Lack of Punishment from Tulga

[AFRPaladin]

2 weeks ago 2 people conspired together to get into another persons account without their knowledge and sell a valuable item and take their Gold. 24 hrs after this incedent all the facts were known about who did what and where the money went. So far the only punishment given to these 2 theives have been letters of warning. Our guild has kicked these 2 people out since we dont trust them anymore. The reason I am writing this is because the should be banned from this game because the did get the username and password from the files of another player and stole money and sold equipment. It has been 2 weeks tulga has promised that more punishment was on the way. Since the facts were known within 24 hrs of the activity I fail to see why it should take so long to take action against these people. I am calling for Pilwyn and Thormor to be banned from the game for theivery.

[imported_GhostRdr]

I too am very surprised there hasnt been anything more done. Logging into someone elses account and taking/selling stuff from someone to give to their own toon is definitely against the EULA. I agree a banning is in order not only because of its against the rules but ethically too. I'm sure sony or blizzard would have done it in the first few days.

[AFRPaladin]

The 2 people live in the same house as a 3rd that were all in the same guild. The account information was given to the 3rd person. The Pilwyn and Thormor then went into the computer loggs of the 3rd person and retrieved the account information from the chat loggs. They then logged in and sold a bloodthorn bow for 3g and transfered more money from the origional account to the second one. From what was told me from the person whose stuff was stolen is that more punishment was on the way. For me it really doesnt matter. The origional account holder did not give them the info nor did he give them permission to logg in and sell his stuff. They diliberatly sold equipment and traded gold that was not theirs. They new what they were doing and one of them has admited to it. Tulga wants to keep this private I assume. What i do know is that is has been confirmed from Devs that both Pilwyn and Thormor worked together to sell the bow and steal the gold. That is enough for me to request that they be booted.

[AFRPaladin]

in Regard to the Eula, GhostRdr is not saying that Tulga is responsible, what he is saying is that it is against the Eula to diliberatly get access to an account other than your own and to take stuff from that account.

[imported_Leannae]

A long time ago (back in the days of Tazoon.com and before merge) there was a thread about the same thing. All 3 parties continued to play for many, many months after the fact. The 2 who tookand the 1 who lost.

Nothing was ever done.

[Menkure]

The 2 people live in the same house as a 3rd that were all in the same guild. The account information was given to the 3rd person. The Pilwyn and Thormor then went into the computer loggs of the 3rd person and retrieved the account information from the chat loggs. They then logged in and sold a bloodthorn bow for 3g and transfered more money from the origional account to the second one. From what was told me from the person whose stuff was stolen is that more punishment was on the way. For me it really doesnt matter. The origional account holder did not give them the info nor did he give them permission to logg in and sell his stuff. They diliberatly sold equipment and traded gold that was not theirs. They new what they were doing and one of them has admited to it. Tulga wants to keep this private I assume. What i do know is that is has been confirmed from Devs that both Pilwyn and Thormor worked together to sell the bow and steal the gold. That is enough for me to request that they be booted.

Two scenarios, if I was the third person:

a) I would contact the landlord, and get the lock changed to the apartment.. and their names removed form the lease. Then, their stuff would be on the curb.. everything.. from clothes, to furniture, to their computers... This is of course if I was the primary individual on the lease, and paying the rent.

b) If they were the primary tenants on the apartment and I was just living in with them, I would quickly find another place to stay.

And while I realize that others may think of that as being a little harsh.. yeah, a bloodthorn bow and in-game possessions are just some data on a server somewhere... if they are willing to break into my computer, browse through personal chat logs, then sell the stuff I worked hard to acquire in an online game... I could not trust them with anything in RL as well. If they are willing to go through that trouble for a little coin in an MMO, what's next? the 140+ year old key wind pocketwatch that my 5th great grandfather carried on him when he was fighting in the Civil War? I wouldn't DARE take that chance.

-Menkure

[imported_Leannae]

If they are willing to go through that trouble for a little coin in an MMO, what's next? the 140+ year old key wind pocketwatch that my 5th great grandfather carried on him when he was fighting in the Civil War? I wouldn't DARE take that chance.

I agree with Menkure here. The other thing I would do is change my passwords on every and any website I go to on a regular basis.. ie banking. Then I would sit down and seriously wonder what motivation caused someone to steal pixels from an imaginary world. If power in a game is the motivation, then someone needs to take a step back away from the computer and discover the OTHER world.

[AFRPaladin]

I dont know what kind of person you are kumu, but I wouldnt ask for someone who did nothing more then to try to help another person out to be kicked from the game. Yes it was his MISTAKE, however, he did nothing morally wrong so i fail to see how you could associate him with the other 2. ******** the rules, this is about morals. 2 people stole from his account. He did not give them access and he did not give them permission. The 2 thieves should be removed from the game.

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

Actually, there'd be quite a few sides to this story... AFP's, the person who gave the PW, the person who recieved the PW, the people who exploited a roommate, and the truth. :P That's what? 5 sides. I'm just sayin'!

But AFP, as much as you don't like to hear it, in the technicalities of the situation, Kumu is correct. Your friend who gave his PW away to someone, whether it was the thieves or not, is just as much at fault as the thieves are. Had he not given his PW away to someone, the problem would have never happened. He broke EULA just as much as the thieves did. Morals has nothing to do with this particular part of the situation. As Kumu pointed out, as "wrong" as it may seem, TG is under no legal obligation to act any further and if they did they would have to address BOTH EULA violations, not pick and choose. I doubt you want that.

Now, if you wish to play on the morality of the situation, then it would best be served rallying the populace of Chaos to ostracise the offenders and convincing the roommate of said offenders that they should be living elsewhere. Morality is something the community needs to deal with and not expect the company running the game to get involved with because it can cause a LOT of legal problems.

[AFRPaladin]

If it werent for one reason i wouldnt have made this post. If the 2 thieves arent banned from the game the person whose account was stolen from is going to cancel his account. So as to them enforcing the EULA on all 3 accounts i would support that action, because at least 2 less thieves would be in chaos, and I still will lose a friend if nothing is done.

[imported_Leannae]

If the 2 thieves arent banned from the game the person whose account was stolen from is going to cancel his account.

The math is simple here... let 2 stay and lose 1 or ban 2 and keep 1.

Harsh fact is: business is business. If you were in their shoes and trying to make a buck, which would you choose?

When it happened almost 1 1/2 years ago, it was the same. The only difference was the 3rd party was NOT living in the same household yet nothing was done. The password had been given in good faith. It mattered not that it wasn't used as intended and items/money were stolen.

To search a log for the password, granted isn't exactly the same as giving it out, but it was still given at some point to someone.

[LaughingOtter]

Giving up your password is an invitation to get ripped off. The victim has my sympathies, but there was no failure on Tulga's part. There is also no conclusive proof that Pilwyn and Thormor are guilty. The facts given also support a theory where the original owner of the bow sold it willingly and then fabricated the allegations against Pilwyn and Thormor as a ploy to get TG to reimburse him for the cash and give him a replacement bow. The person who was entrusted with the password could be the guilty party.

We don't know. We can't know. Knowing requires the presentation of provable fact. Right now, the only fact which can be proven is that the bow was sold and some items were transferred. Even if the server logs verify that the victim provided login information in chat, that doesn't prove the login information providedwas correct.

Each of us will have to make up our own mind about these allegations, but Tulga is not at fault and no compensation is owed. There was no failure of their systems or security. This was, sadly, user error. Even if Pilwyn and Thormor are 100% guilty (which I have no problem believing), there's no proof of wrongdoing and no basis for a ban without additional, provable facts being presented.

[Darkgloom]

Well, in-game punishment is just as good. HZ is a pretty tight community, and if ya get enough people to put them in their "enemies" list (yes I have one in my player list for people that tick me off) then it could hurt them in the long run. You just don't buy anything from those in your "enemies" list, you tell all your friends about them, and if you hate em enough do stuff you would never do to anyone else, KSing them and RSing them. The fact is, that you can make them not WANT to play while doing nothing technically illegal gamewise at all I wouldn't even send em nasty tells (those are illegal). You have enough people gang up on em and they tend to fade away from the game and go play some other game. Some people just shouldn't play HZ.

I don't really like the fact of causing Tulga to loose a customer or two, but it looks like, with attitudes like that, they would drive more new players away than it would hurt to just get rid of the two of them. HZ is a type of a family, don't bother Tulga, take care of it yourself, keep it in the family *italian accent*.

I guess this is a bit of my evil side showing, lol.

Darkgloom

[imported_tjl]

Giving up your password is an invitation to get ripped off. The victim has my sympathies, but there was no failure on Tulga's part. There is also no conclusive proof that Pilwyn and Thormor are guilty.

no there is proof. I can't post it, because I am not involved.

[LaughingOtter]

no there is proof. I can't post it, because I am not involved.

Don't assume I'm defending the accused parties. I think they should be gone, too, along with a couple others I can think of. My position is that this is not Tulga's fault or Tulga's responsability to fix, because there was no system failure on Tulga's part.

People might as well be angry at the police for not charging them with felony theft.

[Darkgloom]

I know, I guess I was stating what I would LIKE to do, if someone did that to one of my friends, not what I would actually do. Sometimes I have problems keepin' my inside voice inside. And, although I do think not buying their stuff, grouping with them, etc. (passive stuff), would be ok (you wouldn't buy things from someone that has harmed you or your friends in some way), I don't really agree with the "harassment" I was talking about, KSing and RSing, I just got a little carried away. Although I joke about "the meds" in my sig, it's acually true, so please forgive me for my oversite earlier, I was a bit loopy at the time.


Darkgloom

[Tantalyr]

Just to emphasize a couple of points made earlier in this thread . . .

1) As Laughing Otter has rightly pointed out, Tulga (and every other MMO I've ever played) specifically warns players in the EULA to never, ever, ever give your login information to anyone else, as that really is just an invitation to lose your pixels, if not your account entirely. Let me give you some actual examples from my days of playing Ultima Online:

a) One of the most renowned players on the Lake Superior shard showed a then-very-valued friend of his the game while the friend was visiting his house one afternoon. Unbeknown to the player, the friend watched over his shoulder as the player typed in his login information. Three days later, the friend bought a copy of UO, logged in as the player, and eBayed everything the player had--houses, rares and all the rest.

b) Another player I knew shared an account with his younger brother. After a RL argument between the two, the brother logged in on the player's account and stood in the most populated area of the game shouting racial epithets. The account was instantly and permanently banned as a result, and the player lost everything he had accumulated in over two years of playing.

c) And the absolute worst example . . . . A RL husband and wife couple in my UO guild went through a nasty RL divorce. Wifey logged in one day on husband's account and eBayed every single pixel he had accumulated during his three years playing the game.

So, as Laughing Otter has rightly stated, Tulga is under no obligation at all to do anything here. They warn everyone not to give out login info for this very reason. I truly empathize with the OP's friend, here, but you can't shove the blame for the friend's naivete off on Tulga.

2) Be VERY careful about organizing witch hunts based on one side of the story as thereis almost always another version of the circumstances described by just one of the participants. While the story presented by the OP certainly appears damning, I've seen way too many instances of a story presented in an initial post being easily explained away.

And for Heaven's sake do NOT violate the EULA yourself by harassing another player whom you believe to be a cuprit in some nefarious activity. You (and the community at large) are better off simply ostracizing the offending player--not selling to or buying from the player, not hunting with him, not resurrecting him, etc. As an example, soon after the game launched over two years ago, a certain guild on the Dawn server admitted to using a gross exploit to purchase prime plots on an island which was not available to other, honest players. Though Tulga took those plots away from the guild members, it took no other punitive action. The Dawn community, however, completely ostracized the guild by having no dealings at all with members of the guild. Within a month, the guild had dwindled from over 100 members down to half a dozen, and shortly thereafter collapsed completely.

Ostracism may not be as immediate as suspension or banning, but if organized on a community-wide basis it will have the same effect.

[LaughingOtter]

One more minor point: Tulga will not discuss or divulge what actions, if any, it takes against specific accounts. In the past, the most that has been said was "appropriate actions were taken against the offending accounts". Even in the case of a suspension or banning, you're not going to hear anything about a specific account. There may be something else going on, but the only ones who would know would be Tulga and the account holder.

[Pariah]

TG knows exactly what happened they spent a FULL day investigating it, they also know that the bow was stolen an by what accts.This is not speculation THEY KNOW who the guilty people are they have looked at the chat records and spoken to everyone involved, they also know that the bow was not sold by the acct holder/owner ,for the second RAREST bow on the chaos shard ,the first being Guinness' Blood bow which was the first made on shard this bow was the second blood bow to made on shard,and at the time there were only 2 on shard,to be sold for a a measlie 3g also shows that something was not right when the bow pieces sell on average for 1-2g each,and each bow has 5 pieces.
The people involved in the auction also questioned on how such a rare object would come on the market, these people should not be blamed ,a super rare item coming up forsale creates demand,from what I understand some tried to talk others out of bidding because of the oddity of the sale .
Viceroyx is a good friend and I have had the pleasure of his company fighting an playing constantly for the last 4 months on a daily basis, the man is generious to a fault, and to lose some one like Vice on chaos shard is the real crime over 2 thieves that acted inconcert an chatted to each other during the theft, in any other game there would have some punishment with as much evidence that was collected. If you think that 2 thieves accts are worth more then one honest,then this game community isnt what everyone says it is,if you feel as most do that know that facts ,outrage is the only word I can come up with ifI lose a friend like Vice too keep 24 dollars a month instead of 12 dollars that will be the saddest day I've had playing this game

[Jayne]

Wow, so this is out now. Well let me comment and please if any of this has been pointed out then I am sorry for repeating.

Sadly a member of chaos had a blood bow taken and some money from his account.

It was done by a character that is in his guild. The bloodbow was sold to another guild, which has been returned since the bloodbow is very easy to track. Only maybe two or three right now on the shard (pretty stupid to take an item that is so easily traced).

Also this person or persons got the user name and password and logged into this same persons account and took money(not exactly sure how much). I am not sure if the money was returned.

When items are stolen its very hard to trace unless there unique. You will not find mith bars and such, for example.

I am positive TG has issued warnings to these individuals.

Is it wrong what this person or persons did?, you bet your behind it is!

BUT, here is the part that stinks and some people may not agree.

There are three people in this family that have accounts/characters. Since we or TGwere not there to bear witness to exactly who did what they can't punish just one, they would have to punish all three. Sadly one of them is someone the guild likes very much and is very supportive of. This one person was who was intrusted with the user name and password of the individual whom the stealing was done to.

Even though most are convinced he had NOTHING to do with it he can still be suspect because he had access too.

So in my opinion TG gave a warning to all the individuals. I can pretty much guarantee if this happens again with those individuals. TG will have no choice but to ban all three of them. Even though one might be completely innocent.

*************THE POINT****************
I know some won't like what I am gonna say but
Do NOT ever give out your user name and password to anyone. I don't care if itsyour sister, brother or long lost Aunt, do NOT give it out. If you do then you are responsible, NO ONE ELSE! Not TG, not I, or anyone else is responsible for what happens.

Did everyone understand that? I hope so.

So if you would like TG to do more punishment at this point and time, expect to lose all three individuals. I personally would not want that to happen. And I also dislike the fact that we think we can alienate one or two of them when we really have no idea as to who actually did what. Yes by all means distance yourself from them, but by no means should you avoid them if it ruins your game play.

I hope they learn ther lesson, I really do. One of them is only 13yrs old. Does that tell you anything. This person has even stuck a thorn in my side more then once, but I continue to strive and teach him right from wrong. I send him tells, telling him what he did was not right, I also send him tells telling him he did good. Yes it is bothersome even frustrating, but I want him to learn, I want them to learn. And if all else fails at least I can give him a spanking in game :) before he is gone

Jayne