Petition to rescind the Pawnbroker Nerf

[Bori Grimbattle]

I definately have second thoughts about returning with this change in effect. Istaria has essentially a closed economy. Items do not wear out and there is not enough new blood in the game to keep the economy viable.

Before I left I had gone 3 months with no commissions for weapons or tools as a level 100 Weaponsmith/Carpenter/Fletcher/Blacksmith. Once anyone reaches the level cap they no longer have to buy any of these goods.

I stated in a thread long ago that a PB nerf without looking at the complete picture will not work. It will be interesting to see what happens but I have my doubts.

[imported_Rhyssa]

Taking a level 20 as an example, a hatchie can make say 20 different spells and around 15 different scales, all of which can be sold to a pb. You yourself said that draggies don't have much use for coin, excpet for paying port fees, and selling just 5 of each of the above would certainly pay quite a lot of port fees.


Now let's take a level 20 blacksmith, assume he can make approximately the same number of items in tools and weapons, and he also sells 5 of each to the pb and covers his port fees for a long time to come. But he also needs armour to fight in, which he has to pay for (the hatchie makes his own scales), cargo gear to help him carry more (hatchie does quests) and maybe spells depending on his adv school (hatchie makes his own).


Now let's take a level 20 outfitter, assume he can make approximately the same number of items in various forms of armour, and he also sells 5 of each to the pb and covers his port fees for a long time to come. But he also needsweapons to fight with, which he has to pay for (the hatchie has built-in weapons), tools to be able to practice his trade ( the hatchie's tools are built-in), cargo gear to help him carry more (hatchie does quests) and maybe spells depending on his adv school (hatchie makes his own).


The picture is similiar for a scholar, or any other craft class of biped. If anything, hatchies are less affected than bipeds, not more.


This change affects everyone. Personally I'm in favour of it, it may need adjusting, but overall I think it's a good idea.


**Sorry, this was in reply to an earlier post which stated that hatchies were much worse hit than bipeds, I must've hit reply instead of quote.**

[majike]

As a new member of Istaria (account only about 40ish days old) I found out very quickly that Consignment merchants were not a way to make money...Silly newbie I decided to stock one of each spell...made up about 400 spells to find out that you are limited to 150 items total in game for sale not total per pawn broker...couldn't even stock one of each beginner spell before i capped out. So i sold the excess to the Pawn broker. Now your probably thinking why would you want to stock one of each spell...because I'd been looking them to use and test out and only 3 or 4 spells were ever stocked on CM to purchase.

I moved from Dark Age of Camelot to here. The things that attracted me into staying are as follows....ability to play a dragon....friendly player base.....Items NOT decaying.

Now I completely understand why you would want to elimiate cash farming in bulk but how about considering the limit to be per player instead of per Pawn Broker.

Back when I played Ultima Online they tried the limit per NPC method..and it resulted in the majority of players not being able to sell their gems. Only the ones who first logged in each day. They have since came to their senses and removed the cap. New players deserve a chance to have a way to earn cash to eventually get a plot.

So I suggest either:

limit per player per day on items instead of limit per NPC.
raise the limit per NPC to a more reasonable level so those of us loggin in late in the day can still sell stuff.
Increase limits on Consignment merchants so that becomes a better option of making cash, perhaps with an option to auto renew the consignment with cash deduction instead of returning items to vault:)

So in closing as a new player I can live with Pawn Broker nerf if you tweak it to give a newbie an option of still making cash. BUT if you implement item decay as many have suggested here I'll be canceling and finding a new game the same day as you implement it. I put up with item decay in DAOC, and the crafting system was still screwed with no one buying anything so decay doesnt work. Best crafting system is to make 1 use items for crafters to make and sell...healing potions, or maybe even explosion potions:D for example.

[Tantalyr]

The fundamental problem with this pawnbroker "adjustment" is that it has come far too late in the day to do anything but frustrate the newer players in the game.

One of the principle espoused motivations for the change--as some supporters have posted here--is to encourage players to sell items to each other, rather than to pawnbrokers. While certainly an admirable goal, it would only work if Horizons had a large and still growing base of players who constantly needed items. The reality is that we have a relatively small player base that is top-heavy with veteran players who rarely have much need for independent or non-guild craftsmen.

My principle biped character long ago achieved Expert Blacksmith. If he ever needs a tool or weapon, he makes it himself. And as level 87 Tinkerer, he makes any cargo disks and gear he wants. If he ever needs armor, potions or things he can't make himself, he turns to his guildmates who gladly make them for free, or at least no more than the cost of any materials that are not on-hand. (And no, let's not turn this into a whine-fest about guildmates helping each other out and, thus, "ruining" the economy--it has always been thus in every MMORPG and will remain so.) And as a multiclassed Chaos Warrior/Cleric/Crossbowman, he hunts for his own comps.

Moreover, veteran players who own plots (Jeez! What veteran biped player doesn't?) can rather easily get around this PB "adjustment" and still make a ton of coin. How? Here's an obvious example: we simply build a Tier IV+ pawnbroker shop on our plot and a couple of silos, and deny access to the pawnbroker to everyone but ourselves. Then we simply fill our silos with, say, Tier V processed gems. At the beginning of each day we sell those gems to our own pawnbroker, then go out and replenish the silos. Twenty-four hours later we sell off those gems again. Rinse and repeat as necessary.

Newer players, of course, can't do that. Indeed, this PB "adjustment" just makes it that much harder for them to even buy a plot, much less build on it.

Frankly, this "adjustment" smacks of rolling up the ladder behind us veteran players. We're already rich, and by golly we'll stay that way. The new players are poor, and by golly they'll stay that way too. It isn't the best welcome mat to lay out for new subscribers . . . .

[LaughingOtter]

It isn't the best welcome mat to lay out for new subscribers . . . .

That's it exactly, Tantalyr. When you're trying to attract new subscribers, don't make changes that will do nothing but drive them off.

[Bori Grimbattle]

The company I work for is going through some major Business system changes, from software to business processes and the change is going to be extensive. However, they have done a thorough MOC (Management of Change) before going ahead. That is, they looked at Who it was going to affect and How, made adjustments to mitigate the effects on those people and implemented those changes first. Being instrumental in this process I can see where TG has failed to consider Change Management as an option.

Let us consider Newb Crafter. Let us say for the sake of argument that "Newb" knows all the game mechanics and so skips the learning curve it takes to be able to make coin in Istaria. Newb wants to be a Weaponsmith so begins his journey as a Blacksmith. He also has his sights on setlling down on a nice plot of land where he can have a shop and a store to sell his goods.

After getting his first few formulas he begins his labors. However, he notices that the connie in Trismus is well stocked with all sorts of goods at low prices. He finds out that a well meaning group is stocking the connie for new comers like himself and are doing so on a regular basis. As well, these veterans can mass produce those items in a few minutes and can keep the prices low because of this.

So what is Newb going to do? He wants to buy that plot but is limited in how much coin he can make by selling his wares. The forms he needs to progress his craft with still cost some coin to buy, but he still has to set some away for the plot. So he decides to craft items that are tech'd. However, he does not have the coin or the techs to compete with Veteran 100 Weaponsmith who is now flooding the marketplace with cheap, tech'd goods. Veteran, can port over to Trismus, make up enough items to load the Connie and poor Newb is stuck there holding the bag.

He gets lucky one day when Veteran fails to show up and manages to place his wares on the Connie. However, he finds out that all the players needing that equipment already have it, thanks to Veterans charity. The items never wear out and do not require replacement and he still does not have the techs needed to make the items people desire. Eventually, those goods find their way back to his vault.

Exit Newb.


Veteran players can easily flood the pawnbrokers with goods to pre-empt New players from ever making any coin. A quick port to Trismus, with access to well stocked silos and any level 100 crafter can reach the PB limits in very little time.

While the change may be warranted to help get the economy moving, and they may be implementing decay for Tier 6 items, and it may be the first step in a series of adjustments, TG is making the error of initiating the change that will have the most profound effect first before implementing any mitigating changes.

Simply put, it is a poor way to implement change of any sort and will drive way more people then it attracts.

My suggestion? Take a step back and look at the forest rather then the single tree. Come up with a plan that will be fair and equitable to all and not favor the Veteran player, communicate that plan to the community and listen to their input, then iniate the plan, beginning with the ideas that will mitigate the major changes.

[PJ]

Frankly, this "adjustment" smacks of rolling up the ladder behind us veteran players. We're already rich, and by golly we'll stay that way. The new players are poor, and by golly they'll stay that way too. It isn't the best welcome mat to lay out for new subscribers . . . .

TG can't not make a change just because it makes the game harder for new players. Just like they can't not make a change because it makes the game easier for new players. They have to do what they feel is in the best interest of the game as a whole.

How is it pulling up the ladder? Define rich? I may have a lot of cash saved up, but how does that hurt the new player? What does it let me do that they cannot do themselves?

[Korz]

Well as a new player I feel I should comment on this. ( I have not even played a full month yet. )

I have used the pawn broker to make a bit of money for that new piece of armor or weapon or crafting tool. It was usally faster then hunting for it and if it was for hunting gear then it made hunting easier.

The major problem I see with the change is that the hinted at reason that will make the change useful over all was not added at the same time.

To me with out adding in item decay. The change is not complete so it is like we are going to add in a new class but the abilities of that new class will come next month. But feel free to try out the new class.

Silly and useless.

As a new crafter the only real way to make good money crafting was the Pawn broker. Anything I can make someone else can make better or faster. Now if item decay was in I could possible make money by having stuff on a connie and get some sales that way. As it is now I might get a sell once in a blue moon. So now I have to adventure even if I don't want to in order to make any money. And just have to go in waiting mode till item decay comes...Lets just hope that is not to far down the road or another game might have more appeal by then.

[Kulamata]

Vague hints of marvels to come were also dropped when the mithril was changed to an alloy.

[imported_Zayin]

The fundamental problem with this pawnbroker "adjustment" is that it has come far too late in the day to do anything but frustrate the newer players in the game.

One of the principle espoused motivations for the change--as some supporters have posted here--is to encourage players to sell items to each other, rather than to pawnbrokers. While certainly an admirable goal, it would only work if Horizons had a large and still growing base of players who constantly needed items. The reality is that we have a relatively small player base that is top-heavy with veteran players who rarely have much need for independent or non-guild craftsmen.

My principle biped character long ago achieved Expert Blacksmith. If he ever needs a tool or weapon, he makes it himself. And as level 87 Tinkerer, he makes any cargo disks and gear he wants. If he ever needs armor, potions or things he can't make himself, he turns to his guildmates who gladly make them for free, or at least no more than the cost of any materials that are not on-hand. (And no, let's not turn this into a whine-fest about guildmates helping each other out and, thus, "ruining" the economy--it has always been thus in every MMORPG and will remain so.) And as a multiclassed Chaos Warrior/Cleric/Crossbowman, he hunts for his own comps.

Moreover, veteran players who own plots (Jeez! What veteran biped player doesn't?) can rather easily get around this PB "adjustment" and still make a ton of coin. How? Here's an obvious example: we simply build a Tier IV+ pawnbroker shop on our plot and a couple of silos, and deny access to the pawnbroker to everyone but ourselves. Then we simply fill our silos with, say, Tier V processed gems. At the beginning of each day we sell those gems to our own pawnbroker, then go out and replenish the silos. Twenty-four hours later we sell off those gems again. Rinse and repeat as necessary.

Newer players, of course, can't do that. Indeed, this PB "adjustment" just makes it that much harder for them to even buy a plot, much less build on it.

Frankly, this "adjustment" smacks of rolling up the ladder behind us veteran players. We're already rich, and by golly we'll stay that way. The new players are poor, and by golly they'll stay that way too. It isn't the best welcome mat to lay out for new subscribers . . . .

I agree 100%. wouldnt it be easier to limit the tierIV and V stuff and leave the

tier III and below alone? doesnt really matter to me i dont even use money except

to port.Nice fix Tulga.

[DLMyth]

I agree with this change, however i disagree with the timing. This change should help us for the better as time goes by.[^o)]

[Pharcellus]

When the original staff of Artifact Entertainment
designed this game, and they put the Pawn Broker
system in place, do you think they knew in advance
that crafters would abuse it as an alternative to
generating coin through actual crafting?

Yes, they were well aware of what it could turn into, and were told as much by the beta testers. The "we didn't see that coming" excuse doesn't wash here, because they WERE TOLD. They watched it continue to worsen for TWO YEARS, and did nothing. Now, after the horse has been dead, buried, and fossilized over millenia, they are just getting around to shutting the barn door? To what end?

They intended the pawn brokers to be a source of cash for everyone, adventurer and crafter alike. That was their PURPOSE. The problem is that they became most peoples' SOLE source of cash, because the REST of the economy went into the toilet. The reason the pawn brokers were not farmed as heavily by everyone the first few months was because there were a lot of needy people who needed what crafters had to sell, and there was plenty of demand for the supply. Now, we have a massive overabundance of supply and a dearth of demand. What else would crafters do with their wares? Eat them? Crafters can make thousands of items a day (a separate issue unto itself), and outside of deconstructing them for XP (except for potions and food), what good is that capability? How does it help the Empire? VERY few are going to go and make stuff for hour after boring hour just to throw it away, and like it.

Making the pawn brokers act like there is a market of supply and demand is all fine and good, as long as there REALLY IS a MARKET already in place. Now, there is no market. Few people need anything, the vast majority of needs are resolved with no coin changing hands (guild crafters, free crafters), and thousands of crafters are now having to compete for the only GUARANTEED source of income left in the world.

I've said it before, and I will say it again. Pawn Brokers NEEDED to be changed, but the change MUST have been included as part of a more complete package to fix the problems. Pawn Brokers are, and have always been, a SYMPTOM of the overall problem. They are not the CAUSE, and changing them to the way they are now is NOT THE CURE. Indeed, it will cause more harm than good in the long term.

As Bori alluded to so eloquently, it was bad change management. I also don't find the excuse "they couldn't do it all at once; they will follow up with the rest of the changes very soon" to be very convincing, given the history of this company, and its development team; especially unconvinced by its management. How long will it be before the CAUSES of the ailing economy are addressed? How long will Crafters have to bear being effectively capped in their acquisition of wealth while adventurers continue to be the wealthiest people in the game? Money DOES matter, as will be evidenced yet again by the upcoming Lair auctions. My prediction: the best Lairs will go to adventurer coin.

Now, suppose the original developers had indeed
anticipated pawn broker abuse, and had placed
these item limitations from the outset. Do you
think there would have been a sudden outcry
for unlimited pawn brokering? Of course not.
Players would simply operate within the
intended constraints, and life would go on.

No, instead there would have been outcry from the crafters, asking for the limits to be removed, or to give them some other form of income comparable to that of adventurers, once the player market "played out".

[Darksun]

Hi All,

I would also like this removed.

I currently have 5 craft skills @ 100 (maybe 6) and no it's not because I especially like crafting it's because I moved cities and for the last 6 months I have had to play on dialup using a laptop (and will have to for another month or so) and every othertimea mob hits me I crash! So crafting is the only option for me at present.

I think I have about 1 gold in game, so I guess I'm not much of a PB user anyway, but I think I do qualify as a crafter and I think that craqfting is becoming an endangered species. First we had the removal of finishing machines "enhancement", then the metal as an alloy "enhancement" and now we have the PB "enhancement" with apparently the promise of even more craft "enhancements" to come! I can hardly wait! Truth be told, one of the things I really like about this game is that there is no itemdecay, if this comes in I'm likely to go out.

I don't understand why about half of you get so worked up about having an economy, it's a game what is the impreitive to make it mirror real life? If we take the mirroring RL to it's extreme, don't we have to get rid of dragons, magic, undead, etc? At what point do you want to draw the line? Using what standard? A lot of this smacks of an attempt to force people to play in what you consider and acceptable way. I like the fact that I can do whatever I want with my 1 character (i.e. multiclass to my hearts content), I'm not a big fan of the playstyle police thing...

Do you want to know why I don't craft items and sell on connies or make items everytime a player asks or if I make the item for free???, It's really simple, for connies, there are not enough people playing to make this viable (and lets face it, at this stage of the game there are not likely to be for a very long time, if ever. The time for fast growth is long gone for this game.). Add to that the demand that everything be tech'd, and the shortage of components, selling via connie is simply not a reasonable option for crafters. The reintroduction of crystals (over 900!) only reinforces this.

As for making or not makingitems when someone asks for something, this is related to the making items for free. If someone wants anything I can make and it's untech'd and I have the materials to make it, I will because I have everything at hand and there's no effort. Having storage limits here also limits my willingness to assist, if I had more materials, I would make things for players more often. If components weren't so difficult to come by, I would also be more likely to respond to requests for items.

If they want something tech'd or if I don't have the materials I wont make it or even offer, unless they provide ALL the required material and components. In this case, I can hardly charge them for doing all the work. Of course if it's a low level item and I have the components, I still do it for free, because these items have a very limited usefullness value and I like to see new players ingame.

I don't really use PB's much, I deconn for the most part or simply delete where this is not possible, occasionally I just give the stuff away. I am very tired of having my crafter punished time and time again, mostly in the name of those who want the game to be played their way (in the interests og the game as a whole of course).

If there are to be changes in game, and there should be, the primary reason for these changes must be to enahnce the enjoyment people get. Everything must come after that, no fun, no play! I'm at the point where it will take very little to get me to leave, even something simple and almost meaningless is likely to tip me over if it effects my ability to have fun. Something like decay will probably see me cancel as soon as it is scheduled to go into the game.

In short I'm sick of being punished at every turn.

Darksun

[Tryagain]

Funny how people for months have complained that the economy is broken -- and then go back to farming crap and ignoring any request from people who want them to actually MAKE something for them. And wouldn't dream of putting crafted items on a connie for people to buy.

They'll need to do many things to make the economy active. But one of them is to have player interdependence. That's not going to happen when the pawn broker is the best source of cash in the game.

no the only thing needed to fix the economy was more players. This was above and beyond their ability to fix. When the game had many players there wasn't a problem at all period in getting stuff made. its only when the servers became ghost towns that it was a problem. Still though I always just though the PB's paid TOO much. Thats all they needed to do. Instead what they did was make the PB's utterly and completely useless and eliminated any way PERIOD for crafters to make some pocket change. There are now still not enough pure hardcore adventurers that need STUFF to support player interdependance.

The key equation to any player interdependance game is that the game must have the numbers to support it. It doesnt right now and the servers will need oh about 800 more or so people playing per server before it even begins to remotely work. 1000 to 1200 more during primetime for it to really shine and be fun.

Numbers create demand in any interdependant MMO economy. Horizons doesnt have them period.

[Arromere]

I also wish to add my name to this petition. It is an insane idea. As is the decay idea. I play this game because it is different because I can craft and I don't have to worry about money. I am not playing this to worry about things that I do in real life. I do not have enough time to have to constantly run around doing projects for people to make my coin. Although I do not hunt a lot I would like to hunt once in a while. What really bothers me about this is it seems that the people who want this are the people who it does not affect. Those uber charactors that already have a tonne of coin and the good tools, armour, jewlery, weapons, etc. The same was with the mithirl change and the power leveling change, people who had already used those to their advantage spoiled it for the rest of us. I can say I know personally 5 players, other then myself who do not post here (or at least I have not seen a post from them) that are of the same opinion as me. Fix the game for the majority of us or loose our business, one or the other.

[Geoff_K]

I do not like it. It will make me less likely to resub the game.

[Helcat]

interesting how people who just joined the forum
in the past couple days are conveniently against the
PB fix...

[:|]

[LaughingOtter]

interesting how people who just joined the forum
in the past couple days are conveniently against the
PB fix...

Maybe because it's such a bad idea and so harmful to them that they felt compelled to speak out against it?

[imported_Zayin]

yep i have directed a couple people in game to come here and voice there

concerns about this change.It really does hurt those that are lower level .I am of

the opinion that its ok for tier iv and v items but leave the tierIII and below

alone.Same can be said about Nadia remove the tier iv and v comps from her while
your at it.

[Ollie]

The fact that new people are coming on to protest this is a sign of how bad this problem is. I don't have lots of spare time to play as well as skim through the forums and express my opinion about every little thing. I would rather spend my few hours playing. Unfortunately there are a small minority of players in this game that have too much time on their hands. So much that they rush through a game and exhaust all facets of the game. When they are done, they look back and, wether it be boredom or whatever, they feel it is their duty to meddle with the game. Instead of playing, they come on to forums like this and spend countless hours posting thousands of times expressing their biased and often selfish opinions. The true tradgedy is that their voices are the only ones the developers of the game hear. Most players are too busy playing the game to spend time here. As a result, decisions are made and changes are put into effect that hurt the majority of players. This PB situation is another example. What's different is that many players are upset with all the changes. I'm sure alot of players are just gonna quit. Some, however, really like this game and rather then moving on to the next game are forced to come on to these forums and fight for the game they enjoy.

I issue a challenge to all those uber players out there that think these changes are wonderful and are helping the new players and creating a more enjoyable gaming experience. Delete your uber characters. Sell your big plots and give up all your money and items and start again. Go through the "better game enviornment" and get your character to 100/100 again. When this happens, then I'll believe you guys that this is better. If you don't or won't, you are hippocrites because you profited off the old "flawed" system and now, when you are all set up, are seeking to make it difficult for the rest of us. I'll bet not a single one of you will delete your characters. [:|]