Community Meeting Feedback

[Illi]

While I think Yuusuke did a fine job of moderating last night's community meeting, I am less than thrilled with it's outcome. I've been skeptical about this entire process and in my opinion it's become somewhat of a joke. I understand the underlying purpose for the meetings, but it's gotten blown out of proportion to the point where we are "electing", and intimidation has wormed it's way into the equation. Last night there was a call for a vote on someone that a strong number of people do not want in the position they were elected to. Instead of counting the total number of votes out of 40+, half of the votes were discounted. It was speculated that some of the "abstain" votes were holding back their real votes based on fear of retaliation, blacklisting and the like. I already know of one account of such. Therefore, as of today, last night was my last community meeting. I will not attend another. Voting should be and should have ALWAYS been anonymous, by either tell, or PM on the forums. It takes longer but you'd get more "true" votes out of the assembly if it were. Until such an action is taken, I hold no confidence in the charter, or how it's carried out.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

I'm sorry you feel this way and I'm going now to read the logs..however.

There is a HUGE issue with anonymous voting over the internet in a sitauation such as this.

In tells or in PMs there is no valid record anyone can present in the end to say for sure who voted what.

So really, anyone can go "no I got 10 votes for XYZ they were in private tells" and you know what - there's no way to verify wether they really did get that many votes or not.

Its a shame that people take a game so seriously that blacklisting and "fear" against saying a Yes or No vote is present. I'd hope the community being called on for "blacklisting" would have better reasons than "he voted no against me at a community meeting" against anyoen who called for someoen to be "outed" because of it.

But I'm just giving the other side of the coin here - you can't have reliable voting if its in private tells or private PMs. Then you run into the issue of possibly people basically outright lying about the results, and no way anyone can be held accountable.

[imported_asteral]

"Social Suicide"

Right now
Well it's finally time to face my fears
Gonna get the hell out of here
And create a fresher atmosphere
But the consequence is clear

There's a furnace set on high
And a yearning undefined
But it's time to turn the tide
It's social suicide

Like you
Perserverence is a useless tool
Just a patron on a ship of fools
Feigning interest in the cast and crew
Why you've broken every single rule

There's a furnace set on high
And a yearning undefined
But it's time to turn the tide
It's social suicide

Shadows entertain the unwashed masses
Scholars explain their numb reactions
I don't even know if I can ever find truth
but I'm sure it won't come from following you

There's a furnace set on high
And a yearning undefined
But it's time to turn the tide
It's social suicide





Hmm......not written by me by the way. Gotta love Bad Religion.

[Illi]

I'm sorry you feel this way and I'm going now to read the logs..however.

There is a HUGE issue with anonymous voting over the internet in a sitauation such as this.

In tells or in PMs there is no valid record anyone can present in the end to say for sure who voted what.

So really, anyone can go "no I got 10 votes for XYZ they were in private tells" and you know what - there's no way to verify wether they really did get that many votes or not.

Its a shame that people take a game so seriously that blacklisting and "fear" against saying a Yes or No vote is present. I'd hope the community being called on for "blacklisting" would have better reasons than "he voted no against me at a community meeting" against anyoen who called for someoen to be "outed" because of it.

But I'm just giving the other side of the coin here - you can't have reliable voting if its in private tells or private PMs. Then you run into the issue of possibly people basically outright lying about the results, and no way anyone can be held accountable.

Well, I DO understand the iffy part of anonymous voting, but I think there's also no real reason to even need leaders for New Player Assistance since there's an entire channel devoted to it. No leader needed for World Projects since there's a whole channel devoted to it and there have been several instrumental members of it. And why do we need a charter? Waht's the purpose behind that? There isn't any, IMO. These are just my opinions.

But the sad fact is, one account I know of did not vote AT ALL on one nominee. Not an abstain even, for fear of retribution by that nominee. Sorry but this is something we don't need and I won't be a part of. I voted him down, and blatantly too. I don't want him there and I don't care who knows it. But others aren't so bold. Don't you find it odd that the abstains seemed to crescendo during one of the votes??? I do. And look at all the silence by some people.....not even an abstain.....

[imported_Frith-Rae]

I can't speak to abstains and real world consequences, though I know its a reality for some people - it does suck.

I can speak for why we have "leaders" they are merely there for hte purpose of SOMEONE keeping track and organizing what's going on.

Without such, things can descend into chaos. I honestly feel that if I wasn't doing my job as Secretary the forums would be left out 100% int his process - in any decision making or discussions - logs woudln't be posted, opinions of those on the forum who coudlnt make a single meeting woudl never be heard. So there's a purpose for one "leadership" job.

World Projects - I DO think C'gan's job has purpose. He comes and regularly updates that thread for one. He keeps track record of new projects that opens up, makes sure the community hears about it. I DO feel that if you don't have one person doing that, it doesn't happen. The organizational part I mean, doesn't happen.

Then moving to new player team - I see the "co leaders" job is to constantly be checking newbie connies to keep track of what's there and what isn't. If they see something lacking, to make sure its taken care of. When left to individuals, some may keep track of this, others may not - but you never really know and the system then fails. You end up with 500 scales and no gloves or..something to that effect.

This to me is why we need some people to help organize, to keep track, so others don't have to (wether they'd bother to or not).

Just how I see it anyway.

[Illi]

Secretary is really exempt from this issue for me. We need that if we're going to organize coomunity meetings, that's a given.

C'gan didn't need a title in the beginning, and still has maintained his job such as it is. I don't really see the need for this "election" at all. He took it without the election, so it's mute.

New Player Assistance.....this is a whole other ball of wax. Co-leaders? We don't currently have any leaders to "co-leader". There are plenty of older players in NP channel to work this out and I know a few players who check connies without any direction at all. And I just do not see the need for a leader of any type for that issue.

Just opinions, but I think that we've taken this to a level it never needed to be at. Over the last 24 hours I've thought about my position on the subject, and would just rather stay out of that type of thing. I wish everyone luck, but I just won't be around for anymore elections. I also hope I don't see someone's "elected" post go to his head.....I think we all know who I'm refering to, and I think I'll see just that.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

well the issue of voting and such things is under discussion now, so I would encourage you to at least post your views on the system you'd like to see in the thread I made over in the Main Order Forums - even if you don't wish to partake - as far as I see things, this is a constant tweaking process.

C'gan didn't need a title in the beginning, but he wanted to create something that would continue in his stead should he ever drop out/leave the game/disappear/whatever. There isn't always someoen willing to "step up" and do the "busywork" of being a bit more organized when someone else stops doing it.

Same with New Player assistance - ye some players will check connies, some won't. Its happening because the first person stepped up and said "hey let's get organized about this so we all are on the same page" and the "position" was created to keep that going even after they've stepped down (which obviously they have :)).

Keeping in mind that noone has to do what any of these people say, and the term "leader" is really used very loosely. Heck they could all be described as Secretaries I guess - since its a matter of "keeping the records" so to speak :).

[C`gan]

Hang on a second. Let's not proscribe the WorldProjects Team to me or my desire or my anything. Let me give you a bit of a history lesson, if I may.

Dawn shard pre-merge may or may not have had a community project team. I was earning my way up the ranks to get the construction classes for most of pre-merge. Only with the satyr mines and Feladan did we even show a concerted, group effort with teams and a separate channel to start getting the builds done. Much of what the few communities then had were done by builders who lived within the communities. In fact, the first involvement either Tagath or I had was Tagath took one load of cedar braces from the carpenter in Kion and ran them from Chiconis to Feladan (he didn't know about Parsinia and Harton Valley at the time). When merger happened, the building of the Novian machinery was again out of my league and Tagath wanted in on the action, so he fought at the battle of Kion.

Once merger happeend, Obsidian Order took to exploring the new islands early. We kept some projects quiet to the community (ones we could finish on our own), and others we passed on to friends of our guild.One of them introduced us to Tala and Levity. They were putting together teams and taking notes on things that needed built, using the WorldProjects channel. We helped with both the building and the scouting. When Tala started becoming scarce, Chaim and Chiptus stepped up. By then, I was strongly involved in the WP team of the time, as were many other new friends from other guilds and shards.

It was when Chaim and Chiptus were beginning to be more scarce that the first call out by Plink was made pertaining to an all-guild shard meeting, if you will. Representatives from those guilds who were community minded were asked to attend a gathering at Dalimond's theater. I happened to be one of those from Obsidian Order to go. The meeting notes are found here: http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=76087. Of importance, the following section:

[06/16/05 18:42:51] [Community: Plink] The community could really use a team of players that goes around assessing World Projects and giving them a priority, in my opinion.
[06/16/05 18:43:10] [Community: Draxxis] I agree.
[06/16/05 18:43:25] [Community: Dalviane] For new players like me can someone define"world project" and what they do?
[06/16/05 18:43:31] [Community: Swiftflight] Indeed
[06/16/05 18:43:41] [Community: Fennin] There is, funily enough the chat tab is named "WorldProjects"
[06/16/05 18:43:42] [Community: Goibhnie] C`gan I believe has something to say on the subject.
[06/16/05 18:43:59] [Community: Plink] And it's often empty.
[06/16/05 18:44:03] [Community: C`gan] World projects are large-scale buildings that require more construction than is feasibly possible for one person or guild.
[06/16/05 18:44:14] [Community: C`gan] They are not associated with any one person, guild, or plot.
[06/16/05 18:44:17] [Community: Malendryn] Levity used to have a strong hand in world projects. Dont know about these days tho.
[06/16/05 18:44:19] [Community: Warsong] we have had this for a while all those interested in helping with world projects can join the world projects channel
[06/16/05 18:44:38] [Community: Frisco] And sometimes they open up new areas, free races, or have an impact on gameplay
[06/16/05 18:44:50] [Community: C`gan] Examples include: Elmnic logging camp (finished), Selen Bridge (unfinished), new mines and lighthouses added with this patch.
[06/16/05 18:44:51] [Community: Draxxis] It's the first I've heard of the channel. Perhaps some advertisment would get more support.
[06/16/05 18:45:16] [Community: Plink] I also think that some direction would greatly help the channel.
[06/16/05 18:45:36] [Community: Fennin] Check the community boards, there are a few posts regarding world projects.
[06/16/05 18:45:38] [Community: C`gan] Many of our regular WorldProjects channel team are here now.
[06/16/05 18:45:43] [Community: Draxxis] Do you propose to offer direction, Plink?
[06/16/05 18:45:57] [Community: Swiftflight] perhaps we vote someone to be incharge of the world projects team
[06/16/05 18:46:06] [Community: Plink] No I propose to make an official team that everyone agrees offers that direction.
[06/16/05 18:46:07] [Community: Dalviane] I think Plink has enough from the buffet on his platter
[06/16/05 18:46:14] [Community: Bahomute] i would be able to help some as an alt (Cluod)
[06/16/05 18:46:18] [Community: C`gan] We keep in contact out of game in the forums under the Construction and Housing forum in Istarian Life and also the Community subforum in the Order Shard forum.
[06/16/05 18:46:21] [Community: Delvie] I think more of a team prioritizing would work better
[06/16/05 18:47:04] [Community: Plink] Volunteers for the team?
[06/16/05 18:47:13] [Community: Kortex] i
[06/16/05 18:47:16] [Community: Delvie] I
[06/16/05 18:47:17] [Community: Plink] Official team that is.
[06/16/05 18:47:18] [Community: Vignar] The Selen Bridge is unfinished? I am hovering over it now and it appears to be finished.
[06/16/05 18:47:18] [Community: Fennin] I
[06/16/05 18:47:24] [Community: Draxxis] (My alt will volunteer)
[06/16/05 18:47:27] [Community: C`gan] We are not limited to needing only persons with construction classes.
[06/16/05 18:47:30] [Community: Dalviane] I'll volunteer....
[06/16/05 18:47:31] [Community: Goibhnie] all 3 parts Vignar?
[06/16/05 18:47:32] [Community: Fennin] (Also Gusi - alt)
[06/16/05 18:47:35] [Community: C`gan] I and Tagath are both in.
[06/16/05 18:47:40] [Community: Goibhnie] I
[06/16/05 18:47:46] [Community: Kortex] I
[06/16/05 18:47:57] [Community: Vignar] You could run from one side of the river to the other, yes.
[06/16/05 18:47:58] [Community: Xerses] I
[06/16/05 18:48:06] [Community: Anasfalis] I will pole my guild for an elder to join
[06/16/05 18:48:20] [Community: Goibhnie] There is another bridge south of Selen that has 3 spans that leads to a werewolf island
[06/16/05 18:48:20] [Community: Plink] Excellent response. More than I hoped. [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]
[06/16/05 18:48:25] [Community: Fennin] That's right C`gan. We often have Dragons flying resources, if we can manage to get a decent team together.
[06/16/05 18:48:42] [Community: Vignar] Oooh
[06/16/05 18:48:44] [Community: Plink] I suggest C`gan to lead this team.
[06/16/05 18:48:47] [Community: Bahomute] occasionaly
[06/16/05 18:48:48] [Community: Xerses] and make the resources too
[06/16/05 18:48:57] [Community: Swiftflight] ill be happy to fly resources in once i can fly
[06/16/05 18:49:03] [Community: C`gan] Not only flying, but if we can get several persons making raw materials for a construction crafter to process into units to be placed, the speed really kicks in.
[06/16/05 18:49:04] [Community: Xivly] I vote C'gan
[06/16/05 18:49:16] [Community: C`gan] *blinks*
[06/16/05 18:49:21] [Community: Delvie] aye
[06/16/05 18:49:28] [Community: Plink] Vote for C`gan as the World Project Leader?
[06/16/05 18:49:30] [Community: Dalviane] I can't fly but I can get materials and craft basic bricks
[06/16/05 18:49:32] [Community: Plink] aye
[06/16/05 18:49:36] [Community: Dalviane] I vote aye
[06/16/05 18:49:36] [Community: Xerses] aye
[06/16/05 18:49:37] [Community: Swiftflight] look like you have been nominated cgan, do you accept?
[06/16/05 18:49:38] [Community: Bazzikathiss] aye
[06/16/05 18:49:38] [Community: Eliora] aye
[06/16/05 18:49:40] [Community: Delight] aye
[06/16/05 18:49:41] [Community: Vesh] aye
[06/16/05 18:49:42] [Community: Cerryn] Does he want the position?
[06/16/05 18:49:42] [Community: Bahomute] aye
[06/16/05 18:49:42] [Community: Keubzeikevr] aye
[06/16/05 18:49:43] [Community: Cera] aye
[06/16/05 18:49:47] [Community: Jesper] aye
[06/16/05 18:49:52] [Community: Kepesk] Aye
[06/16/05 18:49:57] [Community: Fennin] I agree with Cerryn. Ask him first before we nominate.
[06/16/05 18:49:58] [Community: Plink] He's wanted. [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]
[06/16/05 18:50:00] [Community: Delight] *chuckles* to late he got volunteered
[06/16/05 18:50:13] [Community: C`gan] I think I have it whether or not I want it.
[06/16/05 18:50:27] [Community: Goibhnie] *watches the rope pull on C`gan*
[06/16/05 18:50:28] [Community: C`gan] I will accept.
[06/16/05 18:50:31] [Community: Plink] Do you want it? I assumed that would be right up your alley. [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]
[06/16/05 18:50:31] [Community: Eliora] lol
[06/16/05 18:50:38] [Community: Swiftflight] *Pats.. errr tries not to claw C'gan on the back*
[06/16/05 18:50:46] [Community: Plink] Excellent. Congratulations. [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]
[06/16/05 18:50:53] [Community: C`gan] That's the thing. It IS right up my alley since I work all five construction classes.
[06/16/05 18:51:23] [Community: C`gan] I am not up to tier 3 on most of them yet.
[06/16/05 18:51:34] [Community: Plink] It will come. [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]
[06/16/05 18:51:36] [Community: Warsong] Community I must leave Olvander is the represenative of the Iron Circle
[06/16/05 18:51:40] [Dragon: Pulsaar] hello can anyone tell me where they have moved the cedar treants to plez
[06/16/05 18:51:52] [Community: Kepesk] I don't think skill is necessarily required so much as leadership, C`gan. [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-5.gif[/img]
[06/16/05 18:51:59] [Community: Vignar] I see what you are talking about now, middle section is 51.2%.
[06/16/05 18:52:04] [Community: Ceinlys] most world projet i've seen goes up to T2
[06/16/05 18:52:07] [Community: Delvie] Skill is also very nice[img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]

If you will please note, I was voted in BEFORE I was asked to handle the position. I have been modifying and adjusting the position of leadership to better work with the community and builders of our shard so that information isn't hidden or garnered as "guild only" when pertaining to projects. Origianlly, there were several lists of projects for our shard to build. I took those lists and consolidated them into the project list that is kept permanently sticked in the forum. Also, for those interested, I put up an in-depth job description of what the team leadership position does. It can be found here: http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=106942.

As you can see, I am only the latest link to be added to the long chain of what now is the WorldProjects Team.

[Illi]

I completely understand HOW you got the "position", I just disagree with where this takes place, and how blown out of proportion it's becoming. If you look in the General Order forums, you will find a post or two from people that are currently ticked off at this system that some want to have going. I have no arguments with you being WP leader, I think you do a fine job at it. I just disagree with there being a NEED to do this at community meetings. Only a handful of the people who join community channel every two weeks are even IN World Projects channel. So, this really has little to do with community meetings. The elections, as they are, should take place in their respective channels, NOT in the community channel. There is nothing but drama and theatrics on having a "charter" for all this. It's really too much. This is a "game", not the Senate race, not a business, not anything remotely in need of any charters, elections.....etc. New Player Assistance shouldn't even have a leader, that's ridiculous. Sure, I know I don't need to folow the directions of these individuals, but give us a break, New Player Team leader?? For what? There are plenty of people in these channels to MORE than take care of anything a new player would need, a building project would need, period. There are already plenty of people stocking conisngers on a regular basis, I think the whole deal is mute now. And it's ticked off more people than it should have. So far we've got people upset over the number of votes per accnt owned, and they happen to be RIGHT by the way, people upset over abstains not counting for squat, people not even wanting the darned charter in the first place, people unhappy with the people up for election, it's sad. If it's not broken, don't fix it. There is absolutely no need for any of this garbage.

I almost deleted this whole post, because it's so ridiculous for me to even argue about this stuff. I'll leave it here though, maybe someone will take an interest in preserving some of the community by taking into account the problems all of this has caused, and perhaps drop the whole thing.

[Imayo]

When we only have one person volunteering for an admin position, why are we even voting in the first place????? There's no one else who wants the position. And I do agree that each of the channels' members (New Player and World Projects) should put who THEY want in the position. People who don't help out in either channel really shouldn't have any say in it. If you don't like how a team is being run.....get your butt in there and participate!

[shadow_wyrm]

I say we vote shadow wyrm the coolest draggy in the lands. but thats just me lol

[Yuusuke Akiyama IV]

Forgive my delay in posting here. Time for matters Istarian has not been of my own chosing much recently. I will do my best to offer some points on where we are, and how we got there, regarding the Assembly and the Charter that it currently operates under.

First and foremost: I would wager that I could easily come up with a score or two of folks, including myself, who would vastly prefer to have no Assembly nor pretention of governance by any Gifted. Sadly, our experience to date is that given the general desire to have "community meetings" and "community efforts", what results is a situation where a faction, clique, or autocrat (intentional or accidental) will begin to declare that they "speak for the community". This happened more than once before the worlds merged, and arguements over such doomed one of the first attempts at community meetings after the merge. This latest round I was party to the challenge when a group attempting to restart meetings took some liberties with claims of legitimacy (and in all fairness, were accused of things they did not claim <sigh>) This challenge was first formally raised here:

http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=80283

Some time then passed, with several side discusssions, before we reached this point in matters:

http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=90736

And a long long process went on as to if and how an Assembly should be chartered.

Some superb comments were also posted outside the main thread on this, for example:

http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=94665

Some attempts to draw out discussion also went nowhere, but are pertinent as they show there was an ongoing attempt by others to bring discussion to this matter:

http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=94728

And only after all that did it come to actually attempting to adopt a Charter, knowing full well not all parties were pleased. What compromises could be made were made for this attempt, and then it went to a public vote, here and in the meeting:

http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=104262

http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=106787

***

That is how we got to where we are now, and I look forward to seeing where and how we progress. The key, if I would offer such an opinion again, is not that any one Charter be adopted. The key is that some Charter be adopted, followed, and expanded upon by practice in the meetings so as to divorce the jobs of moderation, team leadership, and administration (secretary) from any one individual or clique, and make the Assembly a body of legitimacy gained from the "community" as a whole. However that is to be done, it is the one point I would strongly argue be sustained.

***

Now then, to address particulars of the last meeting.

There seems to be a misapprehension that there was some "race to 40" during voting. No such thing occured. The quorum was counted up to the minimum to encourage more votes as we have missed quorum before on these issues. The vote was then held open for a time thereafter to allow any who wished to vote. I grant that hoding the vote open longer might have gained a voice or two more, but I am confident that at leaast due dilligence was done to hold open the votes as long as reasonable without slowing the meeting's progress. I would certainly consider a fixed time of votes in future meetings, perhaps 5 minutes(?) would do, just to avoid this question in the future.

I also note that there was a clear call made twice before the first matter voted on (C`gan as WP officer #1) to hear comment, or to hear calls for a vote. To my surprise at the time, no comment was raised. What I did not do carefully enough was to enforce the "raise a paw to be recognized to speak" during that time, which allowed calls from the benches to be used to close the discussion. That can and should be done differently next time.

In amusing hindsight, more than one of those that called for cutting off discussion and going for a vote would later speak at some length upon challenging the outcome of the vote. Interesting, no?

Which brings us to the calls in New Business that led to the Charter being called into question and the Recalls of all 3 officers that were confirmed in the votes during Old Business. Let us not be confused or misled by this process. Those later calls were the political manuevering of those that sided against some (one?) of those elected. The call for Recall is a perfectly legitimate ploy under the Charter, and one I might have used myself had I been on the losing end of a vote as they were, but see it for what it is, a ploy, and understand that it is that and no more when the time comes to discuss the Recalls later.

Speaking of ploys, I do find it odd that given the harden opinion of a faction opposed to Kwinn as (New Player Team officer #1), they did not realize that they likely had a better chance of defeating his nomination had they strongly argued their case before the vote, and then, knowing the rough count of voices heard in the C`gan vote, quickly coordinated a boycott of this one item. Refusing to vote, the minority of roughly a dozen opposed voices might well have denied quorum to the vote. This sort of "veto by a minority" is an intentional feature of the existing Charter, and one which had been used once before (to close Old Business in a meeting in early December by denying quorum on contentious matters to allow an overlong meeting to be brought to an end). Something to remember for future meetings, this.

Lastly, regarding voting systems: My thanks again to Archebold<sp> for his once again very well spoken contribution on matters of Charter. The system of voting he proposes is equally valid to any we have now, and I would support it were a new Charter to include it. I would asksome questions on what was proposed, however: Under that system, would it be incumbent on the moderator to take a roll-call to extablish quorum first, then when votes are held, call the roll in order? If so, would there be any exception made for momentary absences or early departures, and if so, how would that be done? More, has the likely effect of longer meetings been considered? On that last, if so fine, as expediency really need not trump proper representation. <nods firmly>

***

Very well then. Thank you all for listening so long, and I hope to see many many folks at the meeting this week. May we all make things better.

<bows and departs>

[magius]

why not just have a community channel to do things in. those who want to join in will and those who dont want to help out wont join the channel. there. everyone will be happy and everyone can quit talking trash here and enjoy thier game.

havent logged on in months and havent missed it a bit, visit wow to find me :)

[Tokoz]

Just visiting. Don't want to create a ruckus or anything...

It seems to me though, that if a person does the job on their own, they are "assuming power" and if they are elected, it is often through intimidation and not out of any sincere desire to help the community.

Darned if I did and darned it didn't. :p

Good luck. I wish the community well. I always have.