A Comparison of Required Resources for Lair Chambers and Biped Shops

[Goriax]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Goriax wrote: So in summary dragons have to get 50% more resources in exchange for not having to bother with multiple classes.

You forget, Goriax, that we do have a new class--Lairshaping, complete with its own subclass, Crystalshaping.

And if you've ever played a biped construction crafter, you know just how easy and quick it is to get up to at least Tier IV in ALL construction classes . . . .

There's only one school which has to be leveled -- lairshaping.

And it's unlikely bipeds will have such an easy time leveling multiple schools once TG gets around to redesigning those schools to also get experience only on the final products.

Although I agree that right now it appears to be more work for dragons. Less then 50% more work, but more work. If that bugs you well, that's life.

[Kitimandiri]

I agree it should be tough, but THAT tough?!? o_O

I can haul resources at max efficiency and barely complete 50% of a t2 crafting room

[Dragoniade]

Not only Lair room take up to 50% more ressource, they take up to 9 times more space for the same benefit.

Take silos and shops for instance. The higher the tier, the more space they take to build. However, the same for a bipeds silo and shop doesn't apply. Only house and Guild House have increasing footpring on a plot, while every structure get bigger on a lair.

In summarry, every structure are inferior.

I can understand that lairs should be more complicated because we only get one schools, but it doesn't mean we should work more for less.

[imported_Robins]

"Tier IV Essence Chamber Required Base Resources:

Total Metal: 58,800
Total Essence: 17,360
Total Stone: 16,800
Total Crystals: 23,520
Total Gems: 20,160

Total: 136,640"

"When you make posts like these, its good to have accurate numbers:"

I think you will find these numbers are more accurate:

Tier IV Essence Chamber Required Base Resources:

Total Metal: 35,840
Total Essence: 30,240
Total Stone: 25,760
Total Crystals: 15,120
Total Gems: 20,160

Total: 127,120

Still much more then a Journeyman shop but less then posted at first.

[Tantalyr]

To compare apples to apples, here are the resources calculations for a biped vault and a lair vault, both of which serve precisely the same function with no bonuses.

Biped Vault:

25 placed Kenaf Tapestries=50 total=1000 spools=2000 base thread
50 placed Cotton Tapestries=100 total=2000 spools=4000 base thread
40 placed Slate Keystones=80 total=1600 bricks=3200 slabs
75 placed Granite Keystones=150 total=3000 bricks=6000 slabs
75 placed Oak Braces=150 total=3000 boards=6000 logs
40 placed Elm Braces=80 total=1600 boards=3200 logs
60 placed Steel Joints=120 total=2400 steel bars=7200 ore
30 placed Iron Joints=60 total=1200 bars=2400 ore
30 placed Glowing Sources=60 total=1200 orbs=2400 essence
15 placed Pale Sources=30 total=600 orbs=1200 essence
30 placed Glowing Spheres=60 total=900 orbs=1800 essence
15 placed Pale Spheres=30 total=450 orbs=900 essence
160 placed Granite Blocks=320 total=4800 bricks=9600 slabs
80 placed Slate Blocks=160 total=2400 bricks=4800 slabs
160 placed Oak Timbers=320 total=4800 boards=9600 logs
80 placed Elm Timbers=160 total=2400 boards=4800 logs
50 placed Cotton Bolts=100 total=1500 spools=3000 base thread
60 placed Steel Sheets=120 total=1800 steel bars=5400 ore
30 placed Iron Sheets=60 total=900 bars=1800 ore

Totals:

Metal Ore:16,800
Stone Slabs: 23,600
Wood Logs: 23,600
Essence: 6300
Base Thread: 10,500

Total Base Resources for Biped Vault: 80,800

Lair Vault:

42 placed Imbued Silver Bars=84 total=1260 bars + 1260 orbs=2520 ore + 2520 essence
42 placed Imbued Gold Bars=84 total=1260 bars + 1260 orbs=2520 ore + 2520 essence
35 placed Amber Lattices=70 total=1400 tri-cut gems +1400 focused crystals=8400 gems +2800 crystals
35 placed Cerulean Lattices=70 total=1400 tri-cut gems +1400 focused crystals=8400 gems +2800 crystals
28 placed Smooth Maelstones=56 total=1120 lodestones=2240 bars + 2240 slabs > combine with 2240 orbs=4480 essence
28 placed Flawed Maelstones=56 total=1120 lodestones=2240 bars + 2240 slabs > combine with 2240 orbs=4480 essence
42 placed Smooth Flowstones=84 total=1680 cast stones=3360 bricks + 3360 essence > combine with 3360 steel bars=10,080 ore
42 placedFlawed Flowstones=84 total=1680 cast stones=3360 bricks + 3360 essence > combine with 3360 bars=6,720 ore
56 placed Primal Essence of Combining=112 total=1680focused crystals+ 1680 orbs=3360crystals + 3360 essence
56 placed Primal Essence of Fusion=112 total=1680focused crystals+ 1680 orbs=3360crystals + 3360 essence
28 placed Strong Excoriations of Earth=56 total=840 steel bars + 840 bricks=2520 ore + 1680 slabs
28 placedMild Excoriations of Earth=56 total=840 bars + 840 bricks=1680 ore + 1680 slabs

Totals:

Metal Ore: 35,000
Stone Slabs: 21,280
Essence: 27,440
Crystals: 12,320
Gems: 16,800

Total Base Resources for Lair Vault: 112,840

As you can see, though plot and lair vaults serve exactly the same function, dragons are required to gather and process32,040 more base resources for their vaults than bipeds are for theirs. That's a big number.

My question is why?

Edited after equation error caught in my spreadsheet

[Lumineux]

So in summary dragons have to get 50% more resources and add a bunch of steps to product crafting in exchange for not having to bother with multiple classes.

Fixed.

[Nikodemus]

2,013,200 raw resources at an average rate of 10 raw ressources / 2 seconds (Which seems to be the average I get with T5 ressources using T3 teched crafting scales) would require about 112 hours of grinding just to collect them.

Add to that the travelling / transport times and costs and whatever more time you spend on creating the intermediate and final products and the time it takes you to apply those.

T6 Lunus Grand Hall... 200 hours + till done.

Waaaaaaay. Too. Long.
I've got other stuff to build too.

[imported_Rhyssa]

One other teensy little figure you might want to take into account here: craft levels.

Assuming both the dragon and the biped need level 60 to be optimal on everything for the vault and level 80 to be optimal on eerything for the T4 scholar/essence shop.

The dragon needs 60 craft levels for his vault.
The biped needs 300 craft levels for his vault.

The dragon needs 80 craft levels for his T4 essence shop.
The biped needs 400 craft levels for his T4 scholar shop.

One more figure to take into account because of this difference: the amount of resources needed to reach those levels. No idea what it is and no way to calculate it. It will be a lot more than 5 times the level difference though, because dragons get good experience for placing. Bipeds get minimal experiance for placing and therefore have to collect a lot more resources to make some other item such as tools in order to level. The exception is enchanter, and they have to make a whole lot of orbs to level (orbs being a basic processed resource which gives minimal experiance).

One other thing to consider, what happens to all the resources that both the dragon and the biped use?
All of the dragon's resources go on his lair, it may be a lot of time and work, but at the end you have something to show for it.

Biped builders are forced to make and decon other items to level, unless they can find 10 other plots to build as well, which will leave 10 other bipeds unable to level their construction schools. What do they have to show for all that levelling? nothing.

Let's be generous and say that each school actually uses the same amount of resources to level (completely unrealistic but no way of calculating how many more bipeds use).

For example:
The dragon uses 1,000,000 resources and they're all on his lair when he's done.
The biped uses 5,000,000 resources and at the end around 700,000 are on his plot, the rest all vanished into the levelling black hole.

p.s. I have both a dragon and a biped, and both a lair and have been through several different plots.

[Fratricide]

All I can say is that if you all spent as much time in game working on your lairs/laircrafting, you would all be a lot closer to where you want to be.

Also... I would think that the whole amount of resources required was completely thought out... Imagine... Look at the actual Massiveness and scale of the whole lair. The smallest "Room" in there is what a straight hallway. even with that.. that unit takes up what a 24m x 24m x 24m space... and how many unit spaces is a T4 essence room... 48m x 48m x 24m Now you can't even Honestly tell me that you wouldn't realistically require more materials to reinforce those ceilings, walls, and floors so you wouldn't have issues with caveins. If you just look at a journeyman Biped shop compared to a Dragon(especially an Ancient) you cant tell me that there is no Definite size difference between the T4 essence Lair unit compared to the Jman scholar shop.

Anyway... I spose you all just want it = like it used to be... take away the lairs... don't need laircrafting... don't need crystalshapers... don't need all that, cause the Dragons want it =. Personally I would rather it be slightly more realistic material requirement wise... that just proves to me that the req's were not necessarily an afterthought, but a well thought out and planned consequence to the size requirements to be able to fit Ancient Dragons in the lairs.

[Dragoniade]

This is because most current biped buildings are 'oldstyle' general structures, not the new racial buildings. Only human silos, human libraries, human taverns, human gambling halls, human houses, and human guildhouses have been converted to the new constuction style. With the exception of silos all of these stuctures have increasing footprints per tier. Silos have an increased footprint every second tier, and are taller each tier (which does notmatter at the current time).

When the artists get around to creating all the other racial structures they will all have increasing footprints as their tier increase.

I wasn't refereing to the 'oldstyle' aka GrandFather structure. The 'Human' silo are tiered.
Each Tier carry the same amount as those Dragon Storage.
However.
Tier 1, 3 and 5 all share the same footprint for an increasing capacity per tier.
Tier 2, 4 and 6 all share the same footprint, which is smaller than the previous 3.

Moving from Tier 1 to tier 2 take more space, but going from Tier 2 to Tier 3 take less space. And so on for each parity.

So, on a plot, in a defined space, you can build the same quantity of silo, which ever tier you want, as long as they have the same parity.

Build Tier 1 Silo. As your construction progress (and so your need for BULK), you can upgrade those silo by 2 tier in the same space. It's not because you get an higher Tier that you're going to get less bulk wasted on space, unless you decide to change parity.

In the space that it took to build, lets say, 12 T1 silos for 240'000 bulks, if someone would decide to upgrade them to Tier 5, they would get 816'000 bulks!
A dragon that would follow the same pattern would only get 136'000 bulks. More than 6 time less.

If artists decide to release increasing footprint per increasing tier, I don't see how player would want them. I see it that way: Current human silo get changed so that each increasing Tier take more space. Current Silo wouldn't be working anymore, so they would have to be destroyed and rebuilt. If they decide to keep the old silo, then it would be totally unfair for new builders.
If they decide to keep those old human silo and introduce new ones, then why would people would build those new silo?
If you're offered between 2 silos of the same size, one of which can hold 6 to 9 more bulk than the other, except it look less 'fancy', which one will you take?

Biped, once again, will be offered choice. Dragons are never given choice. Take this and choke on it. That's kind of what David let out in chat: choke on it. You don't like how that time of silo works, build the second model. Can dragon have a choice in how their silos work? Nope.

Enough already with the 'dragon are all clone' already.

[Death-knell]

One other teensy little figure you might want to take into account here: craft levels.

Assuming both the dragon and the biped need level 60 to be optimal on everything for the vault and level 80 to be optimal on eerything for the T4 scholar/essence shop.

The dragon needs 60 craft levels for his vault.
The biped needs 300 craft levels for his vault.

The dragon needs 80 craft levels for his T4 essence shop.
The biped needs 400 craft levels for his T4 scholar shop.

One more figure to take into account because of this difference: the amount of resources needed to reach those levels. No idea what it is and no way to calculate it. It will be a lot more than 5 times the level difference though, because dragons get good experience for placing. Bipeds get minimal experiance for placing and therefore have to collect a lot more resources to make some other item such as tools in order to level. The exception is enchanter, and they have to make a whole lot of orbs to level (orbs being a basic processed resource which gives minimal experiance).

One other thing to consider, what happens to all the resources that both the dragon and the biped use?
All of the dragon's resources go on his lair, it may be a lot of time and work, but at the end you have something to show for it.

Biped builders are forced to make and decon other items to level, unless they can find 10 other plots to build as well, which will leave 10 other bipeds unable to level their construction schools. What do they have to show for all that levelling? nothing.

Let's be generous and say that each school actually uses the same amount of resources to level (completely unrealistic but no way of calculating how many more bipeds use).

For example:
The dragon uses 1,000,000 resources and they're all on his lair when he's done.
The biped uses 5,000,000 resources and at the end around 700,000 are on his plot, the rest all vanished into the levelling black hole.

p.s. I have both a dragon and a biped, and both a lair and have been through several different plots.

Theres a lot of nonsense in this post, a biped who chooses to con/decon chooses to waste his/her materials that has nothing to do with the topic. There are plenty of biped plots to work on!

And dragons aren't given a choice, you build and apply or lose a good chunk of XP and waste material. Also, dragons have to gather a LOT more resources to make one building block then bipeds do AND hit more resource fields. And on top of that they get NO gathering XP for all that effort. So don't give me this "dragons get more XP for applying" crap, we have a helluva lot more work for it and many more resources to gather.

[Vlisson]

argl

interesting post

i have a biped crafter (all non-metall and non-stone produkts for t5) and it has been easy to get them done, and now i train my lairshaper for a good time (but i enjoy it)

but to have to use a lot of more resources than a biped seems not fair to me

digging a lot of different stuff, using 12 different formulars to get the finishing products is OK, but not to apply 50k units more :(

[imported_Lycaunoss]

One other teensy little figure you might want to take into account here: craft levels.

Assuming both the dragon and the biped need level 60 to be optimal on everything for the vault and level 80 to be optimal on eerything for the T4 scholar/essence shop.

The dragon needs 60 craft levels for his vault.
The biped needs 300 craft levels for his vault.

The dragon needs 80 craft levels for his T4 essence shop.
The biped needs 400 craft levels for his T4 scholar shop.

One more figure to take into account because of this difference: the amount of resources needed to reach those levels. No idea what it is and no way to calculate it. It will be a lot more than 5 times the level difference though, because dragons get good experience for placing. Bipeds get minimal experiance for placing and therefore have to collect a lot more resources to make some other item such as tools in order to level. The exception is enchanter, and they have to make a whole lot of orbs to level (orbs being a basic processed resource which gives minimal experiance).

I'm just not buying this. Yes they do require more levels but until the change to the way bipeds level their crafts is put in place they are able to level far faster than any dragon at building. Remember all our xp comes from building the final product (20%) and applying that product to our lair (80%). I'd give anything to be able to level from doing even marble bricks because I'd be far higher level than I am right now off just a single load I think.

My only complaint about lairshaping right now is that there is a ton of what I would call waste because of the high ratio's needed for making the final products. What needs to change is that ratio going down and perhaps the number of units required needs to go up a bit. Thanks to that lairshaping is a total grind and it doesn't need to be. I'd really like to feel like I'm accomplishing something. Even if I'm not going any faster than I am right now.

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

I think Lair Crafting resources are over the top. Its been out for what?A few weeks? I'm sure there will be changes made - just like the changes that were made for biped walls, tiles, paths and treesetc (anyone remember how many resources those took to make - and how long did it take to get that toned down?).

I really doubt Dragons will have to wait as long, if said dragons send in feedback over it. TG has already demonstrated thier wanting to optimize such things. Did they go over board? I would say, YES. Can a lair be compared to a biped plot in complexity/eye candy? Based on what I've seen, NO.

[Oakleif]

I don't know any specifics about numbers of resources, intermediate products, or finished products for biped crafting, but I offer my spreadsheet on dragon crafting resources (linked in my sig) for anyone who is familiar with biped crafting and wants to use it to make such a comparison.

The spreadsheet allows you to enter your actual crafting ratios and application ratios for each tier, so you can get an accurate number for the number of resources needed for your level. I've also updated the spreadsheets with a cell for the total raw resources needed per tier.

[imported_Rhyssa]

My only complaint about lairshaping right now is that there is a ton of what I would call waste because of the high ratio's needed for making the final products. What needs to change is that ratio going down and perhaps the number of units required needs to go up a bit. Thanks to that lairshaping is a total grind and it doesn't need to be. I'd really like to feel like I'm accomplishing something. Even if I'm not going any faster than I am right now.

Why do you call it waste because of the high ratios? It's still all being used on your lair.

Don't you get more of a sense of accomplishment from doing something that requires a lot of effort, rather than something that's really easy? (This is to everyone, not you personally).

My dragon is level 34 lairshaping and I've barely done any Tier 2 work, almost all of those levels have come from Tier 1 stuff, and I haven't even finished the first level of my lair. Every other dragon I know around the same level is at the same point. The dragons I know who are working t4 stuff are only at the third level of their plots (ie level 2). My dragon will be level 100 lair shaping long before I get my lair finished. There is absolutely no way I could get a single one of my biped construction schools to 100 just working on my plot. I probably couldn't even build jm buildings if i didn't make/decon tools etc to level. (Keep in mind that bipeds don't get much experience for actually placing building units).

I know dragons don't get the choice to make/decon to level, but why would you want it? It's a boring waste of time and resources.

It would be interesting to hear from other players who have both a dragon and a biped builder and see which system they prefer.

I know the building process is complicated, but surely I'm not the only one who finds bulding a lair satisfying?

[imported_Rhyssa]

Yes they do require more levels but until the change to the way bipeds level their crafts is put in place they are able to level far faster than any dragon at building.

You're quite right, bipeds can level construction schools way faster than a dragon can, but what's the point in levelling fast?

In the end, they'll both be level 100, the dragon will have a lair to show for his work, and the biped could, if he wished, have done no building at all and have nothing to show for it.

[dorrin]

well, i'm not sure i count as one who has a biped builder.. since it's only done one real construction project.. a sidewalk for a friend.
most of the levelling has been from tools/clothing/etc. i have miner/gatherer and all 5 construction schools with siechter and if you can manage to get yourself good cargo gear it really is quite easy to level relatively quickly to 60 anyway. i've slowed down getting to 80 but i also haven't been playing him as much .. and now with lairshaping not at all.

one of the problems is.. well, at least to me.. all of the lairshaping formulae make sense.. requiring 2 refined or unrefined of component resources to make midway products and 15/15 or 20/20. if you're going to set it up to use multple resources and use intermediate products .. it all makes sense as-is. about the only change i can see working is removing mid-ways.. which i don't see happening.
it doesn't _have_ to be time consuming to be rewarding... but honestly.. biped construction is also very time consuming. i don't know if it's a comparable amount of time or not to make things... but it was said they tried to make it comparable.
we're definitely in the minority, rhyssa, heh. i won't say i'm 100 % satisfied, but i'm ok with what we have.

[imported_Lycaunoss]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Lycaunoss wrote:

My only complaint about lairshaping right now is that there is a ton of what I would call waste because of the high ratio's needed for making the final products. What needs to change is that ratio going down and perhaps the number of units required needs to go up a bit. Thanks to that lairshaping is a total grind and it doesn't need to be. I'd really like to feel like I'm accomplishing something. Even if I'm not going any faster than I am right now.



Why do you call it waste because of the high ratios? It's still all being used on your lair.

Don't you get more of a sense of accomplishment from doing something that requires a lot of effort, rather than something that's really easy? (This is to everyone, not you personally).

My dragon is level 34 lairshaping and I've barely done any Tier 2 work, almost all of those levels have come from Tier 1 stuff, and I haven't even finished the first level of my lair. Every other dragon I know around the same level is at the same point. The dragons I know who are working t4 stuff are only at the third level of their plots (ie level 2). My dragon will be level 100 lair shaping long before I get my lair finished. There is absolutely no way I could get a single one of my biped construction schools to 100 just working on my plot. I probably couldn't even build jm buildings if i didn't make/decon tools etc to level. (Keep in mind that bipeds don't get much experience for actually placing building units).

I know dragons don't get the choice to make/decon to level, but why would you want it? It's a boring waste of time and resources.

It would be interesting to hear from other players who have both a dragon and a biped builder and see which system they prefer.

I know the building process is complicated, but surely I'm not the only one who finds bulding a lair satisfying?

I call it waste because I started with thousands of something and ended up with tens of something else. At max efficiency too. I don't see any xp until I make that final product and I spend 9/10ths of my time making bars/bricks/orbs/gems. I would rather have to make more of the final product at a higher efficiency and be able to see progress a little better.

I don't have a problem with xp only coming from final products and application and I don't have a problem with bi-ped ability to grind tools to level. That is as long as someone doesn't start saying how many more levels the bi-ped has to grind since they are completely non comparable at this point.

[imported_Lycaunoss]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Lycaunoss wrote:

Yes they do require more levels but until the change to the way bipeds level their crafts is put in place they are able to level far faster than any dragon at building.


You're quite right, bipeds can level construction schools way faster than a dragon can, but what's the point in levelling fast?

In the end, they'll both be level 100, the dragon will have a lair to show for his work, and the biped could, if he wished, have done no building at all and have nothing to show for it.

My only point is that people are using the number of levels as reasoning for why lairshaping is so difficult compared to plot building. That's not a terribly good way of putting it. Lets say that lairshaping is complex due mostly to requiring resources from all over the place and biped plot building is simple due to fewer resources required.

I'll agree with you on your second point. In fact I believe that there are a lot of builders out there that have done just that. I believe that they do that because there are benefits to being higher level. I think that the attributes are often higher and that's why they do it. Not the case for dragons which probably needs some adjustment.