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Thread: FYI: Armors Historical vs Istaria

  1. #1

    Default FYI: Armors Historical vs Istaria

    Armor...well, here's a topic full of myth, historically inaccurate terms, misconceptions, and a whole gamut of misguided thinking. While none of it has any bearing whatever on the game, or anything else for that matter, I thought I might offer some information for those who enjoy such reading. If anyone learns anything or even says to self "Well, I'll be damned, I never knew that" I shall be well pleased.

    Armor as 3 primary uses, parade, tournament and battle(field armors). The 3 ARE NOT interchangable. I am primarily concerned with field armor for this article.

    First off, terms:
    chainmail...no such thing. It was called MAIL or Mail Shirt.

    ringmail...an armor without any historical counterpart whatever, pure fantasy

    scalemail...wrong again Coat of Plates a lighter version was known as a Brigandine

    platemail...probably the most abused term ever it is actually called Plate Armor

    padded armor...close Actually padded armor, as we know it in game, is a collection of garments that was worn under metal armors. They were known by a variety of names including Acton, Arming Cap, Arming Doublet being but a few.

    A Brief History of Armor...

    The earliest armors were made of whatever the 'armorer' had to hand. This included animal hides worn as garments, or dried and stretched over a crude framework of wood to serve as a shield. Wood was also used for armor, as was bark. Basically whatever the wearer thought he could wear or carry that might offer some protection, he wore it or carried it.

    The earliest known true armor was a wide leather belt worn to protect the abdomen. The Egyptians further developed this belt around 3000 BC into a wraparound garment that extended from shoulders to knees. It was supported by shoulder straps, was supplemented with quilted fabric for additional protection and comfort, and a wooden shield was often carried as well. Around 1400 BC the ancient Syrians and Sumerians began sewing on over-lapping rectangular or scale shaped bronze plates to this armor to provide additional protection. Further delevopments led to lamellae. Lamalla are long, thin, oblong shaped strips of iron or bronze. As they were quite pliable, they could be sewn to a quilted garment in such a manner as to over-lap and these were the earliest form of the Brigandine and the Coat of Paltes.

    Greek and Roman armors furthered the development of armors. Both scale and lamellar armor was used and improved by the Greeks. Greek armor was a wraparound garment of reinforced guilted fabic, wide at the shoulders and sporting a skirt of strips. A hammered bronze brestplate and backplate were also worn, These were often artistically embellished to resemble the musculature of the naked male torso. The Greeks also used Greaves, a metal plate to protect the lower legs. Greek helmets encased the entire head and in their most advanced form the only opening was a Y or T shaped slit for vision and breathing. A shield of hide, wood or metal completed the armor set. The Romans, as they always did, took the best of Greek armoring technigues and improved on them. Romans wore 3 basic styles of armor, scales sewn to an undergarment, mail consisting of thousands of interlocking small iron rings and lamellar armor consisting of over-lapping horizontal iron plates. The large rectangular Roman shield made Greaves unnecessary.

    Early European armor initially borrowed heavily from Roman developments in armor technology, especially the Mail Shirt. By the 12 century Mail Shirts reached the knees, had full length sleeves, were accompanied by Chausses to protect the legs and a Coif, a mail hood. To understand the complex task of creating a Mail Shirt with coif and chauses one need only count the rings. Upwards of 400,000 rings, each conected to 4 other rings, were needed for the entire set. This weighed about 40 pounds.

    While Mail was quite good at protecting the wearer from sword strokes it offered little protection from spears and arrows and none whatever from crushing blows. Padded undergarments were worn to provide some shock resistance from this type of attack and shields were also used for the same reason. Soon armorers realized the need for greater protection and small iron plates began to be attached to shoulders , right arms and chest. This led to widespread use of the Coat of Plates and Brigandines...and the development of Plate Armor. By 1425 or so Plate Armor as we know it today reached its zenith of development barring only some advances in articulation of joints and the weight and hardness of the armor. These last developments reached their zenith by the mid 1500s. Thereafter, firearms rendered armor more and more obsolete with reach passing year.

    In it's most advanced form, Plate Armor was light, very hard, very resiliant, and so well made and articulated a knight could actually mount a horse without the aid of stirrups. A full set of Field Plate Armor consisted of some 20 different pieces of armor weighing about 60 pounds. This was worn over a Mail Shirt with additional Mail reinforcement in areas not adequately protected by plates. The entire set, Mail and Plate Armor, was worn over an arming cap and arming doublet. Total weight reached 90-100 pounds with weapon and shield.

    Field armor was used in battle. Protection and mobility were the primary concerns in the developemnt of armors throughout history. Great mobility always meant a sacrifice in protection and great protection always meant a sacrifice in mobility. The most highly developed medieval Plate Armor offered the wearer the best possible compromise between protection and mobility. In this, the medieval armorers proved themselves more than adequte, indeed they were admirable.

    Tournament armor differed little from field armor in appearance. It had all the same pieces for all the same reasons. However, it was far heavier than field armor, sacrificing mobility for safety. Tournament armor was also much more asthetically appealing.

    Parade armor was just that...Parade Armor. Lots of artistic appeal, lots of gilt, fillagre, engraving, scroll work, fluting and all the rest. And it was utterly useless on the battlefield and at the tilts.

    I fully understand that game armor and historical armor can never even come close to getting on the same page. I just thought folks might enjoy a little history to compare with the game. Some aspects actually agree, others aren't even in the same hemisphere. I leave to the reader to choose...
    Kwinn
    Mortal Danger is an effective antidote for fixed ideas... Erwin Rommel

    Dulce Bellum Inexpertis

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  2. #2

    Default Re: FYI: Armors Historical vs Istaria

    Nice article, but I could swear I've read it before. Reminds me of Poul Anderson's "On Thud and Blunder".
    Klaus Wulfenbach
    Mithril Council, Chaos
    "Death is fleeting. Pride is forever."


    "Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it."-- Abraham Lincoln

  3. #3
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    Default Re: FYI: Armors Historical vs Istaria

    An excellent post, but I'd like to interject a couple observations of mine from various bit of research in the past, feel free to correct me if I am wrong...

    Plate armor was, for all intents and purposes, invulnerable to any sword, spear, axe or arrow attack, however crushing weapons such as hammers and maces didn't even try to pierce the armor, just bruise/break/render useless the limbs and body parts underneath. Plate was also extremely expensive, somewhere in the price of a modern house when compared to incomes. It was also custom built for the wearer, so it was unlikely you could use a hand me down suit of armor. And finally, the reason those knights had such mobility in the armor was the fact that they were trained from a very very early age.

    Most people who wore plate actually wore half plate, consisting of a breast and backplate, helmet, and maybe spaulders and bracers. The rest was leather or cloth. Chain was used mainly by nobility who could afford it, or by raiders who stole if from said nobility. Your average soldier (Medival wise, the Romans were something entirely different) wore either scale, maybe a chain shirt, leather or just made do with a sheild and melee weapon.

    Anyways, my two cents on the subject, please let me know if I'm in error, as I'd like to get rid of misconceptions...
    Death is the ultimate dilemma and integral to the beliefs and behavior of every culture. Life is bore on the corpses of the dead. Without death, there would be no motivation to do anything. The only emotion would be existing. Life would be pestilent and agonizing.

    Ssilmath Torshak
    Paladin of Kass, Master Armorsmith

  4. #4

    Default Re: FYI: Armors Historical vs Istaria

    Ssilmath, you are pretty much right on the money, especially concerning the Italian Plate Armor. They developed a hardening process that made it practically impervious to the longbow except at very close range. Crossbows were another matter although this same armor was the best protection vs crossman short of killing the crossbowman before he could shoot you. Yes ther armor was custom-made, making hand-me-downs less than efficient.

    Knights were a breed apart to be sure. My research has shown me that most knights were not physically imposing specimens, 5'6" to 5' 10" being the rule. However, as you said they were extremely well trained. Indeed, about all they did was train, engage in battle or participate in tournaments. They were in superb shape, easily the equivalent of today's superstar atheletes in every respect. The average soldiers wore whatever they could find, beg, borrow, steal or loot; at least until the advent of standing national armies.

    Half plate or full plate really depended on wealth of the knight. Poor knights made do with mail shirts and iron helmets, wealthy knights got the whole enchilada. And yes, a set of full field plate probably was the equivalent of a modern house. Imagine the cost of having field plate, tournament plate and parade plate? methinks one better be pretty high up on the social ladder to afford all that :)
    Kwinn
    Mortal Danger is an effective antidote for fixed ideas... Erwin Rommel

    Dulce Bellum Inexpertis

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  5. #5
    Altair
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    Default Re: FYI: Armors Historical vs Istaria

    Quote Originally Posted by Kwinn
    Armor...well, here's a topic full of myth, historically inaccurate terms, misconceptions, and a whole gamut of misguided thinking. While none of it has any bearing whatever on the game, or anything else for that matter, I thought I might offer some information for those who enjoy such reading. If anyone learns anything or even says to self "Well, I'll be damned, I never knew that" I shall be well pleased.

    Armor as 3 primary uses, parade, tournament and battle(field armors). The 3 ARE NOT interchangable. I am primarily concerned with field armor for this article.

    First off, terms:
    chainmail...no such thing. It was called MAIL or Mail Shirt.

    ringmail...an armor without any historical counterpart whatever, pure fantasy

    scalemail...wrong again Coat of Plates a lighter version was known as a Brigandine

    platemail...probably the most abused term ever it is actually called Plate Armor

    padded armor...close Actually padded armor, as we know it in game, is a collection of garments that was worn under metal armors. They were known by a variety of names including Acton, Arming Cap, Arming Doublet being but a few.



    LORICA HAMATA OR "RING MAIL / MAILLE" BODY ARMOR

    "lorica hamata" or "mail" or to use the french pronunciation, "maille" -It is composed of punched "washer-like" rings and a similar number of "butted" wire rings. The Romans are known to have used punched rings to speed the making of mail; as the punched rings did not have to be drawn, coiled, cut apart and riveted, as was required when using wire rings. The assembly of mail is not particularly difficult; but is very tedious and time consuming.

    A Brief History -


    "Mail", or to use the French pronunciation, "Maille"or "Ring Mail" which is often improperly termed "Chain Mail" or "Hauberk" Armor, is probably the most successful type of body armor ever developed. It is often associated more with the medieval period; but, it was in common use with the Roman Legions long before that time. The term "Mail / Maille" derives from the latin word "Macula" meaning "Mesh of the Net". Mail Armor was invented long before the Roman Period. The place of origin and time of development for mail is not definitely known. The Syrians are thought to have been using it as early as circa 600 BC and it was in use for over a 1600 years,well into the late medieval period. It was most likely introduced to the Roman Army during campaigns against the Celtic Gauls during the Celtic Wars, which ensued after Rome was sacked by the Celtic Gauls, in 390 BC. The Romans are thought to have believed that the Gauls had in fact developed "Mail" for use as body armor. Mail is usually assembled by interlocking one iron or bronze ring with four others, termed a "Four in One" pattern or weave. However,in the middle ages, "Six in One" and even "Eight in One" engagements were utilized for a more protective defense.Such denser patterns were also much heavier and stiffer, with the "Eight in One" being about half-again as heavy as the more traditional "Four in One" pattern. There is no documentation that the Romans ever used the Six in One or Eight in One patterns. The rings were riveted together, requiring skillful labor and patience; thus making its manufacture expensive both in time and material; but it requires a minimum of maintenance being largely self cleaning due to the rubbing action of the rings. "Butted" ring mail, where the ends of the links were not riveted; but simply aligned and butted together came into use in 1700's for parade and display purposes. Such "butted" mail was not suitable or durable for combat use.

    Think you got your facts a little backwards there, "ring mail" does have a historical relivence while "Chain Mail" is just a misconception of "Ring"


    Altair Argannon
    EoI

  6. #6

    Default Re: FYI: Armors Historical vs Istaria

    Kwinn. I think you have a hidden agenda andyourtrying to get all the armor removed except plate armor!!!!

    JK, good article!

    Jayne

  7. #7

    Default Re: FYI: Armors Historical vs Istaria

    Altair,

    Two different names for the same armor hence my conclusion that ringmail is fanstasy staple and not an actual armor. Ringmail, chainmail, 6 of one, half dozen of the other both are mail.

    Kwinn
    Mortal Danger is an effective antidote for fixed ideas... Erwin Rommel

    Dulce Bellum Inexpertis

    Dog: The other white meat

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  8. #8

    Default Re: FYI: Armors Historical vs Istaria

    For the doubting Thomas's I offer the following list of reference works. 20 years, more money than I should have spent and one helluva lot of BC Powders to compile. Call it a selected bibliography if you want to:

    Grancsay Sculpture in Arms and Armor 1940
    Ashdown Bristish and Foriegn Arms and Armor 1909
    Oakeshott European Arms and Armor 1980
    Snodgrass Greek Arms and Armor 1967
    Blair European Armor 1066 to 1700 1958
    Hencken The Earlier European Helmets 1971
    Robinson The Armor of Imperial Rome 1975
    Norman Arms and Armor 1964
    Nickel Arms and Armor through the Ages 1969


    and last is my prize its not original sadly, but its a copy of a copy and hard as hell to read. Hell, it doesnt even have a cover. Just copies :( Still, its interesting the differences a century and a half make in perceptions and conclusions.

    Meyrick A Critical Inquirey into Ancient Armor
    Kwinn
    Mortal Danger is an effective antidote for fixed ideas... Erwin Rommel

    Dulce Bellum Inexpertis

    Dog: The other white meat

    Order Server

    Heavily multiclassed Human Hunter, 'overpowered' to the nth degree of beejeezusness and damned proud of it. Nerf me, go ahead make my day

  9. #9

    Default Re: FYI: Armors Historical vs Istaria

    oops the Meyrick work was published in 1824
    Kwinn
    Mortal Danger is an effective antidote for fixed ideas... Erwin Rommel

    Dulce Bellum Inexpertis

    Dog: The other white meat

    Order Server

    Heavily multiclassed Human Hunter, 'overpowered' to the nth degree of beejeezusness and damned proud of it. Nerf me, go ahead make my day

  10. #10

    Default Re: FYI: Armors Historical vs Istaria

    Actually Kwinn the dog meat I have eaten wouldn't classify as white meat.

    Jayne

  11. #11
    Britt Tigahare
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    Default Re: FYI: Armors Historical vs Istaria



    And take note that this doesn't just pertain to Istaria, but pertains to several subjects of fantasy. Dungeons & Dragons being very well known and does list chain mail, scale mail and plate mail for armor choices. And I do believe Tolkien made the reference as well in LOTR, although I do not remember the book much because it's been a long time since I read it. But I think the words "elven chain mail" ring a bell. Or maybe it's D&D again.

    It's important to realize that it is just a fantasy, there doesn't have to be anything factual about it. But yes, I am sure there are people who are interested in the real historical aspects of armor.

    And by the way, you can do the same thing with metal as well [:D]

  12. #12
    Vignar
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    Default Re: FYI: Armors Historical vs Istaria

    Quote Originally Posted by Ssilmath
    Plate armor was, for all intents and purposes, invulnerable to any sword, spear, axe or arrow attack, ...
    You sure about that spear? It would seem that, along with close range arrows, a thin, solid piece of metal would yield to a direct pierce. Especially if the wood that thestem(again, arrows included)consisted of was strong enough not to snap under the pressure. A hit to the chest in a breastplate with no give should split easily. Think how easy it is to pierce sheet metal (cars), although modern sheet metal is likely thinner than quality plate.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: FYI: Armors Historical vs Istaria

    I am positive about the spear, yes. Plate armor was not sheet metal, it was specially designed, tempered metal that makes modern automobile look like tin foil. Another thing to consider is that it was not a flat plate, but shaped in such a way that an attack would be deflected and lose a lot of its force. Truly, the closest equivilant we have today is tank armor, shaped and designed specifically to reduce the amount of damage done to it.

    And for the record, most weapons carried by a soldier was not steel, but iron. Steel was far too expensive until late in the middle ages. An iron spearhead thrust with enough force that had it been steel would have pierced the armor, would simply shatter or bend.

    Another thing that I have seen done was a person took a steel longsword, with a much finer and stronger blade and tip than any mediavel spear and thrust it into a breastplate that was held still and motionless. This person was above average in build and strength, and got the sword less than 2 inches into the armor. Such perfect opportunities don't exist in battle.
    Death is the ultimate dilemma and integral to the beliefs and behavior of every culture. Life is bore on the corpses of the dead. Without death, there would be no motivation to do anything. The only emotion would be existing. Life would be pestilent and agonizing.

    Ssilmath Torshak
    Paladin of Kass, Master Armorsmith

  14. #14

    Default Re: FYI: Armors Historical vs Istaria

    Plate vs. a hurled or thrust spear, yes, the spear will most often glance off or fail to penetrate. A braced spear or pike is a different matter - just ask the Swiss. [;)]
    Klaus Wulfenbach
    Mithril Council, Chaos
    "Death is fleeting. Pride is forever."


    "Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it."-- Abraham Lincoln

  15. #15
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    Default Re: FYI: Armors Historical vs Istaria

    You are correct sir, and those tactics were in fact one of the downfalls of the armored knight (The rifle being the other downfall)...

    However, the reason a braced pike could peirce the armor came from

    1. Massed pikeheads...one is eventually gonna find a weak spot
    2. The force of a charging warhorse is what drives the spear through, not the force of a mans arm

    When I say spear, I mean a throwing javelin or stabbing spear used by normal combatants. A pike weilded in a mass formation by highly trained soldiers, and with a tip made of steel, is a slightly different matter.
    Death is the ultimate dilemma and integral to the beliefs and behavior of every culture. Life is bore on the corpses of the dead. Without death, there would be no motivation to do anything. The only emotion would be existing. Life would be pestilent and agonizing.

    Ssilmath Torshak
    Paladin of Kass, Master Armorsmith

  16. #16

    Default Re: FYI: Armors Historical vs Istaria

    Quote Originally Posted by gopher65
    You are correct about the shape of the armor. It was rounded in such a way asto bounce off impacts that would otherwise have pierce the armor. This was especially important when dealing with long range arrows, lines ofpikes, and axes.
    This is why it annoys me no end to see women's armor made with defined breasts. That's a perfect valley to guide pointy things right into your heart, you know. Look at period images of Joac d'Arc ... the chest plate swells a little more, but is still shaped to guide thrusts to either side rather than funnelling them into the center.

    -Levity

  17. #17

    Default Re: FYI: Armors Historical vs Istaria

    LOL, yeah but then what will the guys have to look at?

    Jayne

  18. #18

    Default Re: FYI: Armors Historical vs Istaria

    Your tail?
    Klaus Wulfenbach
    Mithril Council, Chaos
    "Death is fleeting. Pride is forever."


    "Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it."-- Abraham Lincoln

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