Petition to rescind the Pawnbroker Nerf

[Helcat]

5. You say the PB was not meant to be (one of the many) in game cash machines. Who declared that to be truth?

The current staff of Developers/Designers.

[mindlor]

With all due respect helcat, you quit the game.

YOu dont play anymore? What right have you to render an opinion?

[TheRock]

Well excuse me Helcat.
Doing things to drive players away is good business? Now you can think again?

[Vizharan]

Something I just want to mention.....

1,000 copper = 1 silver
1,000 silver = 1 gold
1,000 gold = 1 mithril


In all the conversations I've had, nobody has come close to a mithril coin(I hear 270g was the most anybody had). Why put a mithril coin ingame, if it's impossible(or near impossible) to get? Now of course, this gets into the value of coin. The most expensive plot is, what, 6g? Maybe 7....(minus guild plots, which go a bit higher IIRC). I think the value of coin just went up. I never made much money to begin with(what I do make goes towards hoard or comps). I think this is going to hurt me in the sense that who I buy things from will have less money, thus charge more, thus making things a lot harder for me. That being said, I fully back this change. As somebody mentioned on the first page(or maybe the other thread), if you want to go God-Mode style then head to a single player game. It's a *game*, it's supposed to be difficult to get everything you want/need. Thats what makes it *fun*!

[Helcat]

With all due respect helcat, you quit the game.

YOu dont play anymore? What right have you to render an opinion?

I'm not sure where you got this bit of misinformation.
I've never quit the game, having played since launch.

[Helcat]

Well excuse me Helcat.
Doing things to drive players away is good business? Now you can think again?

As I said in a previous post, it's a tough balance.
The Devs must constantly decide between healthy
game mechanics going forward, and angering
exisiting subscribers used to having things
a certain way.

[LaughingOtter]

Anyone that is really complaining about this is just a horribly greedy or very dumb person, simple as that.

I am neither, thanks for the insult.

I oppose this because I see it as having the most detrimental effect on starting players. Resource grinding is one of the few ways a new player has to build up wealth. For the mid- and upper-levels, I think I could get behind it.

Just like removing crafting machines from the field, this hurts new players far more than it does high-levels and makes the beginner game harder but not more enjoyable. While new players can hunt gruok and undead for cash, that's is forcinga specific gameplay style on peoplewho may not wish to play that way.For that reason, I support recinding it unless some other means for new players to build capital is introduced.

[Sibbe]

Fun! Does grinding gems give you fun?!

i get fun from
- walking around a corner of a mountain and be amazed with the view (still happens on unknown terratory)
- accomplishing difficult quests
- slaying the mob you are always whacked by
- doing constructive/tion stuff with other players
- planning your plot and seeing it grow and get beautifull
- making an armor you spent hours on to get the needed comps, because you refuse to pay nadia, and then show it off to yer mates
and other things like this

the only thing here that needs money is for a plot, and you can earn money for a not too large plot very quickly, and do a lot of trading/adventuring to get a biiiig plot (or buy them with friends, easier to build up then too)


edit: i never grinded for money and payed my own plot and have around 500s now, enough for me

[Helcat]

I oppose this because I see it as having the most detrimental effect on starting players. Resource grinding is one of the few ways a new player has to build up wealth. For the mid- and upper-levels, I think I could get behind it.

I believe beginners will be fine. They have not been spoiled by
unlimited PB farming, so they will not notice a change in that
regard. And the allotted limits, combined with the fact that PBs
will deplete their stocks EVERY DAY, insures beginning players
will have more than ample opportunity to gain coin. Just no longer
in excessive quantity.

[Ophelea]

Why I woke up at 1:30 this morning I will never know but it's 6am now so I suppose it's reasonable to post.

For those who haven't been around through the whole game they won't remember, coin wasn't easy to get in the beginning when the server populations were high, and it wasn't meant to be. It was HARD. Really hard. You hunted long for whatever you could and hoped for guild help. They did realize it was a little too hard and adjusted but pawn brokers weren't capable of being instant return because populations kept the resources low as well. I remember fighting for bronze!

So....things have changed a lot since then. That's the understatement of the century.

I don't think there's anyone in this forum that denies that pawnbrokers have been abused for a very long time and something needed to be done.

The question was...how URGENT was it? I mean, take a look back at the last 18 months of fixes...heck, the last 6 months and see what you think you'd have given up to find a fix for pawnbroker abuse instead.

The simple fact is there was so much wrong and so few resources to fix it that a choice and an order of importance had to be made and pawnbrokers just fell WAY WAY down on that list.

And so abuse occurred. By few, not many. But so it goes in real life as well. The wealth is always in the hands of the few, not the many. My main character after two years has 13 silver. I'm not complaining. I could have farmed. I chose not to.

Tulga is making enormous efforts to bring new players into this game while at the same time completing content that is long overdue (lairs). Doing both simultaneously while working on a Thesis of "what is wrong with this game from launch" can't be easy. How do you balance it?

The biggest problem I read seems to be "I didn't get MY chance to farm". You know what folks? You did! You just chose not to. Be proud of that. You played the way the game was intended and still are. It was never supposed to be the way it was. They simply never balanced for the drop in sever populations.

I also read a lot of "we should have had a week's warning". With lairs coming? Can you imagine the imbalance of wealth for those who have the time to farm? Every dragon player who has 20-40 hours a week would be assured the lair of their choice while those who can't play or who won't play that way would be left out in the cold.

And there's something else that those on these boards aren't taking into consideration - most people in the game don't even read these boards. Those of you who do have a considerable advantage over those who don't. Yes, they could. But they choose to play the game as a world of wonder and surprise.

If the devs had posted the change in advance it would have been flat out irresponsible on their side with the lair auction in place.

Now, the anger and vitriol being spewed is amazing to me considering how responsive this particular group of developers has been to the complaints of the players. ARoP - didn't like the changes - they made changes within hours. Lairs aren't even live yet, but I'm betting after the first set go in you'll see changes YOU ask for.

Why not give the Pawnbroker changes time to settle, see exactly HOW they affect the economy and then LET them balance accordingly? They've listened before you have no reason to believe they won't listen now.

Ophelea - at GenCon - taking pictures and having fun :P

[Skaolloaks]

Anyone that is really complaining about this is just a horribly greedy or very dumb person, simple as that.

Take 2 minutes, shut your mouths and think about what is happening in the world.

1. PBs supply an infinite amount of money.

So do monsters

2. PBs supply so much money that not even the best and most powerful adventurers can hope to out earn a crafter who is at little to no risk. I spent the last 4 days in the yew, and rarely saw a treeant or oastic, if I was farming for cash I could have made a ton.

Allow me to introduce myself. I am a level 35 dragon hatchling. The most expensiveitems I can craft nets me a mere pittance compared to the coin older dragons can earn by taking out powerful monsters even when I sell my entire stock to a pawn broker.

3. There is no money sink (except Nadia) to even out how much money we make.

4. Nadia was designed as a major moneysink and something you weren't supposed to think about going to unless you had no option, right now she is just a bother and you could make up the cash mindlessly pawning things.

I repeat, the money I make by "mindlessly pawning things" is nothing compared to the coin more advanced players earn mugging monsters.

I really did try to earn coin selling through consignment. I ended up selling scales, claws & spells for, on average, only 5c more than I would make selling them to the pawnbroker. Not only that, I actually had to pay for the privilege of putting my items in limbo for ten days only to have them returned to my vault when they failed to sell.

5. The PB is meant to take up excess craft and adventure materials you can not sell. It is not meant to be a cash machine. In that terms anyone who uses it for major cash is using an exploit or broken game system.

6. If you sit back and take a minute to think, you can still make so much money, the problem is you all want to be semi-**************** robots. It is easy to make 200s off of just tools right now, spells you can make more... and thats just one pawnbroker. Tell me with what you spend that it still isn't enough?

200s? With the highest Dimensional Pocket ability, the largest scale pack and best cargo disk I can use at my level stuffed to capacity, the most I can earn with the most expensive item I can craft is a little over 6s. And that takes nearly 3 hours of dreary, repetitive grinding

However, to earn the same amount mugging monsters would take me even longer due to the time it takes me to heal between bouts and the time it takes my spells to recycle. I tried that for a while, but it was making the most enjoyable part of the game into a dull and tedious chore.

Crafting is dull and tedious, true, but you're supposed to be rewarded for your efforts with coin,coin that I just wasn't able to get selling through consignment.

7. Right now, an adventurer can ask in market for crafted materials and offer GOOD cash for those materials. They go unanswered often... why? Money has no meaning, the PB lets you farm so much cash and at such a faster rate than adventurers can make, it isn't worth your time to actually help someone, in that community spirit you are all bitching about. Bunch of hypocrites.

The primary reason those requests go unanswered is because the buyer is often asking for armor or weapons laced with techniques that grant the owner god-like abilities. Few, if any, crafters have the skill to make these items. Even when they have the skill, the components for the techniques are hard to come by. Nobody wants to spend hours of their time and money out of their own pocket crafting items only to have the person who asked for them turn around and say "Oh, I already bought that from someone else," or, "that price is too expensive."

8. The PBs are not removed (they could have done that too). All you have to do is craft different items, and rotate those items between pawnbrokers. If you want to make cash, you are gonna have to look at the game while you craft.

The problem with the in-game economy is not the pawnbrokers' infinite supplies of gold. It's the fact that players really don't need to buy anything. Advanced players have tons of gold because they really don't have anything to spend it on. It's money that's just built up over time. There's never a need to replace armor or weapons. There are no consumables that anyone really needs, apart from a few food items that reduce time until death points go away. There is no real demand. If there were demand for the things players craft, we wouldn't have to rely on the pawnbrokers to sell the goods we produce.

[PJ]

I wholeheartidly support the change. This is not a fix to the economy, but it is an improvement.

One of the big reasons people were making things for free (and undercutting people trying to sell crafted goods to other players) was because they could easily make enormous amounts of cash off the pawnbroker.

When it was convienent for somebody, they'd do it for free. But when it wasn't convienent you couldn't get a crafter no matter how much you offered to pay. Now crafters will want people wanting to buy things, and people will be less likely to make them for free.


But its not a fix, there are still plenty of issues with the economy. And this change will bring some of them to the forefront, namely the lack of wants among the consumer base. The problem was 2 fold, crafters didn't want to make things for other crafters or adventurers. It was a chore that just had to be done for the sack of the game. Now they will want to make things. The issue is now that there is a lack of things that players want. I've used the same set of armor in guardian for ~ a year now. Tools/Weapons almost as long for some, as long for others. Same for spells, cargo, etc.Its time to additem decay, simlar to how blighted items work. Not exactly the same as blighted items decay waytoo fast. But a slower form of decay that works in a similar fashion.

Youritems decay down to 0 as they're used in combat or in crafting, and you can recharge them with a kit from acrafter, or get them repaired by a crafter via some new fangled interfaced. Then they decay again, but slighly faster then before, repaired again but decay faster, until eventually the item either cannot be repaired or needs repair so often that its better to get a new item.

Item decay brings back the transactions between players to the economy. Crafters sell items to players. Adventurers sell tech comps to players. I'd also possibly suggest adding decay to forms/techs.

Now to shoot down the first objection: "Item Decay is bad for casual players"
The change is designed to stimulate the economy which is good for casual players as they are the ones having a hard time acquiring goods. And the ones less likely to spend their gaming time mass pawning goods. While true, casual players level slower, make cash slower, get tech comps slower, etc. such that it may seem that item decay hurts them more. Their items also decay less because they're playing less. The trick is not to add insane item decay, but to add item decay such that the suit of armor I made last year, given how much time i've spent using it, would have had to have been replaced at least once, and repaired several times.

[Sigi1985]

I don't care. I've never been very rich, never did a lot of PB runs -> BORING, very very BORING. Most of my money I earned building, lately because I adventure some more I get some money of mobs. I borrowed money to be able to buy my plot, still have to pay that back. I pawn the odd stuff I get hunting or the little left overs from a building job.
As for the fun I totally agree with Sibbe.
I'm sorry for the people who think this will affect them big time in a negative way but for me... I walked the roads and wilderness of Istaria happily since april 2004 and I still wil[:)]

[Nosdracir]

The current quantities that a standard Pawn Broker will be willing to stock:

3000 of each gathered and processed resource
300 of each crafted "stackable", i.e. food and potions
30 of each crafted, techniquable item

The cleanup period is heavily randomized to prevent anyone from timing their trips, but on average, a standard Pawn Broker will completely deplete their stock in about a day. This is, of course, assuming the stock isn't refilled in that time.

This just means that I have to plan better in order to farm cash.

1. Build a tier IV PB on my plot, plus a jeweler's table. Lock plot.
2. On even numbered days, mine, cut, and sell 3 x 3000 tier V gems for 432s.
3. On odd numbered days, fill my silos with mithril, then mine gems and make and sell 720 pieces of jewelry to my pawnie for over 500s.
4. Make and sell mithril or marble tools to fill in any gaps caused by the randomization.

What, me nerfed?

[Levity]

I am not foaming at the mouth over this -- my coin comes as tips for crafting, and from the occasional outright gift. I think the last time I did a serious bout of PB farming was with iron from the upper mine near Parsinia. I was so excited to make around 40 silver!

However, it was nice to stock up some coin now and then with the cruft picked up from a hunt or from the crafting grind. This change appears to require many extra ports (or a community with a ton of pawnbrokers open to the populace -- will silo farms be replaced by pb farms now?) which I do find prohibitive. I took Myrthwynn up to level 3 lairshaper last evening. Just the recalling and porting for that got me so laggy I had to relog just to type at a reasonable rate while assisting a new player.

One thing no one has said in this thread but has been said many times elsewhere: "please get rid of Nadia so we can sell comps for higher prices." Well, Nadia's prices are too high for me to pay. To make my current crafting outfit, I had to rope in many friends to help me hunt for comps for two weeks (I'm not complaining about that, it was fun and I have a lot of really cool and wonderful friends). The comps that just would not drop, I had to pay hundreds of silver for from Nadia. I am not happy with the idea of those prices going UP when pb cash is going down.

I am not made of gold, never have been. On my own I think the most I ever got my bank balance to was around one gold. I do have over 4 gold right now -- one gold given by someone leaving the game to help fund a lair for me, one gold I mostly earned, and two gold from the sale of a guild's plot when the GM left the game.

HZ has been an amazingly flexible game. Solo, group, hunt, craft, build, chat, whatever you felt like doing at the moment. Sometimes I feel like just going in and grinding in silence. Sometimes I feel like diving into a community project, or joining a hunt for a level or two. One of the quiet solo time activities appears to have been removed.

I have some younger toons. I'll play them and see what this change does. Yet, while I am not foaming at the mouth, neither am I exuberantly endorsing the change. On the whole, the game changes over the years have improved things immensely. Let's hope this does as well, and that adventurers understand that comps may have to come /down/ in price.

-Levity Merrel, Crai Aisling, Sans AoP by Aiya's pad still under renovation
100 Blacksmith/100 Fitter/45 Mason/45 Carpenter/14 Weaver/13 Enchanter
100 Reaver/68 Ice Disciple

[AA0]

Skaolloaks, there are a lot of problems with economy. The PBs infinite money was the biggest source of income, and it is by no means cut off and killed. There is still no out for the money, and when people settle down, they'll see it really hasn't changed that much. I really think they will make further changes to increase demand with item decays coming ,and maybe more...


Regarding call for items going unanswered, but you are wrong here. This is a sympton of "I don't need your measily 10s, I just made 50s from the pb in that time" Will this change fix it? It might, but not entirely, you will still be able to make more than some adventurer will want to hand you.

Since pb values rise on an exponential scale, you are not in the position yet to see just how abusive it is at t5, and later at t6. A single person can make upto 350s/hr without seeing enemies, I've done some testing, but I don't pb farm as a rule. What dragons could make with gems, I imagine is somewhat close to that too.

[Aamer Khan]

Again, I agree with Opehela's and PJ's comments.

This was not an easy choice for the dev's to make, but I admire their bravery! ;)

Realize that many more "adjustments" will need to be made before we have a healthy economy where everyone CAN participate. This change is just one of the first steps.

There must be a NEED before players will regularly interact with each other. This change, along with item decay and other "limits" will help as well.

Foxfire, I get what your saying about fun factor. However, let me add that the reason some of the things you mention have been fun, is that what SHOULD have be fun was not, and you get your fun where you can. Buying, selling, and crafting for money in a competitive market place can be a royal PITA. But, it can also be a ton of fun. I have been crafting things for free for over 1 1/2 years because money held very little value. NOW, I can work towards returning to the days of yesteryear, when players actually tried to develop customers, and reputations.

[Tryagain]

you are all under the assumption well at least some of you that this change will save the economy. Got news for ya... its the player population level that broke it in the first place.

When this game first came out I was playing it because I loved to craft. it was great as I was leveling my weaponsmith and taking ORDERS from a then high numbered adventurer community. Back then I made all my coin and it was a lot strictly through consigment sales and orders from those that were my customers. That was fine and dandy for December 2003, January 2004 and Febrauary 2004. Starting in March 2004 my orders dried up and there WAS NO MONEY at all period to be had via consigment sales. Guess what there still isn't today. I was forced at that time to use the PB as my SOLE source of money because it wasn't to be made anywhere else period.

So yes the PB's as an infinite source of coin was a problem. But really who will this change effect the most ? Lets look at the logic of it all.

It will NOT effect the current long time player who has wads of coin. Who has 5 or 6 MC classes with 2 of them at 100 or more. It won't effect those that go out and kill mass number of mobs in the deadlands because they can farm cash. It will effect the new lower level player and effectively shut them out from making any cash period. Because well the player to player economy is dead and WILL not ever be resurrected till we have 1000's per server like at release. There is no money to be had via low level adventuring PERIOD. Crystals will not revive this apsect and suddenly make low levels flush with the cash needed to buy oh even the smallest of plots in this game. Or perhaps a shot at the very limited number of Dragon lairs.

What it has done is made it absolutely nescessary to keep your adventuring levels up with your crafting. Which I guess isn't bad but removes the claim that you can be purely a crafter. DO I think this change should be totally done away with... no its a balance issue. But it only works in its current form if the game has the population to support a player to player economy. With numbers on chaos being around 300 visible at most it hardly is.

All that will happen is now is that the haves will build PB's on their plots and lock the plots down. The have nots will have to make due.

[Helcat]

One thing no one has said in this thread but has been said many times elsewhere: "please get rid of Nadia so we can sell comps for higher prices." Well, Nadia's prices are too high for me to pay.

with all due respect, Levity, no one cited the need to sell
comps for higher prices as the reason to remove Nadia.

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

I'm for this change IF other changes to "how" the economy works are going to be implemented as well - like item decay. I know that PB's needed to be fixed - because they were broken. I think this and other threadsare good, if people keep it constructive.

TG has shown that they DO listen to their player base. Let's remember the changes to group agro just a little while back. It was done for many of the same reasons (a gain in the game was far too easy to obtain - ie adv levels for bipeds). How long did it take for them to make adjustments to that system after it was implemented? Is the dynamic of grouping better now than it was before those changes were done? I think so.

I also think that if this change really bothers you - post about it (but don't rant). If you have guildies that don't come to the forums or post often and its made them angry or they think it was too heavy handed - then get them to come to the forums and post about it (but rants aren't needed). Do some tests (as some have); see how long it takes before a PB is made useless; see how long before they begin excepting crafted items again. Follow the market Channel - how much money can you make crafting things for others. Post feedback from your tests - offer acceptable changes, knowing that "unlimited cash" isn't really an option (this action by TG shows that).

"If they increased PB's buying amounts by 150% or 200%would that be better?" This could easily be done by TG.

"If they increased the PB VALUES on things would that be better?"
Prices were nerfed some time back because of the previous situation. Would it be time to review that decision? This could easily be done by TG as well.

Ranting about this, without testing the perimeters of the changes, won't do anything or change anyone's mind. I think, based on my testing that this change was a bit heavy handed - especially with regards to finished products. I'm still open to testing it out more, living with it a bit and seeing how it goes. I'm also looking forward to actually making things to sell to OTHER PLAYERS <boggle>. I have my reservations to this, because I also feel that the populations are far too small to support a player generated economy.

I support the premise for the changes to the PB's but I'm hoping that there will be "give and take" or possibly some tweaks to what has been brought to live based on player feedback. I also hope that Item Decay, Comp Drop Increases and dynamic trading systems can be brought in that will enhance and strengthen the economic forces in game atm.

Bulgrim