To Charter or Not: Discussion Thread

[C`gan]

Since I instigated this in the community meeting agenda, I feel it my responsibility to start the discussion here for those who wish to give reasons why they feel the charter should or should not be kept in advance of setting up a new one (if there is to be one).

My reasons for voting dissolution: the current charter has no provision in it to allow for amendments or revisions. It was, in a sense, set in stone, sealed in amber, and stuck. Also, I think the voting issue is very important as well. People are feeling slighted that their votes are deemed useless because they do not have more than one account, though it is evident that single account votes sway changes in the community meetings as much as multiple account votes. I think that we should look at other options on the table for how voting should be handled.

I do favor having a charter, though. It's not because I'm a team lead or because I think that having a charter affords me any more than anyone else. For me, it's a reference, particularly the section on WorldProjects that I helped form for the charter. When people ask me "Why is this channel here?" "What do you do?" "Who are you people?", I can show them what the charter says, what we're all about, and things continue on smoothly. It doesn't limit who can and can't be on the team, and I would be very upset if it tried todiscriminate in that fashion. It does not limit who can and can't participate on the building of the world projects. It sets criteria on what the world projects are and how one can actually have a player-owned crafthall deemed a world project if the community wants it built by the team.

Perhaps having a separate document for WorldProjects is an answer. However, for those who feel that Events Team or New Player Assistance Team or the Secretary need defining, I feel it's best to have all those definitions in one place. I can't speak for the other teams. I can only speak for myself and only concerning the experience I have with WorldProjects. I will put the caveat in here that I am not speaking as a representative of the team, nor am I speaking as sole representative of Obsidian Order. I'm just a member in this community on this issue.

[UlteriorModem]

A couple of quick questions for those of us whom are unaware.

1.) What is this charter, where can I find a copy of it ?

2.) What is its purpose ?

3.) How does it effect the average Joe player ?

[AA0]

The copy of the charter is somewhere in this forum.

Its purpose was to prevent a few people who wanted to be a leader and gain control/make decisions of how things should run from doing that.

It only affects you if you want it to, which is why its so ridiculous. Nothing will get accomplished in any meetings because of the formalties. Most people don't know it exists and just keep playing.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

no that was not its purpose....

in any case, keeping on topic...

I and C'gan seem to be on the same page here rougly.

I think the Charter should be dissolved because it doesnt' allow for amendemnts on the fly int he first place. I do feel things need to be reworded in a more simple and straight forward manner. I do feel the voting thing needs to be adjusted however the community sees it. Including possibly keeping it in the rooms it describes.

I do feel there needs to be SOME Charter to put SOME Organization onto it. My desires of a charter is much simpler than the one we have now though - as I can barely understand the charter we have now and I have NO Idea why those who created it felt it had to be in lawyer speak.

And I do feel that should there be another Charter it should be simple and to the point. It should have a way to amend and change the charter without having to dissolve the whole thing. It should have "voting" that takes into account if there is no other option for a position, as well as other things that crop up.

I do feel the forums should be given equal weight with those who have the time to appear at the meetings in game. I feel this will NOT be done without some type of organizing behind the system. I feel that without a policy to include the forums, then you end up with more of the negativisitic, elitist, feelings others are feeling towards the whole thing right now. Only then its limited to the "peopel who can show up at that one time every two weeks" vs "the rest of us who can't". Those who feel left out, as they do now, won't participate.

I feel keeping the forusm included is the way to include the MOST amount of the COMMUNITY to keep people from feeling left out (caps for emphasis, not yelling :)). All I've ever supported or verbalized about this thign is trying to give the most players possible a chance to include themselves, even if it means they can't make a meeting or two.

I honestly feel that if noone is held "accountable" for their positions of responsiblity then noone will take up those positions and stick to them as time goes on. That like all other community meetings in the past that ever got started, they fade away as noone shows up and the community shows no interest. Then players, old and new, who actually want to participate in something don't even know the first place to start asking - nor do they know anything about what is going on.

I don't care much how this all gets decided or worked out, I do hope that people realize that some type of organizing needs ot be done or else this will just fall through the tubes in a couple of months.

I do'nt think it needs to be as complicated as it is right now. But there needs to be something.

[UlteriorModem]

The copy of the charter is somewhere in this forum.

Searching "Charter" returns many many hits. None of them appear to be the actual charter itself.

Dont you think it would be a good idea to at least put a link to it ?

I suppose those that are "voting" on it already have read it. But Id also be willing to bet some have not. Its usually not a good idea to pass judgment on something by hearsay.

Besides Im just curious and would like to see it for myself.

[Tantalyr]

Look here UlteriorModem.

[Fyrentennimara]

I honestly feel that if noone is held "accountable" for their positions of responsiblity then noone will take up those positions and stick to them as time goes on. That like all other community meetings in the past that ever got started, they fade away as noone shows up and the community shows no interest. Then players, old and new, who actually want to participate in something don't even know the first place to start asking - nor do they know anything about what is going on.

LOL! "Responsibility"?! It's a GAME! For Pete's sake! Thank you for showing me the "real" motives here. I think this thing has gone way beyond stupid. Ugh.

[awdz]

I see value in a charter simply as a communication tool, nothing more since we can't really hold one another to it. If the current one does not suit most folks now that it's been tried a while, we can create something different, preferably simpler. Perhaps even justthe communitymeeting agenda and list of moderators would work, to be adapted as needed at any meeting.

I know structure makes things much clearer for some and more restrictive for others. As has been said before, folks will help out as they wish to regardless of the structure of the community gatherings or charters. Thebest reasons I see for naming certain individuals as leaders of a given group is to make updates at the meetings and coordinating group functions a bit easier. I don't know that voting can ever be figured out to everyone's satisfaction; for that matter, other than the charter and positions to be filled, what do we need to vote on? Aren't most discussions settled with general consensus about what makes the most sense when someone asks for advice?

I guess I'm baffled at why this is so hard... I'd just as soon let those who want structure charter their hearts out, and those who don't just help asthey see fit anyway. Could that work? I value folks in Istaria for the onlinefriendships we share and have seen everyone pitch in with help at one time or another. That's what makes me happy to be in Istaria. [8-|]

*wanders off to make a snow angel in Mahagra, then scampers to make a fresh batch of klava to pass out to any who wishes some*

[Menkure]

I've posted on this a couple of times.. the most recent can be read here: http://community.istaria.com/Web/Sho...?PostID=121006

I do want to make a quick clarification as to my stance, so that my stance on this is not in any way confusing to others.

I know, from what I've posted in the past, that it sounds like I'm totally against any kind of charter. This is actually far from the truth.

I'm Okay with having a charter.. I'm NOT okay with us having a charter that makes "Robert's Rules of Order" read like a children's book.

I'm okay with setting down a few rules on paper, but a charter doesn't have to be written in legaleese, and have an extra two pages of fine print.


What I would like others to think about though, is.. Do we really.. absolutely.. have to have one?

As I spoke about this in the past with the Spirit Guildleaders Council, we didn't have a charter.. and we didn't really need one. We still were able to get things done on Spirit, and we achieved the one thing we were working so hard to do.. that was foster guild to guild communications, foster and improve better relations, and foster growth in the community.

And you know, we had a much bigger community two years ago when they first started.. heck, we had a much bigger community a year ago. I remember the times I had the moderator chair, and it was sheer h*ll remembering who was next...

And back then, we really -did- have to worry about potential power-trippers... for we certainly had our share of them on the server. But despite that.. we still only had that one rule, and that was that the chair was a rotational position, purely volunteer.. and we didn't have any problems at all.

Why? Because we all knew that if someone came in and took over, running the show, they would be ostracised pretty quick... Or if they weren't, eventually.. the meetings would just be dissolved, plain and simple. And if that did ever happen, it was not like the whole world would come crashing down on everyone. Why? Because we knew, that it was just a game..

And right there.. That's the point. We don't have to set up our own legislative branch. We're not dependent on it like we are in the real world. Horizons is a game, and the rules that are made... the ones that are actually enforcable, are made and enforced by Tulga.


And like others have said beforehand.. If the majority of the people want a charter, and want to follow "Robert's Rules", that's fine.. I'll be in the field with my Fitting Mallet, Masonry Trowel, Carpentry Hammer, Essence Structurer, and Weaving Awl.. helping anyone who is working on any kind of project in all of Istaria.

-Menkure

[Yuusuke Akiyama IV]

UlteriorModem, and some others in other threads, have asked about the Charter itself... and Tantalyr has politely directed them to it. My thanks, and apologies for my tardiness.

Here is an Excerpt from the "Community Meeting Discussion" thread that has the entire work-up history of the Charter, including links to the discussions as to need, writing it, and its eventual adoption. I hope this helps add to the body of knowledge in the matter.

***

First and foremost: I would wager that I could easily come up with a score or two of folks, including myself, who would vastly prefer to have no Assembly nor pretention of governance by any Gifted. Sadly, our experience to date is that given the general desire to have "community meetings" and "community efforts", what results is a situation where a faction, clique, or autocrat (intentional or accidental) will begin to declare that they "speak for the community". This happened more than once before the worlds merged, and arguements over such doomed one of the first attempts at community meetings after the merge. This latest round I was party to the challenge when a group attempting to restart meetings took some liberties with claims of legitimacy (and in all fairness, were accused of things they did not claim <sigh> ) . This challenge was first formally raised here:

http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=80283

Some time then passed, with several side discusssions, before we reached this point in matters:

http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=90736

And a long long process went on as to if and how an Assembly should be chartered.

Some superb comments were also posted outside the main thread on this, for example:

http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=94665

Some attempts to draw out discussion also went nowhere, but are pertinent as they show there was an ongoing attempt by others to bring discussion to this matter:

http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=94728

And only after all that did it come to actually attempting to adopt a Charter, knowing full well not all parties were pleased. What compromises could be made were made for this attempt, and then it went to a public vote, here and in the meeting:

http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=104262

http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=106787

***

That is how we got to where we are now, and I look forward to seeing where and how we progress. The key, if I would offer such an opinion again, is not that any one Charter be adopted. The key is that some Charter be adopted, followed, and expanded upon by practice in the meetings so as to divorce the jobs of moderation, team leadership, and administration (secretary) from any one individual or clique, and make the Assembly a body of legitimacy gained from the "community" as a whole. However that is to be done, it is the one point I would strongly argue be sustained.

***

I will add one caveat at this late juncture:

If there is no need or desire to have a formalizedAssembly, no sense of a thing greater than individuals, then by all the gods of Istaria, we certainly do not need a Charter. It is only in the case where even one person believes that the process of having meetings leads somehow to the investment of any Authority to anyone who takes up a "leadership" task or position that we need one. Sadly, that case of "one person" trying to centralize power is not uncommon.

Good Charters limit what an individual can claim as far as presumed authority, and provide ways todivorce the individual from the job being done. Ways that work inside the process, rather than by "voting with your feet"... or as I said to someone months ago about this, that people will "...turn their backs..." on any who presume to speak for the whole community without having gained a legitimacy from said community.

My thanks for all your participation in this. May we all do good in this.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

LOL! "Responsibility"?! It's a GAME! For Pete's sake! Thank you for showing me the "real" motives here. I think this thing has gone way beyond stupid. Ugh.

*sighs*

Like this...

Thebest reasons I see for naming certain individuals as leaders of a given group is to make updates at the meetings and coordinating group functions a bit easier.

To make someone responsible for giving it a little organization. They aren't "Leaders" as in they can tell people what to do and force them to do it. They are all like little secretaries :), keeping track of what's been done, what needs to be done, and making sure it gets out to those who give a crap.

My *responsibility* is to make sure the forums are included, as I feel they are important. I feel not including people who are in the forum, and only including people who manage to show up at a meeting on xyz day at A time, is more restrictive and "elitist" than including the forums.

If I did not do my "responsibility" the forums would for the most part, get left out other than for annoucements, as they always were in the past. That is my "responsiblity".

I don't do it for myself, this isn't exactly "fun" I actually have to use free time for other things to get this in place. Granted its not much, but it is a little "task" I have to do.

So that is what I was speaking of.

And that is ALL I was speaking of.

And since people insist on using the "Antedote of how things worked on Spirit", well I've got a counter one for you "Antedote of how things worked on Dawn". Community meetings didn't last. This isn't just Spirit server, this is all three servers. And in fact, right after Merge they continued with what Spirit was doing - and what happened? It died ina couple months due to lack of participation. At the last meeting I was all of what..2 or 3 people who showed up.

I just don't want "Community Effort" to fall back to that again. Its sad and disheartening and if a little organization is all it takes (all its taken now for 6+ months I guess) to keep it going, then I'm for that organization.

[Tokoz]

I don't do it for myself, this isn't exactly "fun" I actually have to use free time for other things to get this in place. Granted its not much, but it is a little "task" I have to do.
So that is what I was speaking of.
And that is ALL I was speaking of.
And since people insist on using the "Antedote of how things worked on Spirit", well I've got a counter one for you "Antedote of how things worked on Dawn". Community meetings didn't last. This isn't just Spirit server, this is all three servers. And in fact, right after Merge they continued with what Spirit was doing - and what happened? It died ina couple months due to lack of participation. At the last meeting I was all of what..2 or 3 people who showed up.
I just don't want "Community Effort" to fall back to that again. Its sad and disheartening and if a little organization is all it takes (all its taken now for 6+ months I guess) to keep it going, then I'm for that organization.

Yes, I took the liberty of adding some emphasis to the preceeding quote.

Ahhh, but how to tell the difference between love of community and lust for power? It's very simple. Very very simple. What do they give, versus what so they gain? In the case of Team Leads I can tell you: You will always be able to see what they give. It's posted to the boards and channels and passed along from player to player. It is reported on at the meetings, and other shards have stood in awe of some of the things this community has done.

Each of these contributions that you hear about no matter if small or great, represents a sacrifice of time. Play time, personal time, family time. And to what reward?

Well it seems, the rewards are: sharp criticism, suspicion, jealousy, requests to do more and never less, and bandied insults from people who fail to understand that you will never get a community to 100% agree on anything. All of which make it so that even the least contribution shows forth more love of community than is compensated for.

And when something is complemented, what do the Team Leaders do? Defer to the community, who really earned it. Seems with a compensation plan like that they could work for TG directly and take all the abuse and at least get paid for it.

I have not voted on any of these issues. It is my intent to mostly stay quiet on them. But I add this: A charter is not needed so much as people who truly love the community aspects of the game and want to help others make the most of it.

The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

[Fyrentennimara]

Well, I'll tell ya, even with the explaination of the comments, and the common sense way of looking at it, this issue is scary.

This whole thing has gone far enough in my book. There are serious issues with decerning real life "order", from a gaming community, here. I think the server has hit rock bottom when the discussions are surrounding making some sort of charter for organization. I have never seen anything like this in all the games I've ever played. Not once. I seem to remember a post by Archebold that had a line at the bottom of it that made sense to me. No offense, but I just think this stuff has gone far enough. I'm seriously considering leaving Order. No, I don't care if you care, that is not why I said it. I said it to let people know that these things have no place in a game setting, under any circumstances.

I read the charter. It's full of legal type terms and is really frightening when you think about it. This is not a fraternal organization, it's a Role Playing game. When people start tossing this stuff around and it's outside of a guild setting, it's overkill.

I'm sure people would be more than happy to build things without any charters, without any team leads. Someone wants to post it on the forums, have at it. No reason to have a charter for that. But even this forum has gotten a bit over moderated, by people who aren't even mods! A special thread for voting? A special thread for discussion? Yeah, I think it's enough now. I doubt Chaos is having this sort of circus running on their server, and......it's looking greener and greener over there every.....single.....post.

[Menkure]

And since people insist on using the "Antedote of how things worked on Spirit", well I've got a counter one for you "Antedote of how things worked on Dawn". Community meetings didn't last. This isn't just Spirit server, this is all three servers. And in fact, right after Merge they continued with what Spirit was doing - and what happened? It died ina couple months due to lack of participation. At the last meeting I was all of what..2 or 3 people who showed up.

Believe it or not Frith, I'm actually quite familiar with Dawn. While I hailed from Spirit, my RL brother, Drekkus the Sslik, was of Dawn. He was involved in the community meetings, and in fact, hearing from him the problems that they were encountering, helped me and Drezin with the Spirit meetings.

I do know that, after the merger, the Spirit meetings did not last more than a couple of months. However, it's not really right to imply that it was unsuccessful because of a lack of charter or a set of rules. There are many many reasons.

After the merger, the community continued to dwindle down. Many many players left after the merger. The reasons are too many to list. It was anything from the fact that "Istaria changed so much... It's not the same anymore.. not what I remembered it once was".. to the fact that people just got burned out.

The guild I am in, Pax Patronarium.. went from a good 20 to 25 active members, to 3 or 4 active members.. Again.. lots of reasons to blame. People just got tired.. and for several, the massive push in leveling crafting and adventure schools.. the massive work to build a Tier V guildhall (and we did it in less than a week after winning Clearport).. A lot of people just got burned out.

And that did happen with those people involved in the Spirit guild leader meetings. No one ever claimed they were "secretary".. That didn't mean there wasn't one. Drezin, myself, and others who helped keep the meetings going... we all worked hard to make them work.

The first meeting, after merger, had a lot of people scared.. people like Tala, and many other members of the World Projects team, were afraid that those involved in the Spirit Meetings were trying to take over things and run the show. I totally understood their fears, even though this was far from the case, but.. how do you prove your intentions are genuine when people are already very paranoid?

And eventually, with friends leaving daily.. and the politics and bureaucracy that everyone was facing.. Those involved just.. lost steam. Burnout.. plain and simple.

But in the end, the Spirit Meetings did not totally fail.. We still have community meetings to this day, and thus you cannot say that the Spirit meetings failed.. nor can you say that the meetings on Dawn, or any other shard failed as well.

-Menkure

[imported_Frith-Rae]

ok..they didn't "fail" while they were giong...

they "failed" in that they stopped, for months at a time...

During this time, I know that *I* searched and looked around for something besdides building projects to be a part of...nothing.

I know other other players wanted the same...found nothing.

When meetings "stop" it gives the sense that the community doesn't care, that there is no community, that noone wishes to get together to do *anything*. That *can* make all players, old and new, disheartened and sad and wondering wether its even worth it to try anymore when noone even bothers....

Hency why when the "latest" effort started up, steps were taken to try and ensure we wouldn't have a huge period of time where there wasn't any community involvement "with each other" and "open". Perhaps they were the wrong steps, but the intention was in the right place.

Dawn's "community Meetings" fit and fizzeled, up and down, nothing consistent.

The current charter was hoping that things would remain "consistent". That's al lI saw it for.

Did it go overboard? perhaps - thats for each of us to decide for ourselves and I've already given that feedback here.

But once again, the charter affects noone who doesn't wish to be affected by it. The meetings effect noone who doesn't attend. Noone's required to do anything they dont want to do, be anywher ethey dont want to be, or NOT do anything they want to do. If you don't wish it to ever effect you - it won't. Plain and simple.

What I don't undersatnd is for those people who want nothing to do with it - why are you complaining? You just go out and have nothing to do with it. How is it not this simple? Why are you putting your two cents into a conversation that doesn't even effect nor relate to you in the first place - thereby trying to change something you have no investement in.

Why bother? WHy not just go on about your merry way? I know plenty of players active in these forums and the community who have nothinhg do to with this effort, and aren't affected by it as all - and manage to continue to enjoy and play and have fun with everyone else on the shard.

*shrugs*

just something I dont get...and now I'm babbling So I'll stop :)

[Fyrentennimara]

That's not the point. What the point really is, is what IF we want to go to the community meetings? Instead of going there, and having a nice meeting, hearing some news, hearing about the projects, where they are etc, we're having to sit there and listen to the ridiculous banter about charters? Why should anyone even bother going? Sure, we can play and have fun with everyone else on the shard, and we do. But our other choice is to boycott community involvment because there's a certain aspect to it that we want nothing to do with? Way to include everyone. No, this EXcludes a certain amount of people I think. When I attend a community meeting, I don't want to hear about the stupid charter. I don't want to hear about the lead crap. I don't want to vote on anything, and certainly don't want to waste my time watching nothing get done. The community meetings I've been to were too long, just given the fact that there was voting going on, on stuff that isn't vote worthy in an MMO.

"Who's going to be the New Player Team Lead?!"

We don't need one. This is a video game. So, for the time being, just keep on losing a few people at a time from the community meetings for all this elitist crap. When we could be better spending that time discussing maybe setting up a world project event, with a coordinator(that nobody minds, but leaders that have to be voted on? BLEH!), and discussing what kinds of data someone(no, no one gives a crap who)gathered on progress.

[Tantalyr]

As good Yuusuke's reprinted original post pointed out in the beginning, the whole notion of some sort of charter arose because a couple of players suddenly took it upon themselves to cloak themselves with the facetious claim that they somehow "represented the community" of Order when interacting with the developers (and, I suppose, anything else involving the game).

Me, I would have preferred to just let it go and simply chuckle at those players' pretensiousness.

There really wasn't a need for some community charter then. And there ain't one now.

[Fyrentennimara]

I totally agree with you Tantalyr. And I've got another thing to add.

Archebold, as a pointed out above in another post, had a line at the end of one of his posts that I found very interesting. It said:

"No, I'm not the World Projects Team Leader, I'm one of the people doing the work."

Basically, if those of us who don't want a charter don't go to the meetings to avoid it, but still want to contribute to community involvement, someone else is going to be all "leet" and take credit for something they did not A. find, or B. Build. All the praise and congrats and back slaps, go to all those "teams" even if those of us who think it's stupid and work anyway, aren't on them! I also know of one world project that was not found by the person who claimed they found it. They were told in a public chat channel, and then posted it as if they'd found it. Nothing but leet crap.

Notice that Archebold isn't at the meetings.....and has still contributed to WP, and no one recognizes it. They just sit back and take credit for all the hard work. *slap on the back* No, I'm not pointing any fingers, I'm just saying, go back and see the post for yourself, and read that line. It speaks volumes about how we do not need this total bunch of crap.

If we aren't at the meetings, and don't follow the charter, we get nothing. Thats tell me: "Don't do any work on a WP unless you're a part of this stupid charter, otherwise, no one will care and someone else will claim the work."

[Tokoz]

As good Yuusuke's reprinted original post pointed out in the beginning, the whole notion of some sort of charter arose because a couple of players suddenly took it upon themselves to cloak themselves with the facetious claim that they somehow "represented the community" of Order when interacting with the developers (and, I suppose, anything else involving the game).

Me, I would have preferred to just let it go and simply chuckle at those players' pretensiousness.

There really wasn't a need for some community charter then. And there ain't one now.

This shows a complete and total lack of knowledge. Complete ignorance of the truth. I really don't know what else to say.

[Tantalyr]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Tantalyr wrote: As good Yuusuke's reprinted original post pointed out in the beginning, the whole notion of some sort of charter arose because a couple of players suddenly took it upon themselves to cloak themselves with the facetious claim that they somehow "represented the community" of Order when interacting with the developers (and, I suppose, anything else involving the game).

Me, I would have preferred to just let it go and simply chuckle at those players' pretensiousness.

There really wasn't a need for some community charter then. And there ain't one now.

This shows a complete and total lack of knowledge. Complete ignorance of the truth. I really don't know what else to say.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks . . . .