So the PVP Arena is Live....

[Guaran]

Step back. Take a deep breath...

Can you tell us how this is going to possibly affect you?

The reason to ask you to evaluate it is so you can see for yourself these knee-jerk reactions are out of line. Then the anti-pvp people attack regular players who themselves are curious and would like to watch, maybe participate, so they inquire in Marketplace what it is, or where is it, and lo and behold someone flips out in a totally uncalled for manner.

I think that BS has finally died down in MP, but it's honestly the worst behaviour this whole thing has brought about. (take a look at yourselves before pointing fingers)

You have a viewpoint. But so do others. The only way you can understand is to go watch. You do not HAVE to join in any pvp to go to the arena and watch. You can never be forced into combat with another player either. You CAN safely watch and see for yourself how it works. And if you were one who jumped on others who may have asked about it, perhaps you can send them a tell in-game and apologize.

[Tantalyr]

I, too, despise PvP from my experiences in prior MMORPG's, and I, too, fear that the introduction of PvP in any form will attract players whose worldview is polarly opposite of the wonderfully mature (for the most part) player base Horizons has cultivated.

That said, I've yet to see any chest-thumping or trash-talking in any public channel on Order, including MarketPlace, nor have I or any of the numerous players I have contact with on a near daily basis been challenged even once, much less repeatedly, to any duel in the Arena.

So long as it stays that way, I have no problem with the Arena. I'll just sit back, wait and see.

[Fyrentennimara]

I know how it works. I've been there when it was on Blight. Just to see how it works. And I never went back. But I've seen other things in Market that make your point just as mostly irrelevant as mine. For instance, before the arena went live, a few people in Market comparing their "leetness", and saying, "I could drop So and So like a bad habit." So your request to evaluate it is denied. It's been done, I've made my decision reguarding it, and now I wait to see the information on how it's effecting the community, posted here. Until that time I do not log in. That, is my decision. Just like posting my view is. This wasn't a needed element in this game. Not for me, not for alot of us.

The arena might be very benign now, but give it a few weeks. It was benign on Blight, until people had to start telling others who they could "drop like a bad habit". Sure I know how the teams work, I know you have to join one to even participate. You can stand there and watch, completely uneffected. It's still PvP, it will still draw undesireable effects. Calls for nerfs, calls for classes to be axed, people bragging, people whining, people fighting. Hooray for that. So please, take some of that advice you just gave me, and take a look at the deep issue, before pointing fingers. I have done some homework on this.

[Guaran]

If you saw a message from someone in marketplace before the arena was added, how can you possibly blame the addition of the arena on that?

And if this happened on blight, which I always thought was supposed to be the tightest knit community of any shard, perhaps you took something out of context, maybe they were joking.

Sounds more to me like you have a personal issue with someone on your shard.

[AA0]

If you've really done some homework, you know the arena was almost always empty on blight, peak times were patch days... which then would be mostly empty, or a tiny crowd at best (except for the very start of the arena).

I'm more interested in the spectator part of the arena, watching strategies and classes fight can be fun... of course not all classes and people really know how to fight or keep it entertaining.

Having gladiators, and gambling rings could be fun... it probably won't happen, as PvP for the most part will just die off.

[Aamer Khan]

Very interesting thread.

I refuse to play here and respond to any change based on what ifs. Sure this could go bad. But will it? That's the part I cannot forsee.

I too hate PvP. Won't be going to the Arena to fight anyone. But, probably for different reasons than you think. I don't want to support it, nor will I take a stand against it. Either action just brings it more attention. After this post, I have no opinion on it. [8-|]

As some have posted here already, since you gain nothing from fighting there but a DP and possibly learning how a fellow player uses their skills, I see very little point in doing it.

I also don't feel that it will be advertized by TG, since it would draw the wrong crowd, and they in turn, once they saw that it was not what they were looking for, would slam TG on all the boards, and it would be a PR nightmare for TG.

Time will tell the tale.

But, since most players on Chaos are stable long term players, I see little effect from this going live. It does not affect me directly at all. If others want to go there, that's their choice. I personally can't see gaining a DP or 2 just to see how PJ or Jayne can kill a dragon. Perhaps some find that fun... pfft... to each their own.

[Adwene Blightstalker]

I like horizons mostly because of the crafting and nice people. I do not see the arena changing that.

What concerns me more than the chest beatingis that someone will meantion 'Arena' in the marketplace - someone with an extremely anti pvp attitude will jump all over them and say we don't want to hear about the arena and then a bung fight will start.... Much like this thread.

Why not ignore what you don't like (i'm sure people ramble on about stuff you don't care for already) and concentrate on the stuff you do like.

From my experience the people the game really doesn't want is the young teenie's that slag off at each other ect ect. Well, I can tell you now this arena won't attract them. Can you just imagine one of them saying to Jayne, hey i'm better than you and she will just turn around and 1 shot them... no fun for them and we won't see them again after 14 day trial. We get those kind now, think of those thatpower lvl up to fly a dragon and nag you over and over to help them... for them to quit 1 week after achieving flight.... This arena thing seems small potatoes to me.

[Stizostedion]

people worried about "kids" harassing you? having to ignore these kids that are ruining your gameplay by challenging you or boasting about killing you? kids playing video games...imagine that. an online video GAME that's, largely, based on killing.

what's wrong with some "put up or shut up"? someone calls you out....accept the challenge or back down. either way, problem solved. any fights i've had, in games or real life, have always ended in a measure of mutual respect, win or lose. so if one of these "kids"(because only a kid could enjoy killing something other than the same NPCs for 2 years) "harasses" you and calls you out....don't shut down too quickly. you could lose the fight and possibly gain a friend or hey! you might even win and gain a little confidence in yourself.

i met my best friend, of 15 years, when i noticed his fist heading towards my face. stranger things can happen, i suppose [:D]

[LaughingOtter]

People will whine, and brag, and call for nerfs, and complain they are gimped, and bicker and argue and call each other names with or without the arena. They did so before, and will do so if the arena goes away tomorrow. That's just people being people. The arena may figure in to this kind of behavior, but cannot be blamed for it.

The most serious issue raised thus far that IS directly related to the arena is that of harassment. That includes both sides; people being harassed to take part in an arena battle and people being harassed for talking about the arena in public channels. What makes this a serious issue for me is that Tulga has a very poor record on dealing with harassment complaints.

There are going to be complaints of harassment related to the arena. Some will be valid, some will not be, and some will merit a ban. I very strongly feel that Tulga should step up and demonstratetheir comittment to taking such issues seriously. When a complaint is lodged about conduct that would constitute sexual harassment if it occurred in a business environment, and no discernable response or consequence follows, and the behavior is allowed to continue unabated, it seriously undermines the company's credability on this issue. I recognize that actions taken on specific account cannot be made public, but when the behavior continues, one has to conclude that eitherthe consequence wasn't much of a deterrant or that no consequence was applied at all.

As the subscriber base grows, these problems will only get worse unless Tulga takes a strong and decisive stand now.

[Pariah]

Smug.... thats what I was when i challenged Guaran to a "duel" and thats what it was a duel , you cant PvP anyone without their permission.....back to the fight ...Smug... I opened fire on G as a gnome ranger with lighten arrows blazing ...figured this shouldlast about 15 secs......OMG I forgot about gold shield.....actuallyI remembered after I was cursing the game was bugged an G should be laying in the dirt and not me ....lesson learned ..... dont mess witha draggy till you know his gold shield is recycling .The three other times I,ve gone to the arena I've just watched , usually its one schooled or lower rated players having fun tryin out their skills in battle on one another , an learning from thier mistakes, if their was trash talk it was good natured an quite benign nothing nasty other then 'oh yah wait till next fight '.
The worse aspects of PvP are removed from the arena you cant be killed unless you choose to join a team and its a pain to get there.As to MP chat about the arena , the last timeI looked MP was the community chat an the amount of actual selling/buying rarely happens ,everyone uses MP because if they want to know something or say something that everyone will see they use MP, if the arena chat slides into MP , its just part of the community, the first night there I said hey we should make a 'arena channel' then PJ said it had been made 1/2 an hour ago ...doh..anyone not using it didnt know it was there an if you want to see whats happening on the arena you will more then likely see it there not MP, usually if theres a bunch of people out there they were all grouped an most of the chat was confined to group chat.....yes you can fight one another an still be in the same group...Chaos shard is the only one I play on so I cant an wont speak about unity or order nor blight , I just know how close we are on Chaos, an people abusing anyone are usually treated as a 'pariah' not the Pariah doom mind yah ,the days of caring what other people say in chat channels are long gone for me , camping the named Val/Rek/SoG/Dak are about all that is left for me after 2 years of game play , arena is just another diversion,for those of us that have beaten the game till the next named is introduced.I know Kumo or someone else that chooses will tear into my "rant' with all the gusto they can muster ,PvP isnt the end of this game for me an I have yet to see the problems that others have said will happen with dueling out at the arena.OK people rip into my thoughts about PvP.

[Senkeleron Fell]

The various mentions of 'cry wolf' in this thread are correct.

We, the people against PvP, have indeed cried wolf.

We cried wolf that PvP might come and were assured we were mistaken.

then the arena showed up on Blight

We cried wolf that PvP might come to the live shards and were again laughed at.

the arena is now on the live shards.

We cried wolf that it would cause grief, hard feelings, possibly might cause people to stop playing Horizons, and again we heard 'no, this will never happen'.

but this thread is full of grief, hard feelings, and threats of leaving.

How many times must one be eaten by a wolf before someone believes the call? Personally, I think it is too late now, once the box is open you can never stuff PvP back in...

[Tigris]

I really don't want to see WoW general around here [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-5.gif[/img].

Word. [;)]

[imported_Sablisk]

Where is it ?

I'm curious and would like to take a look at some time.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

you know that feeling..when you post to a thread...and feel like yoru post was entirely ignored for other alterier motivations by the rest of the posters....

...as if you never even posted....(points up to the top of the page)

EVEN ifyou feel exactly what you posted would HELP the very thing they are complaining and bitching to each other about (not get rid of it, but would help assuage some future fears....)...

...and noone notices....

...I feel like that right now! [:^)] [N]

*and again begs some mods to sticky the quote from DB, really does feel that in the future it could prevent more threads like this one - cuz we KNOW its gonna come up!* :)

[Menkure]

I cannot wait for the day that the Arena will be broken by a patch. At that point, I will ask that it is never fixed.

It was stated that developer time would not be wasted on this. (Stating that it was all created by "Lunch Time" programming. BTW, I have a bridge I would like to sell.)

It should stay broken from then on out.

PvP was added dispite Bowmans second mouth telling us it would never enter Istaria. Perhaps a different project, but not Istaria. Then it was stated that it would not leave blight as it was simply a combat testing tool. Then it went to live servers, but was inactive "Because it had to based on how the deltas are taken".

Excuse me if I say: PvP was a lie, wrapped in a lie, wrapped in a lie, wrapped in a lie. Though, it should have been expected of something based on PvP.

Okay, time for this cat to stir the flames a bit..

Kumu... Three years ago, when I heard about Horizons I decided to do some checking up on it and see what it was all about. This was at the time during their blackout, before beta. Even with the lack of information out, I came across the fact that Dragons were a playable race.

My immediate reaction was something similar to what many people have to the mention of PvP.

"Oh great.. Every egotystical jerk on the server is going to be playing a dragon."

And even when I read the Lunus story, about how the Lunus hated the bi-peds.. scuse me, Naka-Duskael, and wanted nothing more than to subjegate them and control them, it only added to my worries.

And my worries were not misfounded. From a design standpoint, I really felt that it just was not a good idea to add in a race that was extremely egotystical and overpowered by just sheer nature. The problems that could be encountered, from the jerks playing the race.. and even good people who were just roleplaying True to the nature of a Lunus Dragon, did on the surface seem to create more problems than if it was just any other race.

And by just the backstory, Artifact Entertainment seemed to want to encourage such attitudes and feelings. To me, it was like they wanted this.

And at the time, I didn't think Dragons ever should have been a playable race. Ever.

And yet, I did know that.. If Artifact did it -RIGHT-.. It could work, and might even be fun.

Some of my fears were misfounded... but with some others it was not. Back on Tazoon, I sparred with many dragon players, and I'm not speaking of good players like Pharcellus, I am speaking of those dragon players who actually seemed to take the dragon mentality just a little too much to heart.

Despite all that which has happened.. would I have asked for Dragons to be taken out completely? No. If I was a designer, would I have taken them out? No.

I did have my fears, and some of those did come true... but with how many players, both young and old, past and present, who had and are still having fun.. and were wonderful and excellent players.. people who sacrificed their time leveling their adventuring and crafting schools to help with the Satyr mines or Feladan.. In the end, you can not come to any other conclusion other than it was worth it.



In conclusion Kumu.. and others.. You shouldn't just jump up and say that something should be immediately taken out, or as you said, if broken.. stay broken. Afterall, displaying such attitudes only shows others that such attitudes are not only okay, but tollerated. Would you, after displaying such feelings, then be perfectly okay if Dragons were removed the next day because of only one or two real "Jerks" in the community?


And to anyone who points out "Dragons and PvP don't compare.. it's apples to oranges... blah blah..." I'm not making a comparison of dragons specifically, versus PvP specifically.. If you come back with that, then I know you totally missed the point, and I'll not respond in kind. No offense, but I'm just getting a little tired of explaining myself constantly to a select few who seem to have no more common sense than what God gave a goose.

-Menkure

[Tantalyr]

A snippet from IRC today that I thought relevant to the PvP discussion . . . .

[13:22] <Samael> I think it would be cool to play the aegis. kind of like a werewolf, you can transform into undead for a time [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img] would be fun to be a knight of destruction or an undead dragon
[13:22] <David-RememberTuesIsPatchDay> that's what the Fall Festival is for
[13:22] <Samael> There is your dynamic Aegis [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-5.gif[/img]
[13:22] <Flsssssh> Get a bunch of costumes next time Samael
[13:23] <Seranthor> I want to be a welgar.
[13:23] <Samael> I did. I mean for real.
[13:23] <Kepesk> Yeah. pvp isn't for me either. Mostle because it's rarely handled as a part of roleplay. It usually ends up being a game of killing players for the sake of killing players.
[13:23] <Valtur|Office> Yes, agree with Samael, having their skills would be fun for a change.
[13:23] <Flsssssh> Now what would be cool is if WA couldn't "see" through the costumes....
[13:23] * harves has left #horizons
[13:23] * harves has joined #horizons
[13:23] <Samael> make them weaker than the gifted so that they are a challenge to play. just would be fun to raid towns even if we get wiped out
[13:24] <AA0> that would be a neat idea.. but there would be idiots that prey on the weak then
[13:24] <Valtur|Office> Kepesk, if done right, can be great competition/fun.
[13:24] <Samael> make it so they can only attack stuff their level or higher.
[13:24] <Flsssssh> Dress up as a ghost or zombie and go wander around with the WA. They think you one of them...
[13:25] <Kepesk> I've never seen it done right. Maybe I haven't played the right games, but I've never seen it handled in a fun way.
[13:25] <Samael> You would do it for fun, knowing full well you would get yer butt handed to ya.
[13:25] <Samael> take control of a town and wait to be slaughtered
[13:25] <AA0> the only way really is with world masters, or other types doing it... they need to have some kinda responsibility
[13:26] <Flsssssh> responsibility? in a game?
[13:26] <AA0> to take a character and go off raiding newbie islands, etc... it would happen
[13:26] <Peaches> they could do that in daoc, but it rarely happened
[13:26] <Samael> make it so they cant port to newbie islands
[13:27] <Samael> or attack people below their level.
[13:27] <AA0> heh, how many exceptions can you make?
[13:27] <Peaches> I dont have a problem with consentual pvp, I dont like unconsentual pvp
[13:27] <Flsssssh> I avoid responsibility in real life....
[13:27] <Peaches> heh
[13:27] <Samael> think of it as dynamic aegis [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]
[13:27] <David-RememberTuesIsPatchDay> if it were ever to be done (and I'm not recommending it) I'd do it in the frontier and eastern blight
[13:27] <Valtur|Office> Agreed Peaches.
[13:27] <Flsssssh> Isn't the age of consent different in some states?
[13:28] <Peaches> unconsentual David?
[13:28] <Baela-TG> Just for the record AA0: My ETAs have been perfect for months now when I give them. So NYAH! and /taunt at you! =p
[13:28] <Samael> limit to Eastern blight would be nice. have them take damage like drowning if they are outside of blight.
[13:28] <AA0> I will dispute that [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]
[13:28] <Baela-TG> Dispute all you like! I still /taunt in your general direction!
[13:28] <Peaches> I truly wouldnt want to see unconsentual pvp in horizons, but that prob is just me
[13:28] <Samael> but give the blighters something to defend, like an aegis camp
[13:29] * AA0 ignores taunts
[13:29] * PJ would rather just have actual dynamic blight
[13:29] <Flsssssh> No, I agree with unconsentual PVP. That breeds PKs
[13:29] <Flsssssh> as opposed to PJs
[13:29] <AA0> I think its a good/fun idea samael, but the control is what is critical
[13:29] <Kyrieath> open pvp is horrible. imagine if you were out crafting and someone decided to be a real prize winner and PK you while you have crafting gear on?

"If it were ever to be done (and I'm not recommending it) I'd do it in the frontier and Eastern Blight."

So, if non-consensual PvP were ever to be done (and God bless him! David is NOT recommending it, right?), David would do it in the frontier and Eastern Blight . . . .

*goes off to peer into his cloudy Horizons crystal ball*

[Seranthor]

Ahyup... its a real b*tch to climb up a fast moving down escalator.

[Amerelium]

...I get the feeling that a lot of you don't understand that the arena was put in just as opertunity for us to have some FUN. I'f u don't like it, then just IGNORE IT'S EXCISTANCE...

[Kwinn]

This is the most ridiculus thread yet. PvP, anti-PvP, /ignore, do this, don't do that, somebody doesn't want the other damned thing. ************ on a crutch!

Tell ya what...somebody bugs me to 'duel, I'll laugh and say no.

They bug me again, same answer

They bug me a 3rd time, I just may grant them their wish. Hand em their ******, wipe my feet on their back and walk away whistling a merry tune.

Not your cup of tea? Then say no and ignore em. Don't answer tells, don't reply in chat and whistle a merry tune.

Now, wasn't that easy?

[Seranthor]

actually Amerelium its existance was for 'testing', perhaps some research would serve well before stating what you percieve as 'fact'... :) now if its your 'opinion' that its existance is for fun, well thats a matter of opinion.