sorry the game system is so screwed up that you can't find a way to make it work.

Find one anyway, despite the game system.

You do know that we like Bipeds will get 10 in our construction skill? So we will be just as efficient as the bipeds? Tech wise I am not sure how many craft techs they can have compared to us with their can go on this item can not go on this item set up. That may or may not add some points but not sure how many.

Again see above for skills only 1 real short fall that I see. Stats I think we are just stuck with. It would be nice but even once they put out Crystalshaping class I do not see them changing it for stats. They could head off some of stat problems by maybe changing some of the stat bonus on Lairshaping and counter it with the Crystalshaping class when it comes out. But as we already get 5 in all our base class I would not go more then +7/3 extreme or maybe even +6/4 set. That would allow some one that wants to work all three class up some kind of stat bonus and you do not get the bipeds if they notice, and I am sure they will as there are some that watches up very close for any power gain at all, to whine to much in the fact, "We once again are being catered to and being spoon feed more power for less work.

[imported_Robins]

Also Expert Shops add +75 to skills such as Gemworking, Essence Shaping, Smelting and Stoneworking. This bonus can be used to Scribe the Master forms and will help alot to process the Teir 6 resources. By the time anyone will be able to do Tier 6 lairs there willprobably also be a Journeyman type Crystalshaping shop for the +50 bonus.

I know on Chaos Expert Jewelry(Apia), Scholar(Apia) and Blacksmith(Ambato) shops already exist and once master forms are in alot more will be available.

[Firedragon]

w00tness on wh33ls!

Me wants to build!

[Varangaard]

Also Expert Shops add +75 to skills such as Gemworking, Essence Shaping, Smelting and Stoneworking.

There's a catch to this, I believe. Based on discussions on the master form event thread over at General, I believe you need to have 1200 skill to acquire the form (or a quest for the form, dunno). As the ghosts are far inside the eastern blight, you can't very well stand inside an expert shop for the +75 while talking to them.[:)]

[Dragoniade]

If you look at the classes on Harvesting skills ,with our quest we are about the the same. No we are not the same as a Miner/Gather, but then that is a specialized class. Do I think we should get access to a specialized miner class? No we already get all but the wood and cloth harvesting skills in once class that a biped would have to take 2 different classes up to our one to get the 3 extra points that we get.

You're forgetting Foraging too. And we're not getting +9 with our mastery. We're getting +8 with mining, quarrying and Essence harvesting (7+1). Perhaps most biped need to take 2 classes to get both, but they can. Dragon class are only the blacksmith of the biped. With the arrival of a new class, all Tulga did was create another blacksmith class. No possibility to improve all our other stats. When we'll reach level 100 in laircrafting, ALL our old skill will have remained unchanged. It should be time that we get something to raise our skill to the same level as any other race.

Change the mastery quests in gathering to give us +30 instead of +10, +20 instead of +10 in processing skill to cover the lacking IF you don't want to fix the low stats and won't give use balancing class.

On Stats Looking I see what they did. Basically we get a flat +5 across the board, where as the bipeds have some at 8 and others to counter this at 2. Being at the time we only had 1 craft class how do you approve of gimping 1 stat to improve another? Do you lower str so the melee types yell? Or lower power so the Caster types yell? The down side is now that a new class is out they can not unfairly raise one skill over another a they can not go back and change the old class, I would think with out problems as I have heard other games say how much of a pain stat changes after the fact are, stats to something different. It would be nice to be able to earn some bonus craft stats but I do not see an easy way that would not have the Biped screaming even more. Could you see the whining if we also got stat quest as well as skill quest?

And? So total useless imbalance is better than some balance skills? +5 is totally useless. All you need is have 2 level over adventurer to be totally over it. What's the reason to raise crafting over adventure other than unlocking scale slot (the latest still being completly ridiculous). None. Raise any other crafting class to 60 firsts, and you'll se the difference in adventuring. You can't do the same with dragon craftings schoolS at all.

And screw the biped. They're already screamed over with ancient power and ancient size. When they start playing a dragon, then they may scream. Or should we start screaming over unlimited multiclassing where we don't have any way to balance things up?

[Dragoniade]

I appreciate your feedback, Dragoniade. But I have yet to see any compelling reason to raise the stat gains for the Lairshaper school.

At 8 points per level with an additional 100 points available via quest, Dragons are more than capable of reaching well over 1200 skill points. That is enough to scribe the master forms and around optimal for T5 lair construction (as well as above the minimum for T6).

Wrong. That's not 8 points per levels. That's SEVEN points for some the the BASIC abilities where we can't improve other than getting.

And how can you say we can reach EASILY 1200?
Let me do the math. 8 * 100 = 800. That's easy and linear.
Now lets do the quests. That's no as much easy, but that's what dragon are for...
10*10 = 100 Total: 900
1200 - 900 = 300.

So where are the missing points? Parallel school? Parallel quests? There's none. And lets not forget stoneworking and smelting are still lacking their mastery quests, which bring up at lairshaping releast at 800 points.

And it's the same with gathering skills. 7*100 + 10*10 = 800 MAX

There's quite a difference between 11*10 = 1100 BASE and 10*100 = 100 BASE some other school gets.

I know that raising ALL skills to 10 may make some biped whines, since they have to take another class to have that. But we CAN'T, and the quest barely cover that ever since YOU nerfed the skill increase (remember how it used to be +10,+20,+30 instead of being +10,+10,+10) At least back then, we could raise our stat and compensate for the lack of multiclass. But now, even with multiclass, we don't get any way to improve those stats.

Unless you're telling me that, as a Lair Crafter, all the Crafting Mastery quests are reseted and that we can do them again, and get an extra 100 points. That would bring use to 900 rather than 800.

And also, harvesting skills should be increased to 8 instead of 7. You're usising the excuse of decreasing our other skills lower than most class because we're versatile, but keep the same biped rules for harvesting.

If we were given +8 all the way for no-finishing skills, and +10 to all finishing skills, and repeatable mastery quests per school, that would balance things up.

And it's not about scribing, it's about usability. There's no reason to keep 2:1 on applying and crafting, and lowering our stats simply mean we CAN'T be optimal and make the crafting enjoyable, especially with all the nerf you keep doing to it (metal nerf for instance).

[Death-knell]

I appreciate your feedback, Dragoniade. But I have yet to see any compelling reason to raise the stat gains for the Lairshaper school.

At 8 points per level with an additional 100 points available via quest, Dragons are more than capable of reaching well over 1200 skill points. That is enough to scribe the master forms and around optimal for T5 lair construction (as well as above the minimum for T6).

OK, how bout raise them because we are inferior to biped stat increases in every way!

Why is dragon crafting inferior to biped crafters in every way?

Please don't try and use the versatility argument because thats just plain sh!t. Any biped can out versatile dragons by plain multiclassing. So, something really should be done.

[imported_Kepesk]

I don't see any point in putting in T6 structures, as VERY few Dragons are going to bother with it because we can never be anything but minimal with it.

I will, I enjoy the challenge. The fact that dragons can't reach as high a skill as bipeds just makes it, well, more of a challenge. ;)

-Your friendly neighborhood stripey dragon

[Pharcellus]

Yeah, I said that when I put 12 Expert Machines and 40 T6 silos on our guild plots as a project for the entire guild. I've since deleted and replaced the 40 T6 silos with T4s because it just wasn't going to happen.

You'll have your challenge, alright. However, after the T6 parts sit unfinished for 6-12 MONTHS, I wager you'll be deleting and replacing them with something lower-tier as well. AT BEST, T6 to us will be equal to transmutation right now to bipeds. Most likely, the reality will be much, much worse.

[Pharcellus]

If you look at the classes on Harvesting skills ,with our quest we are about the the same. No we are not the same as a Miner/Gather, but then that is a specialized class.

Doesn't matter. A biped CAN take it, and often does. My biped did. The point I made was that AT ABSOLUTE MAX POSSIBLE EFFORT, we are still significantly outclassed. 300 skill in Harvesting makes a LOT of difference between getting 1 ore per strike and actually filling your pack/disk in less than an hour. 100 skill in Refining means the difference between wasting tons of resources and getting on with the building process. Remember that T6 is INTENTIONALLY designed to make it so that even BIPEDS will not be optimal with it. It is highly unlikely we will be anything but 5:1 in it. EVER.

Do I think we should get access to a specialized miner class? No we already get all but the wood and cloth harvesting skills in once class that a biped would have to take 2 different classes up to our one to get the 3 extra points that we get.

Like I said, I don't CARE how it is done. Give us a grind. Give it to us as part of the class. Wave a magic wand. JUST make it POSSIBLE SOMEHOW. It is POSSIBLE for bipeds, why isn't it POSSIBLE for us? WHY do we CONSTANTLY have to be INFERIOR to bipeds in everything we do?

As to our resource finishing skills with the skills that we do have the quest with we are equal to all other classes. The 2 we are missing are said to be in the works. So once again for 1 class here we get the same as all other classes.

Incorrect. Miner/Gatherer gets 10 per level in refining skills. It doesn't take that long to level Miner/Gatherer as additional classes. I know, I DID IT. It is REALLY worth the extra effort.

On Stats Looking I see what they did. Basically we get a flat +5 across the board, where as the bipeds have some at 8 and others to counter this at 2.

Fitter gets +10 in Strength. Weaver gets +10 in Dexterity. Now, all schools are "balanced" in that 20 points are distributed among 4 stats, but when you throw Multiclassing into the mix, a biped has the capability to get 1000 STR, 1000 DEX, 800 POW, and 800 FOC, just from construction schools alone. WE have only the capability to get 500 in each. EVER.

Being at the time we only had 1 craft class how do you approve of gimping 1 stat to improve another? Do you lower str so the melee types yell? Or lower power so the Caster types yell? The down side is now that a new class is out they can not unfairly raise one skill over another a they can not go back and change the old class, I would think with out problems as I have heard other games say how much of a pain stat changes after the fact are, stats to something different. It would be nice to be able to earn some bonus craft stats but I do not see an easy way that would not have the Biped screaming even more. Could you see the whining if we also got stat quest as well as skill quest?

What approval do I need to give? Bipeds apparently already have someone's approval to be that way, BECAUSE THEY ARE. As for biped screaming, I DON'T CARE ANYMORE. Let 'em scream. They already get the best of just about everything from the game; screw 'em. I CANNOT see how us being able to build OUR plots as efficiently as THEY can gives ANY of them ANY reason to **********. HOW does that HURT them? Hmmmm???

You do know that we like Bipeds will get 10 in our construction skill? So we will be just as efficient as the bipeds? Tech wise I am not sure how many craft techs they can have compared to us with their can go on this item can not go on this item set up. That may or may not add some points but not sure how many.

I am aware of it. So? OK, cool, we will be as efficient on making the FINAL pieces and placing them. That's 1 of 3 parts. The way construction works, it is all about TIME. If it takes you 7-8 times as long to harvest the materials (by far the largest percentage of time spent in construction, second only to hauling), and the efficiency in making the materials is at minimal, then being optimal in Construction and placement is still going to mean SERIOUS amounts of additional time to get it done. I'm not talking 50% to 100% longer, I am talking 500% to 1000% longer AT THE MINIMUM. T6 construction is already going to be hellaciously difficult as it is. Making it that much harder without decent Harvesting/Refining skills, it is going to be virtually impossible. A T6 Grand Hall is going to take a lone Dragon potentially up to 2 YEARS to complete.

Personally, give us the ******** classes. Let us apply our earned experience above 100 to them, and then continue levelling. Done. We've "earned" it.