Lairshaping scales

[Ulkesh]

ulkesh:

find an open hotkey and right-click, then select "edit hotkey"
from the first pull-down menu, find "equip item"
you can actually select all items at once and drag them all over as a set
it's great...
hotkeys in HZ are very wonderful.
i highly recommend going through all the options in the hotkey editor just to see what you can do.

oooh, ive used it to make /select hotkeys and loot and such, but never thought about this. thanks alot Dorrin, should make things easier.

[Death-knell]

Tympest, that is a bug and will be fixed very soon. All of the final Lairshaping products will use Lairshaping skill instead of what they are assigned now.

Thats good to hear. I was a little worried bout that one.

Amon, why was lairshaping made so overcomplicated? Has the logistics of this design been considered?

What I mean is.....I have an enchanter, construction is
Harvest essense, process into orbs then into construction units and put in my disk until I get a full load. Then I apply at construction site. I only need 1 storage device (my cargo disk). Other construction is done very much like the above.

Now a lairshaper harvests, process to basic unit(bar/brick/orb/gem). But then he has to store that because there is no such thing as a single resource construction item. Not to mention having to go to multiple resourde fields. I looked at the flowchart in another post and noticed there was at least one construction unit that the final combine involved 4 seperate resources which also required multiple resources to make. Nevermind the extreme amount of extra time it requires to do all those combinations and harvest the extra resources. But how are we suppose to store all those resources while we're making all the other. this games storage is way too poor to introduce a nightmare like above. Silo's hold 1 type of item and disks can hold multiple items but the bulk is way too restrictive. Are lair storage containers going to be able to hold more then 1 type of item? If not tulga is seriously screwing lairshapers. They make 4 times the effort for a quarter the result.

Looking over lairshaping I would say it was designed by the same person who thought hoard leakage was a good idea!

[Illi]

I kind of have to agree with this. It doesn't look like much thought was put into the fact that most of us don't have the access to biped silos. And if we did, depending on the location of that silo in relation to where our lair is located, this could present quite an issue. There is no other construction class in game that has to construct such a complex master resource. And the storage systems as they are currently don't support this type of complexity. I've heard everything that most have to say about this. "Use your vault." that's the most limited storage in game, and would work abut as well as a low tier cargo disk. "Get to know some bipeds." Another annoying way to push biped/dragon reliance. "buy a lair close to all resource fields". Sure......whatever you say. Not saying that I want them to go back to the drawing board but, wow......at that rate we'll be working on our lair for an entire year.

[AmonGwareth]

A lot of thought was put into lairshaping. Construction is boring. Everyone knows that. So we tried to add some variety into it to make it more interesting. You have more levels of products and more opportunities to help each other.

Yes, you don't have access to biped silos. But you will be able to build your own lair silos. Soon enough there will be plenty of them around.

As far as the time it takes to build a lair, it depends on what you choose or if you decide to do it by yourself. Yes, depending upon your chamber choices it may take you a year. But then, the same is true of a biped plot. It all comes down to choices and we want to give dragons as many as possible.

There is no other construction class in game that has to construct such a complex master resource.

This is true. But then, lairshaping is not specific to a type of material like biped construction schools. So the comparison breaks down.

And the storage systems as they are currently don't support this type of complexity. I've heard everything that most have to say about this. "Use your vault." that's the most limited storage in game, and would work abut as well as a low tier cargo disk. "Get to know some bipeds."

Silos still work just fine. Intermediate resources have a bulk of 8 just like other processed resources so they fit into silos just fine. You may need more than one silo to handle it, but that is what silos are for. Holding processed resources.

I made a concious choice for Dragon Lair Silos to have a lower construction requirement than regular chambers (by 50%) to allow for them to be build more easily and quickly.

[Theolaerynn]

What are the chances that Dragons will get to contribute to serverwide crafting events, other than as flying cargo disks? I mean, I got to make marble bricks for the Stone Cenotaph and all, but that isn't quite what I had in mind [:P]

Will there be new event/community structures of some kind that require both Bi-Ped and Dragon construction?

[AmonGwareth]

That is a definite possibility now that Dragons will have construction resources.

[Illi]

A lot of thought was put into lairshaping. Construction is boring. Everyone knows that. So we tried to add some variety into it to make it more interesting. You have more levels of products and more opportunities to help each other.

Yes, you don't have access to biped silos. But you will be able to build your own lair silos. Soon enough there will be plenty of them around.

As far as the time it takes to build a lair, it depends on what you choose or if you decide to do it by yourself. Yes, depending upon your chamber choices it may take you a year. But then, the same is true of a biped plot. It all comes down to choices and we want to give dragons as many as possible.

There is no other construction class in game that has to construct such a complex master resource.

This is true. But then, lairshaping is not specific to a type of material like biped construction schools. So the comparison breaks down.

And the storage systems as they are currently don't support this type of complexity. I've heard everything that most have to say about this. "Use your vault." that's the most limited storage in game, and would work abut as well as a low tier cargo disk. "Get to know some bipeds."

Silos still work just fine. Intermediate resources have a bulk of 8 just like other processed resources so they fit into silos just fine. You may need more than one silo to handle it, but that is what silos are for. Holding processed resources.

I made a concious choice for Dragon Lair Silos to have a lower construction requirement than regular chambers (by 50%) to allow for them to be build more easily and quickly.

Thank you for your reply Amon. I am more at ease to know that lair silos won't be as tedious as some biped silos, and that this may be the answer I need for where i'll store my resources.

I did not mean, in my post, that I would not give the school a chance. Of course I will and whatever it takes I will build my lair. But Death-Knell did point out some intersting issues that a few of us have thought of. I do look forward to building it, though the storage issue had me a bit on edge.

[AmonGwareth]

Ah, please note that I did not say they would be easier than Biped Silos. I said they would be easier than other Lair chambers. [:)]

[Illi]

Anyone ever tell you that you're rather cryptic?[:P]

[Dragoniade]

A lot of thought was put into lairshaping. Construction is boring. Everyone knows that. So we tried to add some variety into it to make it more interesting. You have more levels of products and more opportunities to help each other.

So it is moving left and right, for nothing. Are Dragon construction still follow the 15:1 ratio? Do they still take 2:1 to apply? If so, sorry Amon, but you DEVs shot yourselves in the foot again.

So what? We're going to have to do 3-4 fields to craft something that, when applied, will reward us with 2 final unit sat optimal?
Sorry, but I cal this even more boring than normal crafting. Crafting should be more than just 'gather', travel, travel travel, apply.

Yes, you don't have access to biped silos. But you will be able to build your own lair silos. Soon enough there will be plenty of them around.

As far as the time it takes to build a lair, it depends on what you choose or if you decide to do it by yourself. Yes, depending upon your chamber choices it may take you a year. But then, the same is true of a biped plot. It all comes down to choices and we want to give dragons as many as possible.

Hmm. So short sighted. Does dragon silos (it shouldn't even be called silos) can hold more than one item? Considering than dragon Construction unit now take 3-4 ressources, Silos should reflect that status. Otherwise, it's just a big NERF to crafting. Lets piss dragon even more by giving stuff more difficult without any bonus to that effort. Lets throw them some hollow, phantom bone for them to knaw.

This is true. But then, lairshaping is not specific to a type of material like biped construction schools. So the comparison breaks down.


Silos still work just fine. Intermediate resources have a bulk of 8 just like other processed resources so they fit into silos just fine. You may need more than one silo to handle it, but that is what silos are for. Holding processed resources.

I made a concious choice for Dragon Lair Silos to have a lower construction requirement than regular chambers (by 50%) to allow for them to be build more easily and quickly.

Do they also have a lower foot print or a bigger storage? Because, well, you only have thought about half the problem. A biped siloes take like 6-8 time less TYPE of ressource to build. A silo can only hold ONE type. So what's the point of having biggers siloes if you need to build 8 instead of 2? Sorry, be WE lose again.

You triple the requirement, you triple everything else? Is is so difficult to follow? What is it with you DEV to make everything EXPONENTIAL with dragon? Exponential hoard, exponential construction now. This is getting really sick.

Unless I'm missing something, please revise storage and ressource processing on dragon's structure. And release a cargo disk for dragon AT THE SAME TIME as lairs are released. One that can carry as many ressource required for a single unit, at full capacity. A biped can craft 10 units with a full cargo disk or so in a single pass. A dragon should be able to do the same!

[Guaran]

We dont really know yet how it's going to be until we see it.

As far as cargo disks go, usefulness of existing ones we will see once we know the bulks of the finished materials.

As far as silos go, Even biped silos requiretoo many resources if you ask me.

For lairs, first thing to do is build a few tier 1 silos. then add on build more rooms then go back and add larger silos later, assuming the footprints are compatible.

[Death-knell]

Amon, I understand what your saying. I just don't see how you can think its more fun to make more trips, especially when storage is so one dimensional.

And according to the taste released there are building units that are 20 AT OPTIMAL, imagine how many trips that'll be.

And to re-iterate another, why do things have to be so much harder for dragons. Isn't it bad enough that lairs are 2 years post release? How bout cutting us some slack for once?

[Dragoniade]

We dont really know yet how it's going to be until we see it.

As far as cargo disks go, usefulness of existing ones we will see once we know the bulks of the finished materials.

As far as silos go, Even biped silos require too many resources if you ask me.

For lairs, first thing to do is build a few tier 1 silos. then add on build more rooms then go back and add larger silos later, assuming the footprints are compatible.

Amon already specified ressource were 8 per units and required 20 at optimal. UNLESS construction units break even much the mass conservation rule that the biped already break, I don't see how a construction units is going to weight less than 150 per unit.

Still about the cargo disk, what about high lair? What about us requiring 4 ressources to build 1 unit? It's metal nerf all over again. Are those ressource close to each others, or to the 4 corners of Istaria? If it's the last one, forget cargo disk. You can't recall with them, you can't walk with them (I don't see walking from western Dalimon to Chiconis to the Death Pool to craft 2 mere units as 'fun').

Also, I sure wish lair 'silos' are going to be easier to put back than it is to deconstruct and rebuild biped silos.
It was already a pain to replace another silo in 2D when they are all aligned side by side, now imagine if we have to align those cave in 3D. I simple 'Upgrade' button should have been introduced, like it has beed discussed a LONG time ago before the merge.

Amon, I understand what your saying. I just don't see how you can think its more fun to make more trips, especially when storage is so one dimensional.

And according to the taste released there are building units that are 20 AT OPTIMAL, imagine how many trips that'll be.

And to re-iterate another, why do things have to be so much harder for dragons. Isn't it bad enough that lairs are 2 years post release? How bout cutting us some slack for once?

I don't understand either.
Memory leaks haven't been fixed.
Portal Lag still exist.
Recall leak still exist.
Walking 10 Km with a cargo disk behind me isn't my definition of 'fun'.

It will take age before we will be able to see the minimal reward. If they wanted to make it more 'fun', here some suggestion:

Instead of having to use 3-4 different ressource to build a single unit, have instead 3-4 different PIECES made of the same ressource.

Give experience for EVERYTHING. Right now, we'll be kitty littering over and over to get the ressource. Give something better from gattering. What about BONUS hoard instead of bonus salt rock? Give some reward to gathering.
* You have gathered 8 uncut Turquoises.
* You have gathered 4 uncut Turquoises.
* You have gathered 7 uncut Turquoises.
* You have gathered 1 Majestic Turquoise.

At least, gathering become a bit less the hit button, go grab a book type of activity. And add an health bar over those nodes too.

What about 'processing Cargo disk'? Some sort of cargo disk that work like a machine for those field without a machine? Or what about putting public plot on all fields and have players build machines as they discover them?

Crafting could be fun. But fun isn't gathering while reading a book, walk back and try to find some storage. Head to another field, gather more, head back where the storage was and try to find more room. Head back and gather a 3rd ressource. Head back then START processing the final product.

You end up doing work with NO experience whatsoever for 95%. At least adventuring, for every monster you kill, for every action you take on a monster, you get something.

Crafting need some changes, and it's not only for the Lair Shapping school. But with this issues, it's not by going from an empty and tasteless school like Dragon Crafter (aka Blacksmith) to a complexe and aggravating (like alchemist) that Dragon are going to be more 'fun'. Bulk AND quantities should be seperated, not merged together.

Some people like to feel the reward of their action. So far, I don't see it anytime soon.

[Guaran]

8 and 20 units at optimal? so in comparison to a marble keystone that takes 20 marble bricks (40 slabs), and then takes 2 keys to place 1 unit on the structure at optimal (80 slabs at optimal), this thing the resource takes 20 bricks to make at optimal (sounds like a standard keystone) but then takes 8 keystones to place 1 unit? Thats 4 times the resources in comparison.

I suppose depending on the number required, it would even out. A typical t5 structure (silo or crafting shack) would need 60 or 80 marble keys (placed), or 120 or 160 of the marble keys to be crafted. (they place 2:1 at optimal). Thats 2400 bricks(4800 slabs), or 3200 bricks (6400 marble slabs).

That of course is just 1 resource, theres also lower tier resources needed, as well as others like wood, metal, etc.

Once we can try designinga lair and see what the resource requirements are we can make the other half of the comparison.

[Illi]

Well, after finally getting the lairshaping V tech, I have used Kepesk's idea for lairshaping scales and have the two strength sets completed now.

With the Quarry, stoneworking, lairshaping scales I have 1126 stoneworking, and am 2:1 on Marble.

With the Mining, Smelting, Lairshaping set I have 1134 smelting and am 2:1 on mithril.

The sets have also allowed me to delve farther into laziness, by creating 5 to 6 "addon" scales for scalecraft(since I had yet to create a tier V set of scalecraft scales). These scales are single teched, and bring me close to optimal on the hardest scale w/triple techs.

Since I'd also made the essence harvest, essence shaping, transmutation scales, I got the bright idea to do the same with spellcraft scales, creating 5 to 6 "addons", single teched with spellcraft V. It allowed me to triple tech all dragon spells.

So, thanks to Kepesk for this idea, I'd still be racking my brain for ieas on how to tech these if he hadn't posted.[:P]

[Dranar]

Well, I'm excited about Lairshaping, and it does sound like it will be hard... Easy enough for a group, but hard for an individual. Just like real building, a single person CAN do it, but it's hard.

As it stands now for a Biped structure... Most structures require resources from many different schools of construction. So a biped crafter would have to level up, to do it themselves, many different schools to reach the point they need. Each school is good for only ONE particular type of resource construction buildings.

We as dragons have an advantage over that, we have ONE school to make everything. So we SHOULD have that variety in our construction because of this. That is available to us.

For example, a Biped Mason should not need to use Lumber or Cloth since he gains no skill in those. We as dragons gain skill in many different things all in a single construction class now with lairworking. It would only seem natural we would actually make use of all these skills as well in the construction.

As it looks now biped construction is appearing to be somewhat easier, because doing a single Construction item is much more straightforward (Albeit boring too). So having combined resources like is planned with dragons sounds good to me. Though it'll make it very difficult for a single dragon to do their own work, a team of dragons can accomplish and build very quickly if each one is gathering and refining different resources... In fact, chances are good that it might go even quicker than biped building.

As I see it right now, it would look as if individuals will be hurt a little more by this system because of the wide variety needed. (Though making good use of silos and such will make a single person able to accomplish a fair amount, just taking more time). Though I think groups will profit all the more from it.

Plus those who can make it to be top crafters in the school will be more of a rareity too. :)

~Allon

[PJ]

Amon already specified ressource were 8 per units and required 20 at optimal. UNLESS construction units break even much the mass conservation rule that the biped already break, I don't see how a construction units is going to weight less than 150 per unit.

mass conservation rule?

[imported_Kepesk]

Well, after finally getting the lairshaping V tech, I have used Kepesk's idea for lairshaping scales and have the two strength sets completed now.

Haha, you beat me to it! I've been working my stripey rear off for two weeks, but still haven't managed to acquire either of the techs. Good to hear the sets are working well for ya though!

-Your friendly neighborhood stripey dragon

[Dragoniade]

mass conservation rule?

Biped construction unit already break that rule.
15*8 = 120 < 150

[PJ]

Er what rule? There's no rule that requires that. Bulk not change when resources are processed or items are made.

Conservation of mass doesn't apply for 2 reasons.

1.) Its bulk in Horizons, not mass. They aren't the same thing.

2.) Even if it was mass, when you process resources, some of the initial mass is discarded as waste.