Dragon Lair Update: November 1, 2005

[Nayuaka]

Ya, hopefully at the same time. The only thing worse then leveling up this way in a school that's never appealed to me even through the design preview stages, (sorry I'm sure it's a nice school but having to port so many times just to make one thing isn't my idea of fun) would be watching the biped players still leveling up the old way while doing it.

[Death-knell]

Actually, you won't gain any XP for that scenario with Lairshaper. You will only gain XP for making and applying construction units. And the bulk comes from application. Doing Tier5 gems like they have on Blight was temporary and will not carry over to the live servers.

Dragons who wish to level lairshaper will be making construction materials, applying those materials, and doing quests.

But what you don't see is what your describing is not fun or interesting. Enchanters work this way moreor less and everyone will tell you what a chore and a bore the class is. I know I raised an enchanter till about 73rd level and I'd rather not play then play him. Now you compound that boredom with construction thats takes multiple resources. My god this is really gonna suck. Add to that the storage systems aren't designed to handle the requirements of mass multi-resource units and looking at the flowchart mass production will be needed.
No, I don't want my lair to be done a week after lairs release. But just going by the flowchart and multiple trips for multiple resources coupled with limited storage capacity tells me my lair may never be completed due to the sheer insanity to make the required units. We're not building castles! Just our homes.

[PJ]

Is it any less fun or interesting then sitting in the same field forever, gather, process, decon over and over and over? And to what extent is rate of exp gain correlated with boredom?

[Death-knell]

Is it any less fun or interesting then sitting in the same field forever, gather, process, decon over and over and over? And to what extent is rate of exp gain correlated with boredom?

Well I ain't talking about con/decon, back in beta when they introduced this I didn't like it and I don't like it now. Exp should equal the amount of work. If it takes 90% of the work to make the items, then thats where 90% of the XP should come from.

Making the building blocks is the most labor intensive requiring travel to 2 or more resource fields. Making bricks and such and getting zero XP is acceptable. But making the units and gaining most XP at applying means I have to build and tear down many times. This seems a little stupid to me. And no, I'm not going to wander around looking for dragons lairs just to apply units...thats just silly.

[Dragoniade]

Were you going to change the biped schools to work the same way?

I bet they won't not until bipeds got leveled plenty.
This is Cleansing triple tech all over.

Dragon get nerfed... as a beta. Then maybe, just MAYBE, biped will have it.

Why NOT making it worldwide already? Because they preffer to nerf dragon already than get the whinning of the bipeds (excluding those of course who said they want it that way too).

Sorry, but give that nerf to everyone, or don't give it at all. I don't take the whole 'proud achievement' as an excuse. If there was any reward to reach level 100 to those pitiful schools, then I would take it. But it isn't the case. We get NO reward whatsoever: bellow par skills, locked school.

Sorry, but this is a real poor choice. Show dragon some REAL love already, not some old aunt kiss everyone is running away from.

[Kitimandiri]

Hey Devs? Why don't you just take orders for lairs, custom build them, and release them along with a patch. Then you don't have to bother with the rest of the lair crafting school. No one seems to appreciate the work you've done on it anyway...

/sarcasm off

[Mirsathia]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Goriax wrote:

Were you going to change the biped schools to work the same way?

I bet they won't not until bipeds got leveled plenty.
This is Cleansing triple tech all over.

Dragon get nerfed... as a beta. Then maybe, just MAYBE, biped will have it.

Why NOT making it worldwide already? Because they preffer to nerf dragon already than get the whinning of the bipeds (excluding those of course who said they want it that way too).

Sorry, but give that nerf to everyone, or don't give it at all. I don't take the whole 'proud achievement' as an excuse. If there was any reward to reach level 100 to those pitiful schools, then I would take it. But it isn't the case. We get NO reward whatsoever: bellow par skills, locked school.

Sorry, but this is a real poor choice. Show dragon some REAL love already, not some old aunt kiss everyone is running away from.

Why, why, why do you insist on accusing the devs of conspiracies against dragons when there just aren't any there? Do you have any concept of game design at all, or are you just off in your own little world here? NO, running a website does NOT count as game design and implementation.

The best thing, when trying to start a brand new system, is to test it on a small scale. In this case, the scale is the Lairshaping school. It could havbe been the Confectioner school, probably, if the devs had decided to update THAT school first instead of implementing Lairshaping.

The reason for implementing a totally new change on a small scale is that, if everything goes wrong on the implementation, the devs only have one school to fix/rollback, instead of ALL of the schools.

Take a deep breath and think things through objectively, for once. Take a walk. Take a week's, a month's, breather, and come back with a fresh point of view, if this game upsets you so deeply.


~Mirsathia

[Dragoniade]

Why, why, why do you insist on accusing the devs of conspiracies against dragons when there just aren't any there? Do you have any concept of game design at all, or are you just off in your own little world here? NO, running a website does NOT count as game design and implementation.

The best thing, when trying to start a brand new system, is to test it on a small scale. In this case, the scale is the Lairshaping school. It could havbe been the Confectioner school, probably, if the devs had decided to update THAT school first instead of implementing Lairshaping.

The reason for implementing a totally new change on a small scale is that, if everything goes wrong on the implementation, the devs only have one school to fix/rollback, instead of ALL of the schools.

Take a deep breath and think things through objectively, for once. Take a walk. Take a week's, a month's, breather, and come back with a fresh point of view, if this game upsets you so deeply.

Does designing art give you a better sight? NOPE.

And for your information, designing COMMERCIAL site with PAYING costumer follow the same steps as designing a game.

You got devellopper, you got coder. you got content manager, you got quality inssurance.
Do you realize that at work, we have more than servers:
2 for DEV, 2 for QA, 2 for Live and 2 for Pre-Prod
We test features, on each, some living to Prod (what PAYING people actually uses). Some get discarted during conception...
Now, what if we were to give Pro package to people But because someone would be, for example, from the United States, we would decide to give him a BASIC package for the price of a PRO package. Would it be fair? No. He pays the same, he deserves the same as any other clients. He doesn't get to suffer testing. And guess what, testing is done BEFORE it goes Live.

Here, we're talking giving dragons nerfs as a test, without affecting bipeds. Sorry, but Test his on everyon BEFORE putting it live..

I can't belive how candide you are.

You call it fair. If they were fair, they would have pushed it on Biped, THEN dragon, to compensate the 2 years of nothing we got.

I'm tired to see dragon being the guinea pig of biped. I'm tired of seeing use getting the lower end of the stick. I'm tired of seeing the DEV promise us fix, only to be given cheap tricks.

They been promising use a good meal... they're giving us Kraft Dinners...

[Dragoniade]

Hey Devs? Why don't you just take orders for lairs, custom build them, and release them along with a patch. Then you don't have to bother with the rest of the lair crafting school. No one seems to appreciate the work you've done on it anyway...

/sarcasm off

Hey, what do you expect to get as an answer when someone tells you for 2 years they're going to fix your house pipes, then simply put duct tape around them for the full price? You would be angry. So are some people here. We are being given an inferior class, with inferior leveling, with inferior contents.

You're a dragon, so don't expect to have power or simply balance. Don't expect fun and just deal with it. That's, in short, we're being told.

[Mirsathia]

Does designing art give you a better sight? NOPE.

And for your information, designing COMMERCIAL site with PAYING costumer follow the same steps as designing a game.

You got devellopper, you got coder. you got content manager, you got quality inssurance.
Do you realize that at work, we have more than servers:
2 for DEV, 2 for QA, 2 for Live and 2 for Pre-Prod
We test features, on each, some living to Prod (what PAYING people actually uses). Some get discarted during conception...
Now, what if we were to give Pro package to people But because someone would be, for example, from the United States, we would decide to give him a BASIC package for the price of a PRO package. Would it be fair? No. He pays the same, he deserves the same as any other clients. He doesn't get to suffer testing. And guess what, testing is done BEFORE it goes Live.

Here, we're talking giving dragons nerfs as a test, without affecting bipeds. Sorry, but Test his on everyon BEFORE putting it live..

I can't belive how candide you are.

You call it fair. If they were fair, they would have pushed it on Biped, THEN dragon, to compensate the 2 years of nothing we got.

I'm tired to see dragon being the guinea pig of biped. I'm tired of seeing use getting the lower end of the stick. I'm tired of seeing the DEV promise us fix, only to be given cheap tricks.

They been promising use a good meal... they're giving us Kraft Dinners...

Actually, learning to do art DOES make you see better. But.... not in the way that you're assuming.


And... that's definitely not the way any sane game designer would implement a large system rewrite.

YOUR idea of 'fair' has nothing at all to do with sound game design, and has everything to do with having a personal grudge against the devs for whatever strange reasons that you make up in your own mind. It's as simple as that. *shrugs*


~Mirsathia

[Death-knell]

Well Mirsathia I have to agree with dragonaide, not that theres a conspiracy. But dragons have gotten the short end of the stick ever since beta. Who had no armor for over a year, Dragons. Who had a leaky hoard, dragons. Who has abilities that drain that hoard, dragons. Do these abilities make us superior to biped? Nope. Then why does it cost us to use it?

Finally after 2 years who gets thier second school that FINALLY lets us build our homes? Dragons. Who gets screwed with the new crafting system? Dragons. Who gets a construction school that requires 4 times the effort for a quarter the reward? Dragons.

How many times do you need to be screwed to cry foul?

oh, and another- we get nothing but 8's for dragoncrafting and a +1 for the appropriate quest. Why is it so difficult to add our last 2. 2 years later the still haven't added smelting or stoneworking quests.

[Freak]

But if dragons got all the love, then why would anyone want to play a bi-ped?

[Kitimandiri]

Well I for one am glad it has taken two years for lairs to come out. I played WoW for about 9 months straight. Most of the content was released, and this xpack they are releasing doesn't really have enough new content to rekindle my interest. I like HZ because it's much more casual, yet if I want to hard core grind I can. The devs are keeping their promises and trying to make this game what it was envisioned to be. I think they are doing a good job and that lairs look awesome. Of course other people can disagree with me, but to take it so personally like its a given right or something just seems extreme.

[Valornyx]

To build a biped plot you need to have more than one class. I have never done this, but I know that you have to work with fabrics and woods and metals and use fitting and carpentry and essence orbs and a whole bunch of other things.

A bunch of dragons here seem to want to do the same thing all with one class and are crying NERF because they can't.

If you want to sit around for another 2 years whilst the devs split dragon crafting and adventuring into a whole bunch of different classes then be my guest. Personally I'm glad to be getting anything - and to be able to do it with one class rather than levelling a whole truckload.

Just because we got to level stone / metal / scales / spells / essence / gems et al all at the same time any way we wanted to does not mean that it is our right to be able to level all craft simultaneously.

I see making lairs tougher to build - but with one class - a smart compromise over having to make 4 (for example) seperate lairshaping classes for each of the different parts. Would you be happier if lairs were the same to build as plots, but you had to level 4 classes instead. I seriously doubt it!!

Recently as a L100 crafter i had to ask where thebright wisps were - because I had never bothered to work with them before yet I am maxxed on essence harvesting and shaping.

I want it all and I want it NOW!! - honestly some of you remind me of the six year olds that I teach.

/flame on

[dorrin]

please don't lump me in with dragoniade in this... i know there's no conspiracy.. but he did bring up something i remembered happened but forgot the details... CLEANSE.
when they finally allowed us to put it on our spells they made ******** sure it could no longer be multiteched on spells first, even though MANY bipeds had been able to do that for months. if they would have taken away everyone's scribed multicleanse teched spells as well i would have had no problem with it AT ALL.. but they didn't, and in fact i would imagine they're not able to.
this isn't about wanting things now or yesterday... this is about getting screwed for being a long-time faithful customer. this change will barely affect new players at all. it will mostly affect those of us who've been 100 craft forever, and have seen that bipeds have been able to multicraft with ease for so long.. and the fact that the craft system was DESIGNED TO ALLOW THAT. it's about the fact that LAIRSHAPING IS BEING POSTPONED TO LIVE SERVERS for this crap.. something we've been waiting for a long ******** time for. it's about the fact that LAIRS ARE BEING POSTPONED for this, directly or indirectly. i took vacation last october thinking i'd be able to work on my lair... yeah.
i took vacation THIS october thinking i'd at least be able to test it on blight... yeah. other lairs, sure, but not one of my own.
this is about dangling yet another carrot in front of us. since we've known there was going to be a separate lairshaping school the presumption was that we'd be able to level it the same way bipeds have been able to since the game came out.. but no such luck.
but you're right mirsathia... having a fairly large group in one specific segment IS a good way to make sure it gets done properly before applying it to all of the schools. .. OH .. except that most people on blight probably already have lairshaping to 100. OOPS!! and those that don't (myself included) .... i'm sorry, i'm just not sure i feel like levelling up TWICE -- once on blight then again on live -- just to help them out with this. it was already daunting to have to level up lairshaping twice the current way (hence why i had been putting it off, along with spending my vacation helping with the cenotaphs instead of grinding gems for lairshaping on blight, which, don't get me wrong, i don't regret, it was lots of fun, but chances are i missed my opportunity to get to 100 the old way.. and i can guarantee it's reduced my will to level it up twice significantly).

[Dragoniade]

To build a biped plot you need to have more than one class. I have never done this, but I know that you have to work with fabrics and woods and metals and use fitting and carpentry and essence orbs and a whole bunch of other things.

A bunch of dragons here seem to want to do the same thing all with one class and are crying NERF because they can't.

If you want to sit around for another 2 years whilst the devs split dragon crafting and adventuring into a whole bunch of different classes then be my guest. Personally I'm glad to be getting anything - and to be able to do it with one class rather than levelling a whole truckload.

Just because we got to level stone / metal / scales / spells / essence / gems et al all at the same time any way we wanted to does not mean that it is our right to be able to level all craft simultaneously.

I see making lairs tougher to build - but with one class - a smart compromise over having to make 4 (for example) seperate lairshaping classes for each of the different parts. Would you be happier if lairs were the same to build as plots, but you had to level 4 classes instead. I seriously doubt it!!

Recently as a L100 crafter i had to ask where thebright wisps were - because I had never bothered to work with them before yet I am maxxed on essence harvesting and shaping.
/flame on

And Biped only require ONE ressource per unit. For example, to make essence source, they need ... essence. To make metal fitting, they need.... fitting. Every construction unit require only 1 ressource.

Dragon now require between 2 to 4 ressource for ONE unit. Ressource that are scattered to the 4 corner of istaria. That alone, is the same as leveling 2 to 4 class. That alone, was enough to compensate.

But nope, it's not enough. They needed to keep our stats low and remove our way to gain experience. If, at least, we were getting more skill points than the base, more stats or something else that would compensate, I wouldn't mind. But they don't. They give us less than everyone else. Some person says its going to be to biped too in the future. But why start with us, again? I also have to see the dev actually says it.

I want it all and I want it NOW!! - honestly some of you remind me of the six year olds that I teach.

And some of you remind me of someone of a kid wanting IMMEDIATLY a McDonald toy rather than wait and get a real, sturdy and of better quality, toy.

[Deth]

But why start with us, again? I also have to see the dev actually says it.

Because we are the first new class to come out that the rules should apply to. Because their are no level 100 Laircrafters around and everyone HAS to test out the new was on live. I know it sucks to be the Ginnie pig for it but short of coming out with a new Biped crafter class or wiping all the conf levels out in game we are the only ones around to fully test it. So they can see how it works from 1-100. You do it to Conf then no one takes conf and the higher levels is the only ones tested as only people that are very high in Conf would even bother to go forward with the school. If they come out with a new Biped class we Dragons would scream about it, as they would have to hold out on Laircrafter. They choose the route of least whining I think. Give dragons what they want, use us to test out the change and get the one time whine instead of a month down the road when they change all the classes over. At least this way the dragons will not whine over the change when the bipeds get it.

I know it sucks but I knew it was coming, as in every preview post about it I asked if this was coming or not. Personally I agree with the change but do agree that it sucks to be the Ginnie pig.

[Goriax]

From the lack of response on the question on whether they'll be changing biped schools to work the same way as laircrafting, I don't think it's hard to guess what would have been said. There's a tendency not to tell people things if you know they won't like what they hear.

I don't think the biped crafters have anything to worry about. They can still level up second, third, and fourth schools at a fraction of the effort of the first and whine about how they have it so tough while dragons have it so easy.

I could live with dragons living under new and far harsher rules for crafting multiclassing then the biped classes. I lived with the short end for the last two years. I'm used to it.

What makes me so furious I can't see straight is for that to happen and then to have bipeds come around and whine about how dragons have it so good.I've already put some bipeds on my do not group list just from their posts on these boards.

[AmonGwareth]

Yes, Dragon Lairshaper is being done this way first. Eventually the others MAY be switched as well. The amount of data entry required to switch them all is prohibitive at this time given the numerous projects we're working on. Consider Lairshaper a test of how we would like things to work, both in terms of lore, quests, XP, etc.

[Kitimandiri]

Good.