The Real Issue

[Tokoz]

Back to the original topic (before it was locked). What can the community do when a player creates so much trouble, most of it with things that people don't want to have to send in logs?

Has anyone seen him in awhile? Did he leave the game? Did he catch a clue?

[Illi]

Well, myself and another player were discussing that very issue just last evening. No one has seen him or any of his alts online in almost 2 weeks now. But, that doesn't mean they're not there. They could have gone invis. and left all public channels, no idea on that one. But I would like to add something that needs to be said here.

Due to all the negativity of the last thread, all of the past entanglements with Ruina, and other people's interactions with him, I've become VERY suspicious of every new player coming on the server. It's gotten so bad that I've left the New Player Assistance channel, to avoid inadvertent contact with a "possible Ruina alt". I am so detatched from new players now, that I answer questions only, will not engage in RP with them in any form, and have even noticed myself being HIGHLY suspicious of new recruits to my OWN GUILD. To address the answering questions only deal, I belong to several chat channels, Market, Dragon, Order Alliance, Community. I answer questions in those channels only, and usually wait to see if SOMEONE ELSE will take the initiative to answer it first, if not, I reluctantly say something. I refuse to "meet" any of them face to face(or maw to maw, if you will), and reserve all my in person interactions for established players, guildmembers, and my mate(whom I'm married to IRL). I left New Player because I found that not many people are even in it, and for me to be seen in the channel list but refusing to say anything, looks negatively on the server. I left it shortly after interacting(in chat only, thankfully)with a new dryad. That dryad sent me tells every single day from that day on, which made me very suspicious and prompted me to go permanently invisible. To address the guild member issue, recently two new members were recruited into my guild. Both on the same day, both the same race, both named fairly similarly. For example, Neelah and Neenah are both Saris, and both names are similar. I was suspicious enough about it that I hawkeyed my guild chat for 40 minutes, until they started asking questions about the game, as they were new to it.

The point to the above statements? How sad is that? How sad is it, that not only do I get to BAR my children from a RATED "T" game, I get to live in permanent suspicion of every new player to grace our server?! I'm not the only one either. I know someone else who's a bit iffy on new player interaction, or even established player interaction for that matter, all from having met, and been harrassed by him. I've read in the last couple days, a goodbye post, from a person who said the players in Dragon chat were rude and unwilling to help them. That's not a usual characteristic of OUR Dragon channel, or Market, or any of them for that matter. But it seems to me it's becoming all the more prevalent, lately.

What can we do? Nothing really, hope that our logs work and they see fit to ban them. They make themselves outcasts with their behaviour, but I think we've seen that even that doesn't work for some.

[C`gan]

I think that the best solutions are:
1. Put the person on ignore (unless you're wanting logs to send in).
2. Put the person in your hidden category (unless you're willing to be baited so you can get logs to send in).
3. Send in harassment logs, particularly if they're private conversations. This does mean turning on the debug logs for those who don't know how to turn the log setting on and off and make sure the log file is renamed to something specific. Using the same name as is generated will cause it or another log to get accidentally deleted. I suggest using character_date.txt (For instance, cgan_102505.txt if I was sending in one today).

[imported_Frith-Rae]

Yes Illy, I know my guild and I were burned enough to where we did change our entire recruiting process (though we had been discussing it prior).

Sad to say I was already semi-paranoid just from other online experiences, anytime a new player comes around.

Ruina just made it doubly so. It gets to where everytime I get a tell from another player in game, I'm briefly anxious wondering 'Oh crap now what's happened?" :)

Ruina's not the first player like this on this game, but its definiltey been the worse, and certainly the most polarizing :), across the shard.

(however I do beleive that less than two weeks ago I got a tell from Neelah/Neerah saying 'hello' but said nothing else)

I don't have them on my friends list, or on ignore or hidden, so either way they could be online or offline and I wouldnt know without directly seeing them in a chat room or in person.

But C'gan has the right of it- if you're not wiling to report and turn in logs. Then you've got no leg to stand on when it comes to griping about someone.

And please note, you don't have to turn in your ENTIRE Chat log for the night. When I submitted mine, they were altered to remove other private conversations, irrelevant dragon chat, RP chat, etc. They only included all things relvent to the issue I was addressing.

So if anyone is thinking they dont want to submit because they don't want the devs seeing OTHER parts of their conversation, that doesn't seem to be the problem. Though when I DO submit an alterted log I tell them what i left out, a nd I keep one whole in case they want an unaltered version. I've only ever like done this twice, but was never requested to send in an unaltered version.

But yea, other than put them on ignore/hidden, warning others by passing the word if you find out the person has a reputation (and its not just you ...lol), submitting reports with logs - there isn't much we can do I don't think.

One of those "having to try and trust in the system..." situations.

[Illi]

Well, actually, I can tell when all of his "known" alts come on, because I have them on hidden. The system will notify me when they're on, and for almost 2 weeks, they've been out of game. Unless, as I said, they've gone invisible.

The only reason I don't put any of them on my actual ignore is to make sure I've got some logs to submit if i'm ever in the vicinity of anything they do that would be report worthy. But the frustration really goes beyond putting them on ignore. That really only goes so far, since anyone can make an alt, and be anonymous for a short time to bypass ignore features. It's very frustrating to be so suspicious of everyone now. I have no desire to actually meet new players, I stick to myself and a very small list of "trusted" established players. At least until I'm comfortable that whomever was just recruited or has recently joined Order, isn't Ruina. And lately, I've been more than suspicious about a couple of people. Like the dryad I mentioned. I'd helped them, answered alot of questions, and did what I could to help them acclimate(sp?). But when I began receiving tells, a couple of them addressing "dragon mating", bells, whistles, buzzers, whirring gizmos and red flags o plenty went flying up and I shut that down real quick. Interestingly, I have not seen that dryad logged in since the day I put them on hidden and left New Player. Since then I've become paranoid and gone totally invisible. To me, for the time being, being a true dragon hermit is easier than playing a game of "20 questions" with all new players, and being iffy with speaking with them. if they come to my guild, I can help them, but even that has become a real chore.

My mistake was made back in August, when I should have submitted my chat log from my issue with Ruina. Hind sight is 20/20. All we can do now is hope he just fades away and never materializes again, or that someone gets a log to submit.

[C`gan]

Illi, please don't let the suspicion win. Treat each character as a different person. IF the person ends up being someone you don't like or want to talk with, handle it then. That will keep the community strong, the Shard attractive, and the game fun. Harboring suspicion around every corner is very much like the McCarthy hearings of the 1950s. In the end, someone has to cause it to end after it goes too far and too many people are hurt. Better to stop it before then and before the community, Shard, and game are irreparably damaged.

[Telpeloci]

I haven't posted anything in either thread about this particular topic as I think it's ridiculous that people let someone bother them so easily, however, I do feel I have to make a request now. Please don't let one person make you suspicious of EVERYONE you don't know. It's hardly fair to new players. And being suspicious of a new player you helped out that is talking to you every day? Unless you have some particular reason to be suspicious, that fact alone is a completely ridiculous reason to be suspicious of them. Maybe they just thought they had made a new friend? Don't let one person ruin your fun. Use /ignore and if you see him/her/it, go somewhere else.

[awdz]

wish it were that easy... but once burned, twice shy...

i take folks at facevalue when i first meet them in roleplay, since i have no way of determining that they are something else, and obviously they want folks to treat them as they present or they would not act that way. however, i dotry to find out a little about folks before inviting them to guild (always have), which helps alleviate thesuspicions. even so, over a year ago we had to expel one person(that iinvited hadin) due to their excessively rude and disruptivebehavior after repeated warnings. there are no guarantees that people will always be as the first impression of them suggests.

i tend to avoid folks with negative names, even when they seem nice enough on the surface - i did catch the 'ruin' when i first saw that name and was leery of it, but was still lucky i did not get entrapped with later events. i believe most folks do put stock in their character names and roleplay accordingly.

my experience has been that the vast majority of istarians are well worth getting to know, and so i plow ahead as ever the optimist. hope to see you in istaria soon!

*beeps your nose, says 'TAG! you're IT!' and scampers off*

[Illi]

C'gan and Telpeloci, while I hear what you're saying, it's a bit late for that. I am not the only one who's retreated from public interaction due to this player. It's actually become almost shardwide. Most all of the established playerbase has dealt with him in some form or another. Most of the ones who've been here for the full run of the game, take it with a grain of salt. However, some of us, while old, can not do that. We have our own experiences in the game to protect. And it most certainly is not ridiculous to let this person get to us like they have. It is a very, very serious issue. Forced cyber, verbal abuse upon refusal of said cyber, is very serious. And left unchecked, this person will do more damage to the server than those of us retreating into the shadows. It's already started. He's caused more damage to people than most realize. So, giving into paranoia and refusal of new player interaction is really the mild thing to do. Why should I put myself at risk to be dragged into another unwanted situation, when I can still contribute, although in a cautious fashion? No, indeed, I have not turned my back on the population of Order, just turned off my availability to be hoaxed. Because, while it seems I can't be sure, it also seems as though that almost happened a second time but I got wise. The playerbase won't be hurt by my caution, they'll be hurt by not knowing who's preying on them. I'll watch from the shadows, I'll take my notes on who's who and how they are in the channels, then I'll interact. It's kept me from dealing with him so far, and will continue to. If he never resurfaces, things will go back to normal, and when I'm sure he's gone for good, I'll return to public view and New Player channel.


Edit: Oh by the way Tel, I did have a reason for shutting down interactions with that player I met in New Player. The tells started off as Hi's, and then escalated to trying to discuss RPed mating procedures of Dragons. Questions like: How do you mate? I think that's enough to shut it down.

[Telpeloci]

Edit: Oh by the way Tel, I did have a reason for shutting down interactions with that player I met in New Player. The tells started off as Hi's, and then escalated to trying to discuss RPed mating procedures of Dragons. Questions like: How do you mate? I think that's enough to shut it down.

Well, yes, that is definitely a good reason. I didn't mean to imply anything before, just the only reason you had given for being suspicious was that the person was talking to you daily. I suspected there was more to it.

Regarding the other issue, I still disagree, there is no reason to let this person get you riled up. I fail to see any reason whatsoever why /ignore doesn't take care of it. Once /ignored, the person can no longer contact you in any way...not through tells, not through emotes...nothing. Sure, they might make another character and start in again, but again, /ignore addresses it. That's the precise reason /ignore is there, and yet people fail to use it.

I'm not saying that I think this particular accused person should be allowed to stay in game. Far from it...however, you have been given a tool to address the problem, at least temporarily, so why let him/her ruin your good time?

[Tokoz]

I agree, Telpeloci. /ignore is the community's first line of defense.

New Player though has been almost completely shut down as a result of this. I've notice a serious decrease in all community based channels since this issue cropped up.

Again, I have yet to be directly affected, but it concerns me deeply. It is splintering a community that I've tried to do so much for.

And again, I ask that those of you that have been effected, even if it's just one off-color statement, please, please, please, send the log onto Tulga. Let all your friends that use the boards know. Have it announced in the community meeting and in the community channels, including marketplace, dragon, new player, and worldProjects.

There is a huge difference between protecting family and friends and a personal attack.

Also, post here if the person has been seen at all. TG does not report the results of an investigation. It's quite possible that the problem has already been addressed. The longer this person is away, the more all of us can relax.

[Telpeloci]

TG does not report the results of an investigation. It's quite possible that the problem has already been addressed. The longer this person is away, the more all of us can relax.

You know, all MMO's I know of use that same policy, however, I think in special cases such as this one, it would be nice if they'd let us know whether it has been taken care of or not. It's not exactly the more commonly seen type of disruption, and it'd be great if we could just get things back to normal at this point.

[Tokoz]

*nod.

But the policy is the way it is because lawyers determined that that is how it should be.

If I was TG though, I might find it wise to take the account information and do an internet lookup for sex offenders. They don't need to tell us what they find, they don't need to tell us who they canned. They just need to say it's safe again. :)

[Tokoz]

Just in the way of caution if you're having your kids play at all. Make a friends list for them that includes friends and family, set them to invisible to all, and make it so they only receive tells from people on their friends list.

I'm trying to get information on this, but so far I haven't gotten anything.

[Telpeloci]

Bah, forget the lawyers. There's no legal issue that prevents them from a simple "The issue has been dealt with" or "We're still looking into it". It would harm noone and do much to return the community back to a more normal state.

[Bori Grimbattle]

As an outsider looking in let me make a few observations here.

It has been concluded that the person is disruptive to the gameplay of others and does it wilfully, at least from what I have been reading.

It also appears that logs have been sent to Tulga for review and action on the person in question.

Therefore the onus is on Tulga to deal with the issue in a timely manner. They and only they should be responsible for dealing with the problem.

As I see it, IF the problem has gone on as long as the various posts indicate, and IF eveyone that has had a problem with this person in-game has uploaded their logs then Tulga owes everyone an answer on how they will deal with it.

Posting numerous threads on the boards, with everyone complaining about said person, without any action being taken by Tulga will only serve to encourage this person to continue the behavior pattern he is in. He KNOWS he is getting to you all and that is the gratification he gets for his behavior, especially at little risk of censure from Tulga.

Tulga has been historically slow to deal with such problems. Although this may be attributed to the low staff levels it is still not an excuse to allow everyones' gameplay to be disrupted without action being taken. In the game I am presently in, a complaint was made (online by the way) about one person in channel. The problem was handled within an hour by a3 day banning of that person.

The problem is not the Community on Orders problem. If the person is breaking the rules set out in the EULA and RP Policy then the problem is Tulgas.


And THAT my friends is THE REAL ISSUE!

[FleshRoast]

I have not experienced any thing of this nature, but I've heard of others who have. A player community is it's own shield and each part that it is made of strengthens the whole. We areour own "Neighborhood watch."This applies to any grouping, guild, shard, or even game wide. In addition to the law and the rules as written by Tulga, we each have or own standards that may or may not exceed those.Which of these standards have been violated should determine the appropriate course of action.

Some of the player interactions I've heard of seem to qualify as a crime, especially those of a sexual nature that may have involved minors. This needs to be reported, no questions asked, to both Tulga and local authorities. If you're not sure about this, I'd at least report it to Tulga. Violations of any of Tulga's written rules should follow this as well. Log snippets should accompany any accusations of these types as they are serious enough to get someone banned or even jailed. I do not think an entire log needs to be submitted, but I would do as little editing as possible. Any editing at all raisies the possibility that someone with a grudge might be trying to take something "out-of-context" and set someone up.

As I mentioned earlier, there are those with standards that exceed the minimum as defined by law and Tulga. Here, players have no recourse but to simply ignore the problem player. There seems to be a few ways to do this mentioned in earlier posts on this subject such as the /ignore command. Again, a person cannot fragment a group with lies and suspicion unless he or she gets by the community shield. I would caution that fair and equal justice be observed, but there is no reason that any one player should destroy the comraderie and trust of a well-built community.

A main point of these games is to introduce us to "society," even if in a verylimited way in afantasy world. A community *can* control what elements it accepts and rejects. This is not to say that bigotry and racism are acceptable, but that intolerance, rudeness, indecency, and inconsiderate people can either change their ways or be ignored by the rest of us until they do.

As a final point on this, I've learned that one should never ascribe to malice what can be explained by stupidity. In other words, people don't read minds. If someone offends you, it may have been accidentally so. Tell the person you were offended and why. More than likely, you'll get an apology. This holds true if a conversation takes an undesirable turn, too, in terms of a relationship. If the person doesn't apologize or continues to press on an undesired subject, you now have the logs to support a harrassment case with Tulga against the player.

[FleshRoast]

Ya slipped this in one me, Bori, while I was posting my own response. :)


"Posting numerous threads on the boards, with everyone complaining about said person, without any action being taken by Tulga will only serve to encourage this person to continue the behavior pattern he is in. He KNOWS he is getting to you all and that is the gratification he gets for his behavior, especially at little risk of censure from Tulga."

Agreed, especially when explicit names are used. There are people out there who feed off the pain and misery of others and all you do here is stoke their fires. Venting and asking for suggestions here is fine, but one may want to be a bit more generic about it, at least on a public forum.

Also, I agree that in this case, the ball is now in Tulga's court. They have a responsiblity to *every* player to ensure the accuracy of each accusation and the application of any appropriate action. Such research does take time and can sometimes seem inordinately so.

Again, if you think a crime has been commited such as a sexually-related chat with a minor, you do not have to wait on Tulga. Take the log to the local authorities.

[Carsia Wolfsong]

So I hear you all are keeping a close watch over the same person I see. He doesn't have me on ignore, but might the rest of you. latly thats his plans. One of his alts was on yesterday and I'm coming back to the game to watch again. I've been watching this person sence he first came to this game. I had to deal with thim or months personally. about another month or two ago he put a Virus on my computer that kept making my computer crazy. So. I know alittle about him. he knows hacking aswell as a few other tricks. Hes not a nice person and thoughs who defend him are nothing but under his control for pleasure. His alts are Neelah, Neenah, NeNe and Muina. So far thats what I have right now. I do not have this person on ignore because I am watching him personally. He almost grabed one of my guild mates in the past and wanting to join his guild, but I've stoped him. I know better then to let others get twisted into this.. And some people have had convosation of his actions and asked me for advice for their children. I told them to put him on ignore for the children's sake aswell as their own so that they don't get soked up into this mess. If you want to learn more. I have posted my story in the Wrants. You'll find out why.

Carsia Wolfsong

[Tokoz]

In the absense of action from TG, we must protect ourselves and do what we can to protect others.

And he'd get off just as much from knowing that he'd silenced people by hurting them as he will by what we post here. It's just my hope that he gets a little bit of enjoyment out of watching the noose tighten around his neck.

At least here we have a forum to collect data and do things to protect the community. Someone that I found out who is low enough to inquire into the age of my nephew and make note of it (just learned about that today), is a SICK SICK SICK SICK individual. And the fact that he gets off on that statement just makes it all the more gross, and all the more reason to act, even in the absense of action from Tulga.