Dragon Lairshaping Preview

[Freak]

Posted by Amon on the other boards.


Date Posted:10/7 7:23amSubject: RE: Dragon Lairshaping and Lairs Preview Actually some of it will be available for testing with tbe next database patch to blight.

-----signature----- Jason Murdick
Designer / Programmer
Tulga Games, LLC
Julius Caesar: "Iacta alea est"

Sweet! I can't Wait to get testing!!![Y][:D]

[Vesh]

Wow, I've just started reading the boards again, and I am completely unimpressed by most. The dev's come out with something that most dragons have been waiting for, and the first thing they do is bash it?! Come on people...is that not a bit selfish? I, myself, am looking forward to seeing Dragon lairs come in. It will allow the dev's to concentrate on other things.

As for the part about dragons only gaining 7 or 8 skill a level, and being "limited", "below", or sub-par to Bi-Peds, get over it. THAT'S what you signed up for when you started a dragon. If you don't like it, STOP PLAYING A DRAGON OR STOP COMPLAINING.

[imported_Kepesk]

Horray Vesh! I second that notion! Finally someone with their head on straight. :)

-Your friendly neighborhood stripey dragon

[Pharcellus]

Wow, I've just started reading the boards again, and I am completely unimpressed by most. The dev's come out with something that most dragons have been waiting for, and the first thing they do is bash it?! Come on people...is that not a bit selfish? I, myself, am looking forward to seeing Dragon lairs come in. It will allow the dev's to concentrate on other things.

I'm not looking to bash it. I'm looking to FIX it. It is not complete yet, this was an initial preview, and subject to further revision. So, I did what I am expected to do as a player and tester, and point out issues with it that I think need to be looked at. It doesn't mean I hate the whole concept. It doesn't mean I wish Amon's keyboard would explode on him. I'm very happy that Lairs are getting close to completed. I'm happy with a lot of the effort that went into them. I just don't want it to turn into another fiasco like ARoP with a last minute "rush to finish" bad judgment call. All that work and effort, all that buildup and enthusiasm, shot to hell over a few final things that would have been avoided if due diligence and proper communication ensued.

It is best to discuss issues with it change it now, while it isn't set in stone. That's why I have posted; the debate only rages because idiots come in and inflame it to that point with the same old crap.

As for the part about dragons only gaining 7 or 8 skill a level, and being "limited", "below", or sub-par to Bi-Peds, get over it. THAT'S what you signed up for when you started a dragon. If you don't like it, STOP PLAYING A DRAGON OR STOP COMPLAINING.

To be honest, you have NO CLUE what I signed up for when I started a Dragon on 12/09/2003. You know why? Because WE DIDN'T EITHER. We were told a lot of things about how Dragons "were supposed to be", and what the "vision" was going forward. Well, if the journey to the Star of Vision was the litmus, we didn't even leave the atmosphere on launch.

As for all the complaining, the reason we don't have hoard leak today is because we complained. The reason we have a lot of the adventuring and crafting quests today is because we complained. The reason we have some spells and spell techs today is because we complained. The reason we have more armor today is because we complained. So, basically, complaining is what gets things fixed for Dragons. Without it, we would have none of what we have today.

It isn't *MY* or any other Dragon's fault that is the way things get done around here. I'm not the one running the company. It's the way they set it up to enable change in the game.

There is NO REASON at all why Dragons HAVE to be subpar. NONE. They are because of a broken game system that sets them apart from all the other races on a flawed notion that we are supposed to be "different". Got news for you, different doesn't HAVE to always mean "inferior". Not in terms of game systems, and DEFINITELY not in terms of the epitome of what Dragons are known to be in the rest of the universe.

You're a biped. If there is something you don't like about your chosen class, then you are just as free to complain as I am or anyone else here. Wait, I forgot, you don't NEED to complain; you can just change classes to fix where you are weak! Still, even after 20x100 adventure and 19x100 craft classes, if you still have issues about your character, you can come here and complain about it. I certainly won't stop you; I certainly won't tell you to stop playing your toon, or stop complaining.

Too freaking bad other people can't seem to offer me the same courtesy. Fine.

[Vignar]

Excoration of Earth (Weak, Mild, Strong, Potent, Fervid, Volative), Requires 15/30 Stone Bricks, 15/30 Metal Bars.

Should this be Excoriation: To tear or wear off the skin of
As in taking a layer of the earth?

[Kitimandiri]

Have lairs hit blight yet?

[Ksulitan]

Ok, since I've only been playing a biped this may seem like an odd post for me but at this point I believe that a lot of the biped posters that I've seen are a bit out of control.

Dragons should be sub-par and shouldn't be able to compare to even a single classed biped in skills? I say this because a single classed biped crafter is still going to have skills above and beyond a dragon even without appropriate gear. As for the argument of dragons being generalists, how does that apply to the dragon-only useful class/skill of lair shaping? This is a very specialized ability/class. If it were a biped crafting class you can bet that they'd be getting 10 or 11 per level in the class specific skills(like a mason or a carpenter or even a gatherer/miner). It does nothing to hurt game balance to give dragons a good skill gain in a skill that can't be used for anything other than building, again like masonry/carpentry/etc.

All in all this would make it very difficult for someone to "get over it". Countless bipeds would cry foul if they suddenly found themselves actually penalized for multiclassing. As it is, the adventure rating system while a good idea doesn't really hurt the multiclassed biped. Especially since with the usual mix of classes, a biped can easily solo mobs above their level with little to no downtime.

So there's my two cents worth even if it's not really wanted.

Tiranel Lasvaimus
52 Shaman + lots of random crafting classes because of CADD

[Vesh]

There is NO REASON at all why Dragons HAVE to be subpar.

Except maybe the way the game was conceived? Who says Dragons HAVE to be better, bigger, and whatever than everyone else?

DEFINITELY not in terms of the epitome of what Dragons are known to be in the rest of the universe.

Well, ok, you're right here...to the rest of the universe, Dragons DON'T EXIST. They are fictional characters on a fictional game that came around due to the fact that someone thought that Dragons should have this set of attributes.

You're a biped.

You're right again, Vesh is a biped. But, what makes you think that I don't play a dragon too? Or that I didn't play and defend my Dragon just as you are now. Yeah, I would put up with the constant harassment of my friends who also played. "Dragons suck", or something of the like. And just so its in here, Seroth was started 3.10.03. I knew exactly what I was starting with, the capabilities of dragons as opposed to bipeds. I liked the challenge of being not as good as my friends. But hey, not everyone likes a challenge, and I have nothing against them in that respect.

Too freaking bad other people can't seem to offer me the same courtesy. Fine.

I didn't attack you in any way. None of that was directed at you in particular. It was meant to show that people aren't satisfied until they get their way. I know that as a fact. I work with 2nd and 3rd graders here.

[Goriax]

Well, I think the lairs look pretty cool and I'm looking forward to having one.

[Theolaerynn]

Same!! I hope our guild plot gets a Lair!

[Kitimandiri]

Lets just all be friends...

[Pharcellus]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Pharcellus wrote: There is NO REASON at all why Dragons HAVE to be subpar.

Except maybe the way the game was conceived? Who says Dragons HAVE to be better, bigger, and whatever than everyone else?

Aye, who said that? Not me, that's for sure. Your point?

I don't suppose it is possible for the game to be ILL-conceived, eh? That mistakes were made? That the "vision" was flawed or not even really fleshed out to any great extent at the start?

Well, ok, you're right here...to the rest of the universe, Dragons DON'T EXIST. They are fictional characters on a fictional game that came around due to the fact that someone thought that Dragons should have this set of attributes.

Dragons have EXISTED in FICTION for centuries, if not millennia. They are a part of many cultures' mythologies. They are a staple of stories. There's an established archetype for what the conception of a Dragon is. You do know what an archetype is, right? What happens when you co-opt an archetype and then proceed to debase it? Hmmm? Ask Jung; he wrote reams on this subject.

You're right again, Vesh is a biped. But, what makes you think that I don't play a dragon too? Or that I didn't play and defend my Dragon just as you are now.

Never made any assumption or claim that you didn't have one, did I? I don't see you defending your Dragon as I am now anywhere. I don't see you defending Dragons anywhere period. Your posture contains heavy biped-biased arguments ("you don't like being 'teh suck' compared to bipeds, PLAY A BIPED!", remember?). I point these facts out, by summing it up in a statement. It doesn't a genius with a PhD in Psychology to determine that peoples' attitudes about a subject are colored by their likes, dislikes, and experiences.

Yeah, I would put up with the constant harassment of my friends who also played. "Dragons suck", or something of the like. And just so its in here, Seroth was started 3.10.03. I knew exactly what I was starting with, the capabilities of dragons as opposed to bipeds. I liked the challenge of being not as good as my friends. But hey, not everyone likes a challenge, and I have nothing against them in that respect.

First, you couldn't have started on 3/10/03, because the game hadn't even entered closed beta yet (was 4/10/03). Second, you couldn't have POSSIBLY known what you were starting with then, because two weeks before 12/09/03 (ie, RELEASE DATE), the Dragon race/class was RADICALLY changed. Before that time, we were nothing more than Dragon-shaped bipeds. So. you'll have to pardon me if I call BS on that "record".

I like challenge, too. I expected to be weak. The devs told us that we would start out to be the weakest of characters, but would GROW to be the strongest through a significant effort, and when we finally made it, it was supposed to be a crowning achievement. Back in the first months, it WAS a challenge. It took LOTS of effort.

I'm still waiting for the payoff for that challenge and effort.

I didn't attack you in any way. None of that was directed at you in particular. It was meant to show that people aren't satisfied until they get their way. I know that as a fact. I work with 2nd and 3rd graders here.

Anytime anyone tells another person basically to "shut up" (and that is pretty much what you said), I take it personally. You don't have to specifically name people to slap them in the face and insult them. Case in point^^.

You're ******** right about people who aren't satisfied until they get something they want. ESPECIALLY when they PAY FOR IT. ESPECIALLY when they are TOLD they are to get it, and have it taken away or never delivered.

But I suppose you teach 2nd and 3rd graders the finer points of lying, promising things to others and breaking them, et cetera, ad nauseum, right? You probably should; that's life.

So is bitching and complaining when on the receiving end of such treatment.

Get used to it, 'cause it ain't gonna go away.

[Vesh]

First, you're right, Im a year ahead of myself. Got me there.

Second, "The devs told us that we would start out to be the weakest of characters" was my point in knowing what you started out with.

Unless you are understood to be speaking directly at them: "You don't have to specifically name people to slap them in the face and insult them."

And finally, Im done with Horizons. It was fun and all, but with the constant arguing that still goes on, and the 12.95 a month, while at college, its just not working.

So, Pharcellus, you win. Go and do whatever it is that Dragons do when they win an arguement.

[Goriax]

There is no tiered version of the corridors. So if you built a 4-way intersection at the beginning, you would not upgrade it.

I somehow missed this response before.

Thanks!

[Theolaerynn]

Any word when these will hit Blight? Just because I am saving my plot for the Chaos server doesn't mean I can't help build someone elses on Blight[:D]

[zordrak]

Frankly, I like what I see so far on lair crafting. I hope even though currently a hatchling I get a chance to own a lair.

As for some of the comments earlier, sometimes it helps to try and provide a solution to a problem rather then just complaining about it. So, here is what I propose on the matter.

Leave dragoncrafter and lairshaper as is. Stat wise they use skills that likely have a range of stats that adjust them, so very little should be changed there.

Dragon scalecrafter. Higher Str/Dex stat wise, scalecrafting at 9/level.

Dragon Crystal Shaper. More power/focus stat wise, crystal shaping at 9/level.

Maybe have a dragon spellcrafter school with a 9 skill in spellcrafting.

Smelting, gemworking, stoneworking essence shaping, mining, quarrying, and essence harvesting. Either divide these up among the above classes, or split them among another class or two.

Thats my proposal on that matter. That accounts for the craft quests every ten levels, assuming each skill gets a quest every ten levels for an effective +1/lvl increase. As I'm still playing as a hatchling though, other things should be taken into account, such as how the stats gained at adult and ancient levels affect these and the like. This of course is open to suggestions.

[Dragoniade]

Frankly, I like what I see so far on lair crafting. I hope even though currently a hatchling I get a chance to own a lair.

As for some of the comments earlier, sometimes it helps to try and provide a solution to a problem rather then just complaining about it. So, here is what I propose on the matter.

Leave dragoncrafter and lairshaper as is. Stat wise they use skills that likely have a range of stats that adjust them, so very little should be changed there.

Dragon scalecrafter. Higher Str/Dex stat wise, scalecrafting at 9/level.

Dragon Crystal Shaper. More power/focus stat wise, crystal shaping at 9/level.

Maybe have a dragon spellcrafter school with a 9 skill in spellcrafting.

Smelting, gemworking, stoneworking essence shaping, mining, quarrying, and essence harvesting. Either divide these up among the above classes, or split them among another class or two.

Thats my proposal on that matter. That accounts for the craft quests every ten levels, assuming each skill gets a quest every ten levels for an effective +1/lvl increase. As I'm still playing as a hatchling though, other things should be taken into account, such as how the stats gained at adult and ancient levels affect these and the like. This of course is open to suggestions.

That does make sense. Speaking of skill distribution, gemcrafting should be moved to Lairshapping for the +9 increse. Considering they're useless except for 2 items (claws and pack) for the dragoncrafter school, it would make more sense to move them to lairshapping, with all the cristal and gem structues.

[Pharcellus]

As for some of the comments earlier, sometimes it helps to try and provide a solution to a problem rather then just complaining about it. So, here is what I propose on the matter.

Many suggestions for solutions have already been provided at least once over the last two years, if not multiple times, including ones you've posted here. Thus, most of us are not "just complaining about it". However, it is nice to see the suggestions echoed again. Maybe we will eventually get some public response on the matter soon.

[zordrak]

Aye, I've just started reading these boards recently, so I could bwe wrong on things. What it seems like to me though, Tulg may want to consider hiring someone for the purpouse of reading these boards, act as a liason between the dev team and the customers, and help keep us informed.

Obviously the dev team can't do everything at once. It would be nice though to know what the dev team has planned, what they think of new ideas that are posted on the boards, and if possible a rough estimate of when things will be implemented.

[Tzaphnil]

Just wondering if there has been any new news on lairs from the Devs. Any idea on when the lair Auctions will start or when they will make it out of internal testing and onto Blight and the Live shards? The last I hard was the preview on the 6th, then the note on theBlight patch introducing Crystalshaping and Lairshaping techniques that made its way in on the 18th.[:)]
I was happy to see that the Crystalshaping and Lairshaping techniques made it to Blight, which makes it look like Lairs are not too far away from making their opening on Blight, but since I do not get onto IRC, the only info I get is from the boards. [:P]