Do dragons still need love?

[Barnaby Gump]

I noticed that Kumu has changed their sig from dragons needing love to straight bi-ped bashing. Does this indicate that the races are at least now on par to some extent?

[Theolaerynn]

All races and classes need love, but within that disclaimer I believe Dragons are reletively fine for now. Time for Bi-Peds to get some attention.

[Tribunal]

I actually thought Kumu Honua's sig was very clever, and the one true opponent of a bi-ped is correct. But I'd imagine that rule applies to dragons to more of an extent[H]

[imported_tjl]

lol i really love the 8 armed dwarf.

[LaughingOtter]

I think Kumu's sig is an appeal for biped love, not biped bashing.

[Takora Drakan]

I really love your new sig kumu, laughed my ****** off as i saw it [Y][:P]

[Daedra]

Dragons are now able to age all the way to ancient. Dragons now have Lairs. The two largest missing components to dragons are finally in the game. They are not finished with the dragons in the least, but at least the huge gaping holes have finally been filled.

There are still some problems with lairs at least, bugwise. But yeah, I think bipeds need some lurve now, confectioners being next on the list.

[Death-knell]

I like kuma's avatar of pain *G*

Dragons have gotten lots of love and I think its great. Primary concern should be biped love.

But there are still 2 decent holes in dragondom as I see it. Stoneworking and Smelting quests. And yes I know we can do the hokey pokey and turn ourselves about with biped buffs and banners. BUT that is only effective to get the forms from the cento's!!! To actually work masterlevel stuff you can't! You would have to have a biped following you around and plenty of banners. These quests have been missing longer then lairs.


But I would like to thank Tulga for ancienthood, I enjoyed the quest immensely!!

Lairshaping....well I like finally having it, but you think you could make it a little harder its only going to take me years of solid "lair only" work. It didn't takeus near that long to do our tier 5 guildhall and associated shops on the main guild plot.

[Barnaby Gump]

I know of 2 level 100 lairshapers on Chaos, so while it may be hard, it can't be all that heinous given the extermly short time that some have already reached it.

[Goriax]

I know of 2 level 100 lairshapers on Chaos, so while it may be hard, it can't be all that heinous given the extermly short time that some have already reached it.

Oh it's not all that hard to level lairshaper, especially if you can get some teched scales. (Not quite as easy as it sounds, since the techs haven't been dropping long and only a fewhave many of them yet) Then again, it's not all that hard to level anything in this game.

But don't go drawing conclusions from 2 level 100s. There's always some people who'll play anything 24/7 until they max out; especially when they have holidays and not much else to do with their time.

If you want to draw conclusions about how easy or hard it is, wait until there's many level 100s. Better yet, try it yourself. I'd definately suggest you try it yourself if you're going to be posting about lairshaping or dragons in general.

[Guaran]

LOL @ Goriax.

Have to agree, go give lairshaping a whirl before you comment on it. Build one t1 crafting chamber (the easiest of them to build) and let us know how you think it compares to a biped craft shack.

[Barnaby Gump]

So the parameters of the test will be number of hours in game to take a new dragon to the point of building a Lair T2 Helian Chamber - Essence Shaping, and a bi-ped to the point of building a Beginner Scholar Shop, since bi-peds don't get the option of individually tiered shops. I'll happily do the dragon side of the testing and let you have the pleasure of doing the bi-ped half of the test.

To make it completly fair bricks/bars/boards/orbs/spools whould only be made while in the miner/gatherer schools, and only finished construction items made in the construction schools, no leveling making tools, etc.

If I have this correct that will basically involve taking the dragon to a minimum of level 20 dragon crafting and 20 lair shaping. On the biped side that will involve taking miner and gatherer to level 15 before meeting the requirements to get the construction schools, and then taking miner/gatherer/carpenter/enchanter/fitter/mason/weaver to 20 to be able to do the t2 work at minimum.

We should also include the requirement of having to take blacksmith to 20 to be able to make the tools needed for the construction work as well, which in my mind would be fair given that bi-peds do require tools after all, whereas dragons do not.

Additionally there should be no teched armor/tools/scales, nor buffs or feeding of materials from a higher level character.

Does this sound like a fair and balanced test as you have requested?

[imported_Ssilmath]

Don't forget outfitter to get an upgraded backpack and sack/satchel

[Barnaby Gump]

I would leave that as optional, the trade off of the time in hauling extra resources might not be offset by the amount of time required to grind outfitter up the needed amount to be able to make the t1 sack/satchel/backpack. But then given that I would probably spend the relatively short amount of time to run the dimensional pocket quest it probably should be.

Good catch Sslimath.

[Death-knell]

I know of 2 level 100 lairshapers on Chaos, so while it may be hard, it can't be all that heinous given the extermly short time that some have already reached it.

Not once did I mention leveling, thats easy enough. I'm talking aboout actually building a lair.

[Barnaby Gump]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Barnaby Gump wrote: I know of 2 level 100 lairshapers on Chaos, so while it may be hard, it can't be all that heinous given the extermly short time that some have already reached it.

Not once did I mention leveling, thats easy enough. I'm talking aboout actually building a lair.

Nor did I, but now that you bring it up lets take a look at the 2 structures mentioned above. The units required for a Lair T1 Helian Chamber - Essence Shaping is:

Material Units Skill Imbued Bronze Bar 140 1 Primal Essence of Melding 140 1 Weak Excoriation of Earth 56 1 Rough Flowstone 112 100 Rough Maelstone 56 100 Viridian Crystalline Lattice 84 100

The building material requirements for a Beginner Scholar Shop is:

Material Units Skill Elm Construction Timber 40 200 Iron Construction Sheeting 30 200 Kenaf Construction Bolt 50 200 Pale Essence Construction Sphere 35 200 Slate Construction Block 30 200 Elm Construction Braces 40 300 Iron Construction Jointing 30 300 Kenaf Construction Tapestries 50 300 Pale Essence Construction Source 40 300 Slate Construction Keystones 30 300
So if you only look at the total number of resources (588 v.s. 375) it might look like it would be a lot more work to make the dragon structure. Yet that wouldn't take into account the fact that half of the dragon structure is level 1 items and the other half are level 100 , compared to the bi-ped structure requiring all t2 items with half and half of 200 and 300 skill levels. Add to that the fact that the dragon machines give a higher bonus than do the bi-ped structures that should be factored in as well.

I can't claim that I have yet to do the dragon training and construction (still waitiing for one of the above that suggested that I do so to take up the above bi-ped half of the challenge), and until I do so I won't claim that one is easier than the other from personal experience, but on face value dragon laircrafting still seems ludicrously simple compared to what is required to master the same abilities as a bi-ped.

[Tantalyr]

Barnaby, check the dragon forum for a much fuller discussion on lairshaping. You'll find that it's MONSTROUSLY harder and more time consuming than building biped structures of the same tier.

[dorrin]

um.. yeah, and you might also take into consideration that a t1 dragon machine chamber only gives +15 vs. the beginner shop's +25. sure, a t2 dragon chamber gives +30, but at least we're talking about the same skill items. oh wait, that's right... a t2 dragon chamber requires t1 and t2 items to craft, i.e. skill 1, 100, 200 and 300. hm....

[dorrin]

To make it completly fair bricks/bars/boards/orbs/spools would only be made while in the miner/gatherer schools, and only finished construction items made in the construction schools, no leveling making tools, etc.

why? these are options that are open to bipeds, which makes difference in what they're able to do and how much time it takes them to do it. arguably a large one.

We should also include the requirement of having to take blacksmith to 20 to be able to make the tools needed for the construction work as well, which in my mind would be fair given that bi-peds do require tools after all, whereas dragons do not.

what? .. i don't know anyone unable to find someone to craft tools for them.. not on order anyway. bipeds certainly aren't _required_ to make their own tools.

Additionally there should be no teched armor/tools/scales, nor buffs or feeding of materials from a higher level character.

nor silo use.

[mindlor]

I am confused here....

In a post dated 15 December in the goodbye forum, you announce that you are leaving Barn......

You specifically mention that you will be happy not to have to deal with the bi-ped vs dragon controversies anymore...

If you have changed your mind and have rejoined the game, awesome welcome back!!

If you have not changed your mind then why continue to troll and lay bait for arguments?

Anyway, the bottomline is yes, dragons have gotten love, however, dragons are still gimped in everyway compared to a multi-classed bi ped, both in combat and in crafting.

Dragons have a long way to go.....