May I trouble everyone to read this please ? Its not very long, I promise.

[Ivy]

Back when this game went gold, and the first hatchling cracked his eggshell, we all began dreaming about beeing ancient someday. Many of us loaded offline versions of the game and textured an ancient model, and probably even spend many many hours flying around with just for the pure joy of it.

Its been things like that, that made us stay with the game even though it most obviously had a few problems. Its been things like that, that kept us waiting and waiting for literally years until we hadwhat we were supposed to have at launch.Its been things like that, that made us stay with a game that went a little to close to "going down".

And now, after literally years of waiting for this very moment, you make ancients almost assmall as adults. It feels a bit like cutting us in half, just as we grasped to achieve what we dreamed of.

Please rethink.

[Cobal]

Amen

[Takora Drakan]

well spoken scaled sister! [:)]

(Ps.: you can download the old ancient model in guarans thread, its much better than the new)

[Ivy]

downloading the old model without it beeing integrated in the game is nothing more then an illusion. I rather see myself just like everyone else sees me.

[StormSpirit]

I feel exactly the same way myself. From the first day I made my way to Dralk, and stumbled upon the Ancient in his cave, I was in awe...........One day, I could be like this!! I worked hard, levelling my dragons, struggled through the (then) very steep learning curve of the game - 99% of the time solo as I hadnt then met my fiance - ground out level after level over the year + that Ive played.............all the time thinking and dreaming of the day I would ascend. That day then came, just over a week ago.......When the lightball cleared, I stood there - and cried.

I don't really care about the stats gained/lost/whatever - although I do fully understand those who think of nothing else. I play for the enjoyment of being a dragon, for the sheer *beauty* of the beast I am playing. It's my escape route from my real life problems, so whether I have x more armour, or x more strength etc, doesnt really worry me. Visuals really concern me a lot more, as they are what I *see*. Visuals, and how I *feel* about my dragon are why Ive levelled so many to 50+, then realised they are not quite *right*, so scrapped and started all over again, constantly striving for my perfect dragon. It's a group of pixels on a screen, I know - but that group of pixels has kept me alive at times, and therefore means a lot more to me than perhaps to someone who makes a char with no other thought than getting it high level and being able to kill everything ingame.

To some - or maybe most - it's a minor thing, as long as they have extra strength, armour, etc, in other words can kill stuff quicker and better - to be more like a biped, maybe......they are happy (or will continue to let the world and his dog know about how unhappy they are, if all doesnt fit their ideal of how it *should* be). I however, just want that awe back. I want to look at my Ancient and go "Wow, I did it! I am just like Semenath and Valkoth now :D " I want to feel proud of my beautiful dragon. Not this, not the gut-wrenching let-down I felt, and still feel, when I look at her. Not this knowing of what was, and now isn't, what's been dangled before us then snatched away. Yes, Ive applied the old model files, but I feel CHEATED. Yes, I see the old ancient when I look at my dragon, but I KNOW no one else sees what I see, and that's just not right, or FAIR, goddamnit. I know everyone else who isnt using those files (which lets face it, will be everyone other than other Ancients), just see's something that will make them just shrug and think "Oh, I wonder if that's an Ancient or not, can't tell" (or not really think or care anything at all). WHY SHOULD WE HAVE TO APPLY FILES NO ONE ELSE CAN SEE, JUST TO LOOK HOW WE WERE PROMISED FOR SO LONG??

I don't really log in much, now. There's nothing to do on my Ancient, no more levelling only just more mindless grind for cash. I don't even have the beauty to look at, just the disappointment and angerevery time I look at her. She is still the same lovely creature, but I feel I've let her down (maybe other dragon lovers can understand that, bipeds will just think "Stupid cow, get a life, it's just a game"). I have a young helian whom I know would look truly beautiful as an Ancient - but what's the point in levelling her, really?

Sorry for the long post, didn't intend to type so much. It's just how I feel, and have kept quiet till now, but now I felt it had to be said.

[Mirsathia]

And, Devs, if you read this, please keep in mind that this is the (VERY) vocal minority.

90% of us have normal eyesight and CAN very easily see the difference between Adult and Ancient.

Not to mention the creeping feeling that, as ancient, I can never pull the camera out enough to see the surroundings to my comfort. :P

I'm tired of all of this whining over nothing. I mean, really.


~Mirsathia

[Cobal]

And, Devs, if you read this, please keep in mind that this is the (VERY) vocal minority.

Wrong!
I have on unity not met ONE person who likes this change.
The masses want the old ancient models back.
As far as I know you are the only one that thinks the smaller size and the ugly new model is better.

90% of us have normal eyesight and CAN very easily see the difference between Adult and Ancient.

Yeah, IF you stand IN an adult model you will see the head sticking out a wee bit.
But thats only because the gave the new model a very silly looking swan neck.
The new model is completely out of proportion.

I'm tired of all of this whining over nothing. I mean, really.

Thats just your opinion.
The majority feels this is very much something.
Calling it whining over nothing, bah. They showed us the old model for a looooong time and at the last moment take it away.

Take your trolling elsewhere.

[Theolaerynn]

What AE seems to misunderstand is that it is not game mechanics or design that truely makes a game, it is the feeling one gets from playing it.

That feeling may be derived from community, or character customizations, or many other things including the relationship with the games developers. Usually it is a combination of factors.

For myself, the major factor is how I feel about my Dragon. Put simply, I play Horizons because of Mydnite. How he looks, how he moves, his abilities, his... well, Dragon-ness. He feels right to me, like a Dragon should.

At least, he does as an Adult. He almost feels right for an Ancient, but the only way I could get as close as I have has been to use the Old model over-ride. And the only reason that comes anywhere close, as far off as that actually remains, is due to the fact that all my friends have implemented it too. And most of them are Bi-Peds.

Also you must factor in the sense of achievement. Most of us have worked our butts off to become Ancient, with a fair number of us struggling along with AE from the day the game went live or even before. I have been playing for a bit over two years now, and I am very proud of the accomplishments I have made. Mydnite is a strong and fierce fighter, his power unquestionable. Unfortunately I cannot say the same for his stature, as the key difference comes down to having a neck like a giraffe by default.

AE needs to understand that it isn't simply a matter of mechanics, it is an emotional investment they promised us intentionally or otherwise. You cannot dangle a fat juicy Gnome in front of someone for two years and then switch it for a tough old Dwarf at the last second, and expect it to go over well.

In fact the whole changing of the models thing has gone over as well as a fart in Church, and we are stuck with the smell.

[Theolaerynn]

90% of us have normal eyesight and CAN very easily see the difference between Adult and Ancient.

95% of all statistics are made up.

[Mirsathia]

And, Devs, if you read this, please keep in mind that this is the (VERY) vocal minority.

Wrong!
I have on unity not met ONE person who likes this change.
The masses want the old ancient models back.
As far as I know you are the only one that thinks the smaller size and the ugly new model is better.


90% of us have normal eyesight and CAN very easily see the difference between Adult and Ancient.

Yeah, IF you stand IN an adult model you will see the head sticking out a wee bit.
But thats only because the gave the new model a very silly looking swan neck.
The new model is completely out of proportion.


I'm tired of all of this whining over nothing. I mean, really.

Thats just your opinion.
The majority feels this is very much something.
Calling it whining over nothing, bah. They showed us the old model for a looooong time and at the last moment take it away.

Take your trolling elsewhere.

Wow. So very not true, it makes me weep.

Unity does NOT equal the majority of dragon players. Not by far. On Chaos, there are a lot more satisfied players. The problem is, is that the vast majority of them (of all players, truly) do NOT choose to post on the boards. Therefore, the minority of people who post on the boards are players with very big mouths. No insult intended - I'm here too, aren't I? ;D Either way, my point is - people complaining on the boards is no show of force.

I'd suggest seeing if Tulga can put up a poll in the login screen for the Horizons webpages, perhaps, to see who's satisfied and who isn't. That, for instance, would be much more accurate.

Second of all.... the proportions on the 'old' and 'new' models are exactly the same, just scaled down. I still have a long neck and a horrible tiny head. The ONLY two head models that still fit properly are that floppy-looking one with the big horns (the one that looks obscenely huge on hatchlings), and the blunt-noded one that, as ancient, reminds one of a Tyrannosaur. It was true on the old models, it's still true on the new.

Last, I just screenshotted myself beside (not INside) Gerix on top of the Kion vault. Observe:

DeviantArt Scrap

(since I don't know how to actually post images on here - pardons for the link)

If you REALLY can't tell which is which, other than 'a bit longer neck', then you MUST be blind, frankly. Yes, that IS the new model that I'm using.

*Edit* Stupid DevArt.

~Mirsathia

[Ivy]

I think you missed the point Mirsathia. Its not about beeing able to tell who is ancient and who is not while standing next to an adult . Its about beeing able to tell easily while beeing the only dragon in a crowd for excample. Its not questioned that there is a way of telling who is ancient and not in a crowd of adult and ancient dragons.

[Cobal]

The problem is, is that the vast majority of them (of all players, truly) do NOT choose to post on the boards.

You mistakenly assume that all those NOT posting on the boards are happy with this change, this is not so.
Each and every player I spoke to is unhappy with the change.
I highly doubt that this is the other way around on Chaos.

I think it is fair to assume that the people that do post on the boards are a cross section of total player base.
So if the majority of players on boardsare againsta certain change it is very good chance that the majority of all players do not like the change.

The proportions of the new model are not the same btw.
The old ancient model has, relativly, a shorter neck and a longer tail.
It looks much more balanced.

[Dragoniade]

And, Devs, if you read this, please keep in mind that this is the (VERY) vocal minority.

90% of us have normal eyesight and CAN very easily see the difference between Adult and Ancient.

Not to mention the creeping feeling that, as ancient, I can never pull the camera out enough to see the surroundings to my comfort. [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]

I'm tired of all of this whining over nothing. I mean, really.

And it's another minority who whined and got their voice hearded. Most of the dragon I spoke off are really dissapointed about the ARoP rewards and the Size nerf.. It's not because you consider dragon to be mindless bird that everyone should suffer for it. You like being small and weak, fine with you. A lot don't.

We're all tired too of having to suffer the nerf bad because a minority of biped whine at us for no reason. And, lets throws more number: 90% of those who are fine with the size reduction aren't playing dragon or teaming with dragons, because they would have realize the reason (better grouping) is better with the old model than the new one.

[Bhalzamon]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Mirsathia wrote: 90% of us have normal eyesight and CAN very easily see the difference between Adult and Ancient.95% of all statistics are made up.

lol . Im one of those who have been waiting literally (kinda)years for things (like my dam Banshee since I got 100 sprt on shadow ... 1st one there to get it (lol cant help bein modest here to help reinforce my point) and the other epics, and cap raise ... etc). Knowing that I have a biped view of things I think its safe for me to state an opinion on the ancient dragon size issue. Im inclined to agree with the size issue, being that I think they are too small. I have a hard time telling the difference between adults and ancients.

[imported_tjl]

I'm sorry, but you guys are way bigger. Still almost 2x the size of an adult.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

well I'm on dragon chat on Order almost every night, and so maybe our numbers will seem more important than Unities - since you feel they can be thrown out.

I've not heard a single dragon express happiness with the smaller size. Not a single one.

Every one of them who speaks up when the topic arises, wishes it was the old size.

Those who dont' speak up period - their voice can't be counted anywhere. So we can't assume they do, or do not like it.

But of those who speak up, here and on Order - you are the only dragon who thinks its better I've seen to date.

And its not even the size that is the biggest issue here, its the lack of explanation by the devs for this surprise nerf, no matter how much we've begged for something to asuage our feelings of being the bastard stepchild. THAT is what most are hurt and disappointed over, even more so than the surprise "new Ancient size".

If we had ever gotten a straight forward, clear, technical answer on why the old Model wasn't working in the game engine, then I'm pretty sure you'd see many dragons going "ok, I understand now, wish it wasn't so, but I can see why"

All we've gotten is an unpaid intern saying it was from biped whining, and DB saying that from "all the customer feedback we did this" when he actually, per a member of Blight and the Private Cusotmer Feedback team - he gathered no feedback on it.

When I get home otnight I"ll post a screenie I took of a recently ascended ANcient dragon.

You can barely tell the difference in size, even close up - he's only a head taller than an Adult. A *Single head* taller.

So yea, if you maxxed out the size on your adult dragon you can tell easily, but if you went for variety and did something else, say to fit your own view of how you wanted your dragon, then no - you just got gimped.

From a short distance away, noone would be able to tell who was adult and who was ancient in this shot. IN fact I mistook another Adult for Ancient because he was so close to the Ancient's size (and slightly taller than me, I'm at 3/4 of the adult scale), but no, he was a regular adult at full size. The Ancient was Small.

Very sad.

(screenie to come later from home)

[Kitimandiri]

Personally I have to pause a second to check if a dragon is ancient or adult with the new model. I, like many other people here, was is in awe of the old ancient model when they first came out, and I couldn't wait to be that size.

I have heard a lot of dragons talking about dragon multiclassing and more dragon schools. Any work in that area would require a massive project for tulga. They just went throught a massive project for ARoP and are completing Lairshaping. I was a more than a little suprised at how quickly some people completed ARoP then immediately started talking about and even arguing over things like dragon multiclassing.

I never expected the devs to create anything after lairs that just dragons can use. I can't wait to see what there next big project is, I hope its something everyone in istaria can enjoy.

I feel like the whole experience of ARoP was lessened by the size reduction. I still really enjoyed it, but the reduction really bothers me. It seems weird to put all that work into it and then take a shortcut by reducing the model size. Please just finish the job right, make the old ancient models work.

Aamer said something in regards to a post Fireclaw made about multiclassing, about when the promises to dragons have been kept that rightfully they should move on, and I completely agree with Aamer. I just wish those promises were kept properly.

--Kitimandiri

PS. /drool over lairs...

[Theolaerynn]

I remember teleporting into the Rift and seeing another Dragon there, and asking him if he wanted to group and work on it together. When he said that he had already Ascended as was just there to help folks out, I took a good look and then said 'Oh, right, long neck'. We had a bit of a chuckle over it, but it was a sad sort of chuckle.

We should not be reduced to checking Neck lengths to see who is Ancient. Of course, this discussion should not be happening at all, the Devs should have simply left the old models in.

[Atolmyth]

I remember teleporting into the Rift and seeing another Dragon there, and asking him if he wanted to group and work on it together. When he said that he had already Ascended as was just there to help folks out, I took a good look and then said 'Oh, right, long neck'. We had a bit of a chuckle over it, but it was a sad sort of chuckle.

You know, that's near exactly the same scenario I experienced a few days ago. I was just there to help someone and I joined a group when one of the ancients said "Lead Azon' to the Sleeper". I thought he was just leading me to where the majority of the group was but when I found out that the adult had spoken to him already I realized he was treating me as if I hadn't done the ARoP and I was quite offended. Being as I was a bit befuddled I asked "Why do you want me to talk to the Sleeper?"I didn't get any answer, he simply insisted that I go. "What? Have I shrunk or what?" I exclaimed. He didn't pick up on that either. Eventually I just stated bluntly, "I've done the ARoP." That finally sunk in as he responded with a simple "Oh sorry. ^^;"

Also I should say that I am at the maximum size the slider would allow, how could he not see I was the same size? Apparently it wasn't just him but the entire group didn't correct him so I assume they couldn't tell either. Eventually I just shrugged it off and thought 'oh it must be my chosencolour-scheme or something'.

Yesterday at the Island of Fire further mistaken identities occured. This biped needed a res' and his buddy trudged over to me and asked "Are you Ancient?" .................................................. .............................

These are situations I don't want to have to face continuously...

[Dragoniade]

yeah. One of the issue with the size reduction, is that the smallest ancient is as big as the bigest adult, except for a longer neck.