Confectioner Preview - Feedback Thread

[Theolaerynn]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Theolaerynn wrote:Longer lasting death points mean longer lasting penalties, due to the nature of the penalties being dependant upon how many you currently have. If I get say, 6 deathpoints in a particularly foolish (but fun) endevor, they currently decay in two days. That means that from the time I log out to the time I get back in game I have typically lost 2 or 3 death points, so I only need to play it marginally safer for one day to let the rest decay.No, longer lasting Death Points has nothing to do with the penalty lasting any longer. As far as anyone is currently aware, the maximum duration for a death penalty is still 1 hour. The only thing that has changed is that death penalties last for 24 hours.

In the current system, two days later all 6 death points are gone. If I die again at that time, no penalty because it is my first effective death point. In the new system I will have 4 death points still, so a new death counts as a 5th and the penalty is applied accordingly. That is what I was getting at.

In the new system that will represent 6 days, meaning by the time I log back in I *may* have lost 1 death point, and will need to play it safe for 5(!!) more days. Screw that, I would rather play something else. The only thing Horizons really has going for me right now is being able to try crazy stuff in battle. That is why longer death point timers mean less time in Horizons for me.So, if the only thing Horizons really has going for you is being able to try crazy stuff in battle. Why can't you still do so, and simply buttress that crazy battle stuff by eating some food?

It isn't that I can't, it is that it isn't worth it to me. I would rather spend my silver on other things, like Lair plots, rare crystals, and scale upgrades. If the change made any sense whatsoever then it would be different, but Confectioners are slated to get their more than well deserved attention other ways. This death point change is unnecessary.

On top of that, the game just isn't stable enough. A fair amount of my deaths come from that friggen hitching that happens whenever another player comes into view. So I go pull some critters on the Satyr Islands, drag them back to my group, and freeze up for 5 seconds per group member. If they are spaced correctly then it can be 10 or 15 seconds before I am able to act, and that is a hell of a long time when pulling back half a dozen or more critters. So it is not uncommon to die once or twice an outing just from that.This has nothing to do with the change. It is ancillary. It is also not universal. My system does not exhibit this freezing. Sometimes I will get minor hitches of a half a second or so...

So, to attribute this to this specific change is applying a negative to something that has no impact on that particular problem. Death Point duration does not affect your "Hitching" in any way/shape/form.

I disagree. If it causes death points and is due to deficiencies in their code, then it absolutely is pertinant. Just because it doesn't manifest itself on all systems doesn't mean it is less valid for those that suffer it.

So AE has decided to make the one thing I enjoy in the game more annoying, without any benefit to me whatsoever. Confectioners aren't paying for my account so changing them should not penalize me, just as changes for my benefit should not penalize them.It doesn't benefit you. No. It benifits confectioners. This would be the reason they call it a "Confectioner Preview" and not "Everyone Preview". This change is to directly affect the confectioner class and to give it a meaning and a place in the scheme of things in Istaria.

Again, I disagree. They are slated to get foods that give benefits on par with Alchemists potions, if I have read correctly, but do not conflict with them. That will give them meaning, and penalizes no one.

But that is the plan, right? Inconvenience adventurers so that Confectioners can have one more reason to exist (remember, they are slated to get plenty of other Dev Love at the same time).This *IS* their "Dev Love". The dev's are giving a meaning and reason to the confectioner class and it's products. To do so, they had to make the death point system something that actually had an impact. You have even stated that it made very little difference to you. Seems to me that the change will have it's desired effect. People will fear death, or they will seek out confectioners to remedy the situation.

As I said earlier, their attention is also comming in the form of benefits similar to, but not in competition with, Alchemists. No need for the death point change. And even you said lower in your own thread, it isn't going to make combat any more exciting. So what is the point?

There is plenty of benefit. It adds a sense of danger to death that frankly simply does not exist at all. It adds a market for confectioners. It gives food a reason to be used instead of being ignored in favor of "Time to go to sleep".

It won't increase the thrill of the hunt in the slightest. MMC's will still pull 50 blights. You are right. The economy isn't going to be magically hopping because of this change. It will stimulate the economy, but it's not going to be the magic fix. I also expect to see many people taking up their umpteenth craft class so that they can make their own food. Welcome to the world of MMC's. This however, is caused by a different matter entirely.

Unless I missed something, those two quotes are in direct conflict. It adds a sense of danger but wont increase the thrill? I think that you and most other rational people recognize right off that this will neither increase the sense of danger nor provide a thrill.

[Theolaerynn]

As another poster says: It all boils down to "I don't wanna buy food". To that, the propper response is "Then suffer". Really, it's that simple. To alleviate the increased death penalty, eat some food. It's not all that difficult to understand...

I think what you are missing is that I am not arguing that point at all. That is the way of all games, the developers code something and you deal with it or you leave.

Or you voice your oppinion in an effort to get them to change it.

It would be one thing if the change made any sense whatsoever, but it doesn't. There is no need to upgrade one school to the detriment of all others, you can upgrade that one school in more beneficial ways. And hey, what do you know, Confectioners are going to get both.

Making negetive changes isn't the way to build a player base, something that is vital to all players.

[Anima]

<waves!> Hello everyone.

I check on this thread quite abit... I guess I'm hoping to find intelligent speculations, suggestions and opinions on these confectioner changes.All I see is an argument.

Please, can we stop with the blanket statements?

"It would be one thing if the change made any sense whatsoever, but it doesn't. There is no need to upgrade one school to the detriment of all others, you can upgrade that one school in more beneficial ways. And hey, what do you know, Confectioners are going to get both." - Theolaerynn

From what I see in the confectioner preview, they did a pretty good job of stating what the problem was, what thier goals are...and some details on how they were going to proceed. Egads, they even had a Q&A section at the end.

If you take a moment to think about this change as a whole... You'll probably guess that it's most likly going to be intruduced via an event. Events = Fun.
The WA is probably going to build some nasty blight machine that we'll have to destroy, the after math will effect us by inflicting higher deathpoint duration..or some such, you get the idea.

Please trust the Devs to make this change fun~

If you're going to say you "Do" or "Do not" like these changes, please.. offer us a reason why. Maybe a suggestion or three on how you'd improve these changes, some alternatives... you know, constructive criticism. Debate dont argue.

<waves!>

[Theolaerynn]

Please trust the Devs to make this change fun~

If you're going to say you "Do" or "Do not" like these changes, please.. offer us a reason why. Maybe a suggestion or three on how you'd improve these changes, some alternatives... you know, constructive criticism. Debate dont argue.

It isn't a matter of trust, they have stated their plans clearly. I just do not understand why, and am voicing my oppinion.

As for the rest of what you said, you must not have read my posts very carefully. I very clearly posted why I do not like the changes, and I very clearly posted the solution. It would be a debate if anyone offered a counter-point other than 'live with it'.

This has become a circular conversation, though, so I agree that there is no benefit to discussing it further. There actually doesn't seem to have been a benefit of posting at all, though, other than I at least got to state my oppinion. I should have left it at one post.

As a parting thought, though, concerning trusting the Developers to make it fun. Haven't any of you wondered why after two years the subscription rate is at the level it currently is? One would think that would speak volumes in and of itself. It isn't enough that ones heart is in the right place, there must also be the ability to manifest it.

[cattoy]

As a parting thought, though, concerning trusting the Developers to make it fun. Haven't any of you wondered why after two years the subscription rate is at the level it currently is? One would think that would speak volumes in and of itself. It isn't enough that ones heart is in the right place, there must also be the ability to manifest it.

EQ2
WoW
DDO

If this game existed in a vacuum, then the subscription rate would be entirely a function of the devs and their responses to the playerbase.

It doesn't, it isn't.

[Theolaerynn]

EQ2
WoW
DDO

If this game existed in a vacuum, then the subscription rate would be entirely a function of the devs and their responses to the playerbase.

It doesn't, it isn't.

That argument would almost make sense if Horizons had its share of the over-all player base, but while EQ2 and WoW are wildly succesful, Horizons doesn't have enough players to keep the lights on. AE is bleeding cash.

Your entire argument is null and void based on faulty logic. You simply do not wish to ever have something changed that may or may not carry a negative impact in any way shape or form. No matter what it will do to the game as a whole.

Not even close. I never spoke out once against the server merge, and that was a very negetive change. It was, however, quite necessary.

With the exception of severe one-off things like the server merge, which was a "do it or shut the game down" affair, what negetive changes have been positive to the game as a whole? It seems to me the ones that need to be made haven't been, and the ones that don't need to be have, for the most part.

But no one has mentioned how trippling the death point penalty will be better for the game yet. We have already discussed how Confectioners will have other avenues to be very useful (like Alchemists), and we have already discussed how it isn't going to increase the thrill of the hunt. With those two reasons in support of the death point change debunked, someone tell me just what is the benefit to the game as a whole?

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

The main problem I have with your argument Theo, is that you keep coming back to the "other" food Conf's are suppose to be getting.

Firstly, those foods won't be coming at the same time the mundane, DPTR foods will be. They will be coming in at later pushes..... MAYBE

Secondly, addressing that maybe... We all know that AE/TG have a nasty habit of halfway implimenting things and then leaving the rest to be forgotten in lieu of newer, bigger, and better things people, or they, want NOW. I've yet to see proof that that habit is ever going to change. So until I see ANY of it, I'm not gonna believe it. Once we see the mundane foods, I'll refuse to believe ANY of the other foods until again, I see it.

The proof is in the pudding. And it is a bit surprising that you can't find in within yourself to trust in the DP change (sight unseen of how the new DPTR foods and tavern bonuses are gonna work against those DP changes), yet you full heartedly trust the other foods, besides mundane, are gonna hit live. I'm not sure I understand that logic.


Now, don't get me wrong. The PROPOSAL is very nice. I can't wait to see it ALL come to fruition.... But (isn't there always a but?) history shows that we'll most likely get the first push and not see anything else done. So for me, as hopeful as I am that EVERYTHING proposed hits live, I'm only banking on the first push. And oh how I hope they get it right.

Until then, I'll keep giving input and logic where I can, when I can, and when asked (and sometimes when it hasn't been asked). I just hope it helps.

[Theolaerynn]

The main problem I have with your argument Theo, is that you keep coming back to the "other" food Conf's are suppose to be getting.

Firstly, those foods won't be coming at the same time the mundane, DPTR foods will be. They will be coming in at later pushes..... MAYBE

Secondly, addressing that maybe... We all know that AE/TG have a nasty habit of halfway implimenting things and then leaving the rest to be forgotten in lieu of newer, bigger, and better things people, or they, want NOW. I've yet to see proof that that habit is ever going to change. So until I see ANY of it, I'm not gonna believe it. Once we see the mundane foods, I'll refuse to believe ANY of the other foods until again, I see it.

Ok, that argument makes sense to me.

I am definitely going on the assumption that those will be delivered at the same time, or at least shortly thereafter. We have all been let down by that in the past.

[Vandellia]

From what information i have the confectioner roll out will take place in THREE and i do me 3 parts which depending on what they choose to push it could be weeks at a minimumto months before the final vision isfully implemented, this is neither a good or a bad thing but we all know that after the massive changes proposed it will take a long time to get all the spped bumps and issues out caused by the changes, we aloso know that priorites change constantly so it could be a very very long time before the confectionerroll outis totally done, and issues fixed, as far as the previews statements if it gets implemented right it will be a good thing if it gets reimaged/reenginnered im mid change we will all suffer. bottom line is dont rush it out take the time to get it in and done right the first time fix and issues/problems that happen immediatly and it will be fine. if it languishes or loses its priority and starts slipping backwards for other things it will be a real mess.

[TelShyia]

Okay, being a lvl 100/100 dragon, and 68 lairshaper...and reading 8 pages of posts, i feel i have to get my two cents in now.[:P]
holy moly, if you die, you die...so what? If the DP's are too much, adjust tactics or group with a healer [:D]). between grinding for gp to buy lair, grinding for stuff to build lair, hunting is something I do as a sideline to take a break from digging up Istari for resources. Now, don't get me wrong, I enjoy killing as much as the Lunus (I'm Helian), but far more interesting atm to figure out this lair stuff than hunting. It's something that I do for fun and profit. I too, give away most of the things that drop for me, one of the reasons that I play is to help those that have a hard time getting the stuff they need to make the game more ENJOYABLE for all! I think that the proposed changes are going to be good for some if not all. The DP thing is being blown out of portion here in this thread. Until it happens, not a real way to see the +- of it, well at least for me. The confectioners have, from what I have seen gotten the short end of the stick for quite awhile....so, without change, things are stagnant, and that is NOT a plus in anyway.
What will concern me is if, the changes are not good, and the ENTIRE player base complains, HZ has the tendency to NOT make a change back.
Yes, I lag terrible also (this with 4gigs of RAM), but know how i fix that? Log, log back in...boom, 4-6hrs more of un-lagged game play.
I agree with Anima (waves back), lets get the thread back to the issues at hand, whether or not this porposed change is a good thing or not. My vote - good

Telshyia
Chaos Dragon
now at 8.8mil hoard (so hunting does have a purpose [H])
ps. If ya need Theo, I will help you get some food, wife's a confectioner, we'll raid her fridge [8-)]

[Viceroyx]

I too have read this thread and wonder why death points and confectioner abilities have to be so linked. One, confectioners can get more capabilties (potionesque) without having to raise the DP burden.

Two, lets acknowledge that unlike lairs which affect many, fixing confectinos affects a much smaller population. And thus, why do we need to fiddle with the DP timer in order to placate some minority.

I also read that some said people quit over the weak DP effect. This is almost absurd. Sure, one clown may have quit for such a reason, but it's hardly a representative point. We all know that people quit because of the lack of population, grind and client performance. So if that's the case, does raising the DP encourage more players to join or more players to leave? Isn't the answer obvious. Imagine your a new player, with a lvl 12 rating, you're on a2 week trail and you just picked up your sixth dp--do you stay?

Three, The great thing about the current system is that players can log for the day after they get their DPs and often come back the next for a fresh start. While everyone who is pro-24 hour DPs says these players can play inhibited, if you're pushing your character to the limit and fighting your maximum (which is where all the thrill and fun generally is),it's often not possible to continue fighting those challenging mobs with the DP burden. Thus, people log, as they have stated numerously in this thread. Thus, that's a fact. The counterpoint would be to grind mindlessly away on unchallenging mobs, where one does not risk a DP burden. Im left wondering why tell people to play differently than they want to. For myself, I dont think the solution is to tell people they have to play differently, since you may or notto be part of the side that happens to be comfortable with the change.

Four, confectioners clamor for more things to do, yet Ambrosia is sold by the gold, and tools are sold almost by the copper. Sure, they want to be more than a one trick pony, which is understandable, but they fail to acknowledge, that they have one of the most popular ponies in the game. Unfortunately, on chaos some of are confs are price fixers (e.g., the consortium on 14s ambrosia), and have refused to get in the game because of their price fixing ways. (Perhaps we should put more trust in these price fixers, and give them more ways to hold us capative)


Viceroyx



P.S. I must now hide in fear, since the CONF lobby is very powerful. You don't see the crossbow class banding together to complain about how ineffective they are and thus, bringing about comparable massive change.

[Viceroyx]

I have already said what benifits it is to the game as a whole.

Increased Death Point Duration and Death Penalty Severity does many things: First and foremost, it makes death something to avoid instead of something that you don't give a second throught to. Next, it defines the role of the confectioner. They are the definitive source of death timer removal. It gives confectioners a sense of purpose. Third it gives Taverns a point to existing. Now there is a reason to have a tavern on a plot. It would be a place to obtain foods, as well as increased effect to said foods.

Sounds like PLENTY of benifit to the changes. The only "Debunking" you have done was to say that you have no coin and can't be arsed to kill gruoks for a day to pay for food to allow you to continue being a wild and crazy monster killer.

Kuma,

a. I agree, if the DP time is set to 24 hours, people will want to avoid it more. But why stop there? Why not set the DP time to a week, and really punish people. Maybe a month is more arbitrary and more damaging. That has to be better than 24 hours.

b. confs are unhappy being the definitive source of dp removal..that's what this whole thread is about. They already are the definitive source (e.g., existing food and ambrosia). The thread is about the devs adding more capabilities than DPs--isn' it? Thus, they already are defined. They want an expanded role, not the current definition.

c. Lets make taverns work. This is my favorite point. Yes, lets give a purpose to taverns. It would be great too if craft centers had trainers and I could swim in my fountain too.

[Pariah]

DPs are one of the most annoying aspects of this game , so much so I have made multiple charactersto compensate for a high DP count , too many DPs on one I can play another ,but thats how Ive gotten around the burden of Dps,making DPs a longer duration won't help the single toon accounts,it will probably drive the NON diehard players to other games.An Ambrosia 8 will still be required to dump the DP count, just make it extremly hard to get the comps(not buy them loot only)and it will satisfy alot of the hunters as well as the confectioner school.

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

b. confs are unhappy being the definitive source of dp removal..that's what this whole thread is about. They already are the definitive source (e.g., existing food and ambrosia). The thread is about the devs adding more capabilities than DPs--isn' it? Thus, they already are defined. They want an expanded role, not the current definition.

That's where you're mostly wrong Vice. Conf's are hardly unhappy about being the DPR school of the game. They're unhappy that 90% of our products are WORTHLESS. They're unhappy that they're forced to level off one of four types of products (with different skill reqs) per T3 and T4. They're unhappy that in order to remove a single DP, without using Ambrosia, the numbers look like this:

________cut & paste of figures I posted in another thread________
Meat types:
Beef
Chicken
Fish
Gruok
Mutton
Veal
Vegetable: Carrot
Vegetable: Potato

Entree types:
Soups - 3m
Steaks - 3m
Stews - 4m
Kabobs - 4m
Jerky - 5m
Pickles - 5m
Roasts - 6m
Pies - 6m

All meats have all entree types and the veggies have soups. So for each tier this is what we have total:

T1 & T2:
Soups - 8
Steaks - 6
Stews - 6
Kabobs - 6
Jerky - 6
Pickles - 6
Roasts - 6
Pies - 6
------------------
Total = 50

T3 & T4:
Soups - 8
Steaks - 0
Stews - 0
Kabobs - 6
Jerky - 6
Pickles - 0
Roasts - 6
Pies - 0
-----------------
Total = 26

Now, lets do some consumption figuring. First we'll start by figuring the amount of each minute allotment food individually to see how many someone would need to eat in how much time to remove a single 8 hour DP. My figures will take into account the 10 minute wait period.

Numbers will be listed as such:
DPR per food - number of foods that remove this amount - amount of food needed to remove a single DP if all food types in this time allotment were available - amount of courses to do so - amount of 10 minute wait periods - total time taken for removal

T1 & T2:
3m - 14 - 130 - 10 - 9 - 1h 30m
4m - 12 - 100 - 9 - 8 - 1h 20m
5m - 12 - 84 - 7 - 6 - 1h
6m - 12 - 72 - 6 - 5 - 50m

T3 & T4:
3m - 8 - 114 - 15 - 14 - 2h 20m
4m - 6 - 85 - 15 - 14 - 2h 20m
5m - 6 - 72 - 12 - 12 - 2h *note: you must wait out your last 10 minutes*
6m - 6 - 64 - 11 - 10 - 1h 40m

And to be fair, lets go ahead and list the figures if you happened on the impossible and had every single food type across every time allotment. Same listing format as above only I'm excluding the DPR per food and I'll be figuring for the least amount of food possible to compensate any odd remaining time to the minute. To reinterate: Number of foods that remove this amount - amount of food needed to remove a single DP - amount of courses to do so - amount of 10 minute wait periods - total time taken for removal

T1 & T2:
50 - 103 - 3 - 2 - 20m

T3 & T4:
26 - 102 - 4 - 3 - 30m
________end cut & paste________

They're unhappy that they are the only school with worldwide NPC competition (Ambrosia vendors). They're unhappy that taverns serve no purpose whatsoever even with it's larger listing limits because all anyone ever can sell is ambrosia with token buff foods. They're unhappy that they are STILL missing resources and their nodes. AND they're unhappy that they have been this way, not since merge... not for a year... not even since release... they have been this way... since beta (with only a few exceptions)!

I'm sure there are some I missed but that's the meat and potatoes of it. And your argument that it only affects a small minority of players is also incorrect. It affects every person that gets a death point and takes a hit of ambrosia to get rid of it. No longer a small minority is it?


I understand that without firsthand experience with a school misconcieved notions can be formed. But I humbly ask that you educate yourself before commenting on what is wanted or needed for said school (in this case, Confectioner). Thanks. :)


EDIT: And btw, I DO hope you devs are taking note of the figures I have reposted here. If the new foods work no different or even only slightly different to what is exhibited in these figures, then the changes are worthless.

[Viceroyx]

It's all circular logic. In order to make the other non-ambi conf food products valuable, youeither have to (1) nerf AMBI; (2) extend DP timer; and/or (3) make food do something different. Thus, we are talking the same thing, since what the devs have already proposed is ambi drop only, food will work on DPs but also do something different. And the DP timer will be extended tocreate more CONF demand.My point was, confs are already the solution for DP removal, and will continue to be.


Seperately, some of you have stated that the penalties for death were too soft, supporting the 24hr dp time. yet, if food's efficacy is increased to compensate for the longer dp time. The penalty hasn't really been increased. The ONLY real change is that you are beingalmost railroaded into buying food by the devs. If there was really an increased penalty, why would the efficacy of food be increased? It's because somehow the devs have bought into this argument that confs deserve more business.

[LaughingOtter]

If you want to sell consumable items, there has to be a constant demand. The penalty is not what motivates demand; demand arises in direct proportion to how well an item mitigates the penalty.

Confectioners have to be able to offer a product that removes DP time quickly and conveniently, otherwise the revamp is doomed to failure. Right now, food does not meet that test. Ambrosia does, so there is demand for it. There's no argument from anyone that confectioners are in-game to help with DP removal; all confectioners are asking for is to be able to offer something of value and to have a place in the economy.

It's not circular logic, it's a series of inter-related issues. To me, someone should not be able to rack up 40 or 50 DP without batting an eye. Getting killed should be something you want to avoid. Longer DP=incentive to avoid getting killed. If you get killed, you can wait your DP out or pay for the convenience of getting back to the battlefield sooner.

[imported_tjl]

They're unhappy that they are the only school with worldwide NPC competition (Ambrosia vendors)

umm at 50s a pop for VII. that's about as much competition as nadia gives to us adventureres with comps. hardly any competition there.

[Viceroyx]

Klaus

"all confectioners are asking for is to be able to offer something of value and to have a place in the economy." they already have an economic opporutnity that dwarfs many classes through ambi, so that's not the point. thepoint i think is that confs desireto sell something on top of/other than ambi (ergo, have more products in demand)or to say the same thing differently, they want thier other items/food to be valuable, instead of just one particular item. This is the one trick pony argument that many confs have.


"To me, someone should not be able to rack up 40 or 50 DP without batting an eye. Getting killed should be something you want to avoid. Longer DP=incentive to avoid getting killed" I addressed this point to earlier. It's not an incentive if the efficacy of food has been increased proportionally. Thus, the system is exactly the same. The only difference is by having a longer penalty without food, you are more trapped into buying food. penalties only apply, if they apply. Thus for those who buy the new food, dealing with confs are their penalty, not the timer.

[LaughingOtter]

It's not an incentive if the efficacy of food has been increased proportionally. Thus, the system is exactly the same. The only difference is by having a longer penalty without food, you are more trapped into buying food.

If DP removal is proportionally the same, then confectioners have no market and nothing has been changed - agreed. Obviously, the DP removal for food has to be increased greatly. The adventuring community will actually be better off with food having decent DP removal and no ambrosia - food will cost less than ambrosia does currently.

[Bori Grimbattle]

DP increase would not bother me if...

CNF were not the only source to remove DPs other then rare ambrosia drops...

Because..

NO OTHER class other then Alchemist has a constant demand for their products from Tier 1 thru Tier 6 and you can effectively level, albeit slower, without alchemy potions whereas too many DPs and if you get one more you are effectively at the mercy of the CNFs until the Death Penalty is gone.

You will never have a proper functioning economy where only certain items are in constant demand and others just never wear out and end up as hand-me-downs.

Tier 6 item degradation just does not cut it as by then, those who need a new item have enough coin to buy or repair said item. Newer players, are going to be hit the hardest.

The smart move would have been to look at the complete picture, come out with an outline of a plan to address all crafting classes, then start implementing one after the other. At least then others would know their turn would be coming eventually. Even "Attune" items sp once used by someone they could not be handed down. That at least would create more demand. (Tools for example).

CNFs needed loving, but I think too much loving at the expense of others will leave the same bitter taste the Dragon loving left over the past year.