Is selfishness helping the game?

[Aamer Khan]

Let me explain what I mean.

Most posts on these boards, that ask for changes to what is currently in game, are for the most part motivated by self interest. Now please don't even bother to take exception to that statement, since it is very easy to find the relationship to self, in any of such posts. And don't think I'm excluding myself either. I have done my fair share of asking for changes that would improve game play for ME. Often these requests will be challenged by those who would be effected adversly by such changes. And finally, they will devolve into flame wars or backbiting.

At best, the Dev's should read these posts and taking them with a grain of salt, shift through them and get a feel for the needs of the player base, and see how they can accomodate the playerbase without sidestepping their plans.

Such would be true in a perfect world... something we don't enjoy.

What does happen is, if a few players ( even as little as 2 or 3 ) make a big enough stink about something, eventually something will get changed or nerfed, and a few will leave over it. Such is life in an MMORPG. And this would really not be a problem, if enough new players were joining everyday to replace any that leave. Therein lies the reason for my question.

Are we, ( yes, I totally include myself ) really helping the game by selfishly asking for any change at all?

Because, what is an unbalanced game mechanic to one, is a major part of the fun to others. What I personally find entertaining, can quite boring to others. Just read the "remember when" thread to see all the things this game has lost that are fondly remembered, to see how our requests for change has driven off a goodly number of those we used to play with.

[Peaches]

Every person that plays the game, have suggestions that would better the game, not just for them, but for many others. They bounce the ideas back and forth, via the market channel, or here. If the game didn't evolve *change* , it would become stagnant and you would lose more players as well. It is up to the dev team how they want to handle changes etc., in the scope of things.


The door to our world is a revolving door, as much as I hate to see my friends leave, more new players come in, and new friends. Its the nature of the beast.

[nimklikesjugs]

I miss dwarf chicks.

Nimk

[Khoal]

I agree with Kumu.

[PJ]

What our personal interests happen to be, are irrelevant.

We merely presented our ideas for changes/additions/removals/fixes to the devs, sometimes with some sort of supporting arguments/rational (or irrational as the case may be [;)]).

The dev's then glean from this and other forms of input what they will, and do what they feel is in the best interest of the game as a whole. That is the only interest that matters.

Its just a matter of course that sometimes, what the devs feel is in the best interest of the game, conflicts with the interests of some of their players. And just as often those interests coincide.

[Justa Mirage]

Ok I wanna be selfish!

I want my own arrival pad in Sanctuary bay :) or better yet that and a TP ring.

This way the players:

A: will harvest the maple and have an easier way to get their product to buildings
B: players using Tarbash disks will get pinched for fees using it
C: Saves on the wear and tear of my little kitty paws running to my plot :)

p.s. when were we going to get plot-secondary recall ability :)

[imported_Frith-Rae]

If you're saying we shouldn't be asking for changes - that implies that something is "perfect" the way it is from the get go.

So far I've yet to play an MMORPG, and very few Single player games, that were "perfectd" from the get go.

And the sheer nature of an MMORPG to me means its a constantly changing and evolving process. It would continue to be so, wether forums were around or not.

So, while I think entirely selfish requests by people who refuse to see both sides of the coincould be a bad thing to ask for - asking for changes in an of themselves is NOT bad.

That is GOOD for the game. It keeps it ALIVE and GROWING for the future.

Otherwise like Peaches said, it stagnating. You're asking or implying for something to be perfect out of the box - which just isn't possible :).

[LaughingOtter]

Selfishness, enlightened self-interest, being an advocate, being an apologist, being a crusader, championing a cause....

Which is which, and how do you decide?

I don't know about anyone else, but when I ask for a change, I'm championing a cause. When you ask for one, you're being selfish. [;)]

So, yeah, it's a good thing.

[Aamer Khan]

Klaus, championing a cause is fine and dandy.

Stagnation is bad and not wanted either.

I was being subtle, but I won't bother with that next time.

I sure don't believe we live in any perfect world nor that HZ is in anyway perfect.

I asked a question and so far, gotten exactly the reponses I expected.

A good number of my ingame friends complain constantly about the group changes, craft changes, exp changes, performance issues, the list goes on and on...

Of course games like this are revolving doors, with old players leaving and new players coming in. However, I can see that many of the changes that have driven off players have come after a vocal few have gotten the developers ear. Ok, so the dev's agree with these players. But this has not always improved things. Often the Dev's do things without player input that is complained about. So yes, it's in the devs control.

If you think your posted comments have no influence with the devs, then why post any suggestions? If your suggestions get implemented, even if it makes the game more enjoyable for you, if 10 people quit over it, you willing to accept responsibility for that? It's only a game after all, and it's very easy to just blame the dev's for being rubes, than it is to realize that we may have been involved in driving anyone off.

Me personally? I hate the group exp changes that took place, since it basically killed guild hunts for us. I never called for it. Didn't want it. WAS willing to work with it before it was put in, but now realize that it was a very bad change, that highlights further fundamental flaws. Those that complained so loudly about farming, was the causality of this set of changes. Do you really believe that if those vocal few had NOT carried on so, that the developers would have on their own made those changes? If you do, please explain how you could know that?

Posters on these boards want to believe they are just pawns in what happens to HZ.

Such is not the case.

[Alladania]

Unless a dev opens a thread asking for suggestions, I don't post with the assumption that whatever I'm saying isgoing to influence the devs. I post if I feel moved about whatever topic and if I feel I have something to say.

We are all free to make suggestions for what we like and don't like. Most players don't come to the forums. That's their choice. If someone makes a suggestion, and the devs happen to agree with it (for whatever reason - something not generally explained to the player base) and they decide to change things, there are always going to be people that like, don't like, or could care less about, that change.I don't think it's reasonable to assign the original poster personal responsibility if someone else makes the choice to quit.

If I ask the devs to give me a few hundred gold, just because, that's probablyselfish (but what if if use the gold to pay other crafters to help me build something - enriching their coffers? Still as selfish?). If I comment that some ability in my class has issues and I make a suggestion that I think will improve it - that's not necessarily selfish.

Are you suggesting that no one should post suggestions because it might make the devs go nuts, change the game horribly and make people quit? How can the community ponder and discuss things if ideas aren't posted in the first place? I have to say I've seen some pretty lame ideas posted over the years(in my opinion) but I don't begrudge the person the right to post it. If I disagree strongly enough, I'll say something.

[LaughingOtter]

My turn to not be subtle.

Selfishness is an attribute that exists entirely in the mind of the beholder. Any suggestion can be considered selfish. It just depends on what each observer's wants, needs, desires, and depth of awareness are.

So your question is fundamentally flawed.

As for anyone who blames the vocal few... If you post here or join IRC more than once in a blue moon, grats, you're officially a member of the club. Welcome to the vocal few. Again, saying that "X is the fault of the vocal few who complained" is nonsense. Some players advocated a position while others advocated against it or for alternatives. A decision was made that matched one group's position. Next time, a different group's position might be the one that matches whatever decision is made.

So, yes, selfishness is good. Self-centeredness is good. Being vocal and arguing your position or advocating for your desires is good! Being selfish and loud helps the decision-making process by ensuring that a multitude of ideas and reactions are expressed and taken in to account.

[PJ]

Speaking asa card carrying member of the "vocal few", I'll speak vocally and plainly.

The idea of a vocal few, a secret IRC/focus group cabal, that controls/largely influences the development of the game is 100% pure equine excrement. The people who comprise this "vocal few" rarely even agree. I think I can count the number of threads where I've agreed with say Kumu on one hand (actually this one might require a 6th digit).

100% off the responsibility for thedirection of the development of the game lies with the Developers. The Developers get feedback from a variety of areas: support site, the forums, that large survey they did awhile back, they go in game overtly and get feedback, they go ingame covertly, they use IRC, they use the oft vilified focus group.

They get feedback from a variety of sources, and then make changes they feel are best for the game. The vocal minority does not make changes. If you or anybody else has any problems with a change, give them feedback: forums, IRC, etc.

Make reasoned well outlined posts that identify what exactly your problem is, and if you have one, a suggestion for a solution. Don't lash out at some particular scapegoat group.

[Khoal]

....
I asked a question and so far, gotten exactly the reponses I expected.

Then why even bother posting the question in the first place if you already knew what the responses were going to be?

...However, I can see that many of the changes that have driven off players have come after a vocal few have gotten the developers ear.....

Pfft. That's all I needed to see. That's right, Aamer. It's a conspiracy!

It'd be a waste of my time to write anything else, since the OP has no interest in hearing any differing opinions.

[Tantalyr]

Aamer, you serve up provocative initial posts and then pout when just about anyone disagrees with you. And more often than not, you post you are leaving the boards because of that.

It's very, very hard to take you seriously . . . .

[Safire]

...It's a conspiracy!

now that explains everything [:P]but at least it makes more sense to say then to say that its a vocal few that have the devs ears then again their isnt that many who are vocal.....are you one of the vocal few if you say something on forums rather than complain about things on forums? anyhow most of thoose things that we have the remember when.... forum about if we went into that time frame aswe are nowit would bore us with nothing challangeing to do...sure they took out alot of the old interesting things....to make the game friendly to small groups of newbs rather than groups of everyone low level

[nimklikesjugs]

well I'm 100% sure it wasnt my fault, because everything I ever championed got popped like a big yellow pimple

oh yeah been in Peru drinking pisco sours and cussing llamas

I tried to bargain with some fella selling bamboo cowboy hatson mancora beach, but he wouldnt trade for arbotus gullets. I was pissed.

chau

NimK

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

chau

NimK

It's CIAO y0!

[Death-knell]

Do topics like this help the game?


ummm....no!

[Aamer Khan]

Ok, I won't waste any more time on this thread [:)]

I only wanted to highlight selfish thinking and the justification used for it.

Thanks everyone for helping me out! [:P]

[PJ]

A good number of my ingame friends complain constantly about the group changes, craft changes, exp changes, performance issues, the list goes on and on...

Of course games like this are revolving doors, with old players leaving and new players coming in. However, I can see that many of the changes that have driven off players have come after a vocal few have gotten the developers ear.

Me personally? I hate the group exp changes that took place, since it basically killed guild hunts for us. I never called for it. Didn't want it. WAS willing to work with it before it was put in, but now realize that it was a very bad change, that highlights further fundamental flaws. Those that complained so loudly about farming, was the causality of this set of changes. Do you really believe that if those vocal few had NOT carried on so, that the developers would have on their own made those changes? If you do, please explain how you could know that?

So there's one side: where people think that a select few were the direct cause a set of changes to HZ that the population as a whole thinks is bad.

And another: where people think that those changes were not the direct result of any player "suggestions".

So one side makes a claim, and we have to substantiate it, and another just gets to make a claim and have it accepted as fact?

Well you asked for it:

The "vocal few" is not responsible for those changes, as the "vocal few" is divided with people who supported and oppossed all of those changes. Take a look at the forum threads where people debated those issues. They aren't 10 pages long because the "vocal minority" agreed. Same for IRC, or any other subcategory of people you want to label as the "vocal minority".

So given that the "vocal minority" argued both for and against the changes, the "vocal minority" as a whole cannot be responsible.

Posters on these boards want to believe they are just pawns in what happens to HZ.

Such is not the case.

No posters on these boards believe they are posters on a board, nothing more. Some want to paint them as more influential then they really are.