A Comparison of Required Resources for Lair Chambers and Biped Shops

[Tantalyr]

The devs previously mentioned that they had reduced the number of placed units required to build lair chambers in order to offset the amount of required resources vis-a-vis comparablebiped structures. In the hours I've spent working on my lair (til I was stopped by the Expert Azulite Focused Crystal bug) I got the very real sense that this reduction in finished units just wasn't making up for the amount of resources I needed to gather for them. So today I put pencil to paper (and calculator to hand) and calculated out the total number of raw resources needed to build a Tier IV biped scholar shop on the one hand, and a comparable Tier IV Essence Chamber on the other. In making these calculations, I have assumed that both the dragon and the biped are optimal at both gathering and processing the base resources for and makingfinished installable units, as well as at placing the construction unit. As shown below, the results are astonishing . . . .

Tier IV Scholar Shop Required Base Resources:

80 Bright Sources : 160 applied : 3200 orbs : 6400 bright essence
70 Bright Spheres : 140 applied : 2100 orbs : 4200bright essence

60 cobalt jointing : 120 applied : 2400 bars : 7200 ore
60 cobaltsheeting : 120 applied : 1800 bars : 5400 ore

80 maple braces : 160 applied : 3200 boards : 6400 maple logs
80 maple timbers : 160 applied : 2400 boards : 4800 maple logs

60 obsidian blocks : 120 applied : 2400 bricks : 4800 obsidian slabs
60 obsdian keystones : 120 applied : 1800 bricks : 3600 obslidian slabs

100 silk tapestries: 200 applied : 4000 spools : 8000 unspun silk
100 silk bolts: 200 applied : 3000 spools : 6000 unspun silk

40 Pale sources: 80 applied : 1600 orbs : 3200 pale essence
35 pale spheres: 70 applied : 1050 orbs: 2100 pale essence

30 Iron jointing: 60 applied: 1200 bars : 2400 ore
30 iron sheeting: 60 applied: 900 bars: 1800 ore

40 elm braces: 80 applied: 1600 boards: 3200 logs
40 elm timbers: 80 applied: 1200 boards: 2400 logs

30 slate keystones: 60 applied : 1200 bricks: 2400 slabs
30 slate blocks: 60 applied: 900 bricks: 1800 slabs

50 kenaf tapestries: 100 applied: 2000 spools: 4000 unspun kenaf
50 kenaf bolts: 100 applied: 1500 spools : 3000 unspun kenaf

Total: 83100

Tier IV Essence Chamber Required Base Resources:

Total Metal: 58,800
Total Essence: 17,360
Total Stone: 16,800
Total Crystals: 23,520
Total Gems: 20,160

Total: 136,640

In short, the comparable lair chamber here requires overhalf againas many base resources as the comparable biped shop.

I for one just cannot understand either the logic or desirability of requiringsubstantially moreresources on top of a construction system that makes biped construction seem a walk in the park.

Let me suggest in the very strongest terms that the devs completely rethink the number of either or both (1) the amount of base resources required to make intermediate and finished construction units, and/or (2) the number of finished units required to be installed in lair chambers and corridors.

Edited per corrections by PJ and myself below

[Illi]

The devs previously mentioned that they had reduced the number of placed units required to build lair chambers in order to offset the amount of required resources vis-a-vis comparablebiped structures. In the hours I've spent working on my lair (til I was stopped by the Expert Azulite Focused Crystal bug) I got the very real sense that this reduction in finished units just wasn't making up for the amount of resources I needed to gather for them. So today I put pencil to paper (and calculator to hand) and calculated out the total number of raw resources needed to build a Tier IV biped scholar shop on the one hand, and a comparable Tier IV Essence Chamber on the other. In making these calculations, I have assumed that both the dragon and the biped are optimal at both gathering and processing the base resources for and makingfinished installable units, as well as at placing the construction unit. As shown below, the results are astonishing . . . .

Tier IV Scholar Shop Required Base Resources:

Total Cloth: 5,250
Total Stone: 3,225
Total Wood:3,800
Total Metal:3,150
Total Essence: 3,450

Total: 18,875

Tier IV Essence Chamber Required Base Resources:

Total Metal: 25,200
Total Essence: 17,360
Total Stone: 16,800
Total Crystals: 23,520
Total Gems: 20,160

Total: 103,040

In short, the comparable lair chamber here requires over five times as many base resources as the comparable biped shop.

I for one just cannot understand either the logic or desirability of requiring quintuple resources on top of a construction system that makes biped construction seem a walk in the park.

Let me suggest in the very strongest terms that the devs completely rethink the number of either or both (1) the amount of base resources required to make intermediate and finished construction units, and/or (2) the number of finished units required to be installed in lair chambers and corridors.

*points up*[Y] He makes a very good point. Needs some rethinking devs, now before it's too late please.

[Dragonboy]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Tantalyr wrote: The devs previously mentioned that they had reduced the number of placed units required to build lair chambers in order to offset the amount of required resources vis-a-vis comparablebiped structures. In the hours I've spent working on my lair (til I was stopped by the Expert Azulite Focused Crystal bug) I got the very real sense that this reduction in finished units just wasn't making up for the amount of resources I needed to gather for them. So today I put pencil to paper (and calculator to hand) and calculated out the total number of raw resources needed to build a Tier IV biped scholar shop on the one hand, and a comparable Tier IV Essence Chamber on the other. In making these calculations, I have assumed that both the dragon and the biped are optimal at both gathering and processing the base resources for and makingfinished installable units, as well as at placing the construction unit. As shown below, the results are astonishing . . . .

Tier IV Scholar Shop Required Base Resources:

Total Cloth: 5,250
Total Stone: 3,225
Total Wood:3,800
Total Metal:3,150
Total Essence: 3,450

Total: 18,875

Tier IV Essence Chamber Required Base Resources:

Total Metal: 25,200
Total Essence: 17,360
Total Stone: 16,800
Total Crystals: 23,520
Total Gems: 20,160

Total: 103,040

In short, the comparable lair chamber here requires over five times as many base resources as the comparable biped shop.

I for one just cannot understand either the logic or desirability of requiring quintuple resources on top of a construction system that makes biped construction seem a walk in the park.

Let me suggest in the very strongest terms that the devs completely rethink the number of either or both (1) the amount of base resources required to make intermediate and finished construction units, and/or (2) the number of finished units required to be installed in lair chambers and corridors.

*points up*[img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-21.gif[/img] He makes a very good point. Needs some rethinking devs, now before it's too late please.

I reckon the only rethinking that is done will be an increased resource requirement for biped plot buildings with a factor of 5...
Realisticly speaking -> How many resources do you need when you wanna build a house...?
Probably a lot more then its requirement...

BUT also from a realistic point of view is that Lair chambers only require materials to reinforce the chamber so it wont collapse and to make those nice water/magma flows...
A chamber is dug out of a piece of rock...
This can never require extreme amounts of resources (except maybe diamonds if they use a battery powered diamond tipped drill[;)]), you only end up with massive amounts of junk...

[LaughingOtter]

Nice example, Tantalyr. I think "unreasonable" is a good description.

Maybe hard numbers will provide a convincing argument. T3 hall vs. T3 guildhouse? T2 lair vs. fiendish large house? T5 pawns?

I don't think relative parity in numbers of required resources is too much to ask for.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

well Tant you've only proved what many of us have been "suspecting"...

so this doesn't surprise me..

What would surprise me is that the devs actually go back and rework the numbers...

Somehow I don't see it ever happening, but yea it would be a little bit more fair to say reduce that total down to maybe..30K even? if not 20K..heh...

that's just beyond ridiculous...

[^o)][8-)][8o|]

[PJ]

When you make posts like these, its good to have accurate numbers:

t4 Scholar shop uses

80 Bright Sources : 160 applied : 3200 orbs : 6400 bright essence
70 Bright Spheres : 140 applied : 2100 orbs : 4200bright essence

60 cobalt jointing : 120 applied : 2400 bars : 7200 ore
60 cobaltsheeting : 120 applied : 1800 bars : 5400 ore

80 maple braces : 160 applied : 3200 boards : 6400 maple logs
80 maple timbers : 160 applied : 2400 boards : 4800 maple logs

60 obsidian blocks : 120 applied : 2400 bricks : 4800 obsidian slabs
60 obsdian keystones : 120 applied : 1800 bricks : 3600 obslidian slabs

100 silk tapestries: 200 applied : 4000 spools : 8000 unspun silk
100 silk bolts: 200 applied : 3000 spools : 6000 unspun silk

40 Pale sources: 80 applied : 1600 orbs : 3200 pale essence
35 pale spheres: 70 applied : 1050 orbs: 2100 pale essence

30 Iron jointing: 60 applied: 1200 bars : 2400 ore
30 iron sheeting: 60 applied: 900 bars: 1800 ore

40 elm braces: 80 applied: 1600 boards: 3200 logs
40 elm timbers: 80 applied: 1200 boards: 2400 logs

30 slate keystones: 60 applied : 1200 bricks: 2400 slabs
30 slate blocks: 60 applied: 900 bricks: 1800 slabs

50 kenaf tapestries: 100 applied: 2000 spools: 4000 unspun kenaf
50 kenaf bolts: 100 applied: 1500 spools : 3000 unspun kenaf

83100 raw resources

So there is a difference, but nearlyso pronounced.

[Talitha]

Tier IV Scholar Shop Required Base Resources:
Total: 18,875

Tier IV Essence Chamber Required Base Resources:
Total: 103,040

[:|] .............


Holy piles of resources, Batman! [:S]

[:(] ....no wonder I've beenflapping up and down Lesser Aradoth all ruddy night for a few flowstones...

[st]

[AA0]

Jman scholar shop...
Bright Essence Construction Source 80 x 40 x 2 = 6400
Bright Essence Construction Sphere 70 x 30 x 2 = 5400
Cobalt Construction Jointing 60 x 40 x 2 = 4800
Cobalt Construction Sheeting 60 x 30 x 2 = 3600
Elm Construction Braces 40 x 40 x 2 = 3200
Elm Construction Timber 40 x 30 x 2 = 2400
Iron Construction Jointing 30 x 40 x 2 = 2400
Iron Construction Sheeting 30 x 30 x 2 = 1800
Kenaf Construction Bolt 50 x 30 x 2 = 3000
Kenaf Construction Tapestries 50 x 40 x 2 = 4000
Maple Construction Braces 80 x 40 x 2 = 6400
Maple Construction Timber 80 x 30 x 2 = 4800
Obsidian Construction Block 60 x 30 x 2 = 3600
Obsidian Construction Keystones 60 x 40 x 2 = 4800
Pale Essence Construction Source 40 x 40 x 2 = 3200
Pale Essence Construction Sphere 35 x 30 x 2 = 2100
Silk Construction Bolt 100 x 30 x 2 = 6000
Silk Construction Tapestries 100 x 40 x 2 = 8000
Slate Construction Block 30 x 30 x 2 = 1800
Slate Construction Keystones 30 x 40 x 2 =2400

Total 80,100

Keep in mind that there is a major screw up of these buildings using t2 instead of t3 resources, so there should be about 93,000 resources. It is close, you have to transport fewer bulky resources to a plot, but more steps to combine... you also have 1 class, not 5.

[AA0]

PJ beat me, hehe... and our totals are off a bit... I didn't account for cobalt being an 3 part alloy, but you are way over reacting... learn the grind. Construction sucks.

[Tantalyr]

Actually, I was off on both as I forgot to calculate in the effect of making alloys for the Tier III and IV units which require them for both lair/shop. So, adding in the nickel and cobalt you need for the lair essence chamber, the total base resources you need are . . . *drum roll* . . . .

136,640

My apologies for forgetting the 20 multiple in the biped construction and the effect of the need for multiple ores for alloys in both sets of calculations.

So newly revised bottom line is that the lair essence chamber requires over 50% more resources than the comparable biped scholar shop. And this on top of the fact that you cannot create ANY finishing lairshaping unit in a single field as is done with biped construction--meaning a TON of porting and fighting the portal lag monster.

AAO, I have learned the grind. My dragon is a level 68 lairshaper, despite being stopped dead on working his lair due to the showstopping expert focused crystal bug. And my main has a 60x60 plot with a Tier IV guildhouse, a Tier IV smithy, a Tier IV consigner/PB, four Tier III silos and a ton of trees--all of which he built himself save for the enchanting.

The point I try to make here is that the lairshaping system is hella complicated as it is without requiring dragons to gather substantially more resources for comparable shops. When designing any system in a game a dev should think "How can I make this fun and interesting?" Not "How can I make this a huge grind?" The lairshaping system as it stands is much more the latter than the former. And it has disgruntled a LOT of dragons who have been here since day 1 of launch awaiting their lairs.

[Talitha]

The point I try to make here is that the lairshaping system is hella complicated as it is without requiring dragons to gather substantially more resources for comparable shops. When designing any system in a game a dev should think "How can I make this fun and interesting?" Not "How can I make this a huge grind?" The lairshaping system as it stands is much more the latter than the former. And it has disgruntled a LOT of dragons who have been here since day 1 of launch awaiting their lairs.

I agree, Lairshaping should not be painful. While yes, it should be longer than Crafting, and challenging to find and process the resources, it shouldn't be something that we tryand try andgrind and grindfor 20 levels and then quit in frustration when we haven't even completed three corridors for all the leveling, processing, and hauling we've done.

As a matter of fact, I don't think any class construction should "suck." <_< That would defeat the entire purpose of this being a game. ^_^; Fun, y'know?

Lairshaping should not be insta-complete (or we're all "Done, next victim? Bored..."), nor should it be horrendously slow and agonizingly long-winded to build. Can we find a happy medium?

^_^

[st]

[Goriax]

So in summary dragons have to get 50% more resources in exchange for not having to bother with multiple classes.

[Tantalyr]

So in summary dragons have to get 50% more resources in exchange for not having to bother with multiple classes.

You forget, Goriax, that we do have a new class--Lairshaping, complete with its own subclass, Crystalshaping.

And if you've ever played a biped construction crafter, you know just how easy and quick it is to get up to at least Tier IV in ALL construction classes . . . .

[Devast]

And dont forget that lairshaping is the only school that has been "fixed" so that we don't get any experience from making the intermediate resources and we get the added bonus of all the extra steps. Boy are we lucky! NOT!!! <wanders off to wisp island to get about the 5th marble tarbash disc full of pale orbs to continue working on his first T2 chamber>

Devast

[Tantalyr]

And dont forget that lairshaping is the only school that has been "fixed" so that we don't get any experience from making the intermediate resources and we get the added bonus of all the extra steps. Boy are we lucky! NOT!!! <wanders off to wisp island to get about the 5th marble tarbash disc full of pale orbs to continue working on his first T2 chamber>

Devast

And unlike bipeds, we don't get lairshaping or crystalshaping xp from processing raw resources or making scales, or claws, or scalepacks, or . . . .

[AA0]

But your exp gets compensated for the end product, so you aren't losing anything.
Its just been a couple weeks and people are in their 80s in lairshaping, so its not that bad for exp.

Anyways you grossly miscalculated something... again
You don't have 136k resources, the added total is 111, which isn't that much more.

[Tantalyr]

Actually, I put in the wrong number on the metal--corrected now. The total is correct.

[imported_Robins]

The Dragon Tier IV also gives 20% more of a bonus to skills compared to the Journeyman shop. +60 for the Tier IV chambersas opposed to the +50 of a Journeyman shop.

[Illi]

The Dragon Tier IV also gives 20% more of a bonus to skills compared to the Journeyman shop. +60 for the Tier IV chambersas opposed to the +50 of a Journeyman shop.

Which still doesn't compensate for that much difference in resource reqs......no matter how many people say this isn't bad, it is. Sorry.

[AA0]

I'm sorry... how could being an alloy possibly make something that uses 3 instead of 2 pieces jump from 25 to 58k? That doesn't fly...