So the PVP Arena is Live....

[Lumineux]

There IS no issue! Nothing has actualy happened yet! NOTHING! Except people arguing about what they think is going to happen. And then causing the very problem they are raving against. Everyone needs to chill out a little bit, I think.

[Cloe]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Cloe wrote:
I'll be sad to take my two accounts else where, whether or not it's the PvP or Non-Pvp people causing it to be no fun for me to log in any longer. This whole contention is upsetting for me.. If someone considers that whining, there isn't anything I can do about their lack of character to recognize that I am honestly bothered by all this and it isn't anything I look forward too.


Uh, is it that bad?

Although none of this would have happened, if that arena had never been stealth-added to the game in the first place. I think THAT is the real issue here.

Uh, I'm not the one to educate you on whether or not something is bad but you may discover that answer if you make differen't choices since the ones you've made sofar bring you to being unable to decern one way or the other. As the years weather your skin, I'm sure you'll figure it out.

As a hint tho, I could care a less if you left the game either.

Stealth is a minor issue that possibily points to, they knew THAT pvp was the real issue.

[imported_asteral]

Yup Yup, all the whining about the arena being added is far more annoying than everyone taking about the PvP!

I'm on Order, and i haven't really noticed The arena being mentioned at ALL on market. A few times the night we discovered it was open, but thats been it so far. All you people bitching and moaningabout it have been the biggest issue. Freaking out when someone uses the word...omg ARENA. What the heck....??? You don't like it in market? Then i'llassume you don't like the talk about daily issues. Or someones pet cat dying.Or someones Aunt Suzy havingtwins. Or about that nice new Rig your guild mate bought. Yeah market is just for market stuff *wink wink nod nod*


Generally speaking, If you're gonna make it an issue simply because-YOU- don't want to hear about it....i personally think thats pretty selfish. And if you're someone really really worried about using the ignore feature because you're afraid someone is going to talk about you behind your back? Think its time for the "This is a game. This does not affect your job, real life, social life, family life or any other facet of anything that matters." Because if you got someone mad enough to spit fire behind your back in a public channel eh well....might deserve it!

I think its just time to suck it up and wait to see how it turns out instead of going psychotic and launching a Crusade against it. But of course again. Its human nature to act before thinking.

If the arena brings inmore people, with nothing more than a little bit of good hearted teasing and bluffing on a few public channels, More power to Tulga. Because so far I can't even tell by peoples attitudes that its even been instated. Stop crying wolf already -.-

[Fyrentennimara]

Well, I find it annoying that not only did they not tell us that this arena was going live, but they also didn't do what they'd been asked repeatedly to do in IRC by several people. They even said they were considering the idea that was requested. The idea was a toggle switch, for those of us who don't want this pvp non sense, so that we could block all requests for pvp, all invites to the arena and all duel requests. Until they add this, I won't log back in. And if it takes more than 60 days, I'll go elsewhere permanently.

No, ignore is not sufficient. They need to either be responsible and make "concentual" pvp EXACTLY that, and go the entire way and put this feature in for us, or nix the whole thing.

[Lumineux]

Well, I find it annoying that not only did they not tell us that this arena was going live, but they also didn't do what they'd been asked repeatedly to do in IRC by several people. They even said they were considering the idea that was requested. The idea was a toggle switch, for those of us who don't want this pvp non sense, so that we could block all requests for pvp, all invites to the arena and all duel requests. Until they add this, I won't log back in. And if it takes more than 60 days, I'll go elsewhere permanently.

No, ignore is not sufficient. They need to either be responsible and make "concentual" pvp EXACTLY that, and go the entire way and put this feature in for us, or nix the whole thing.

They have added a TON of stuff in stealth fashion. My guess is they did this intentionaly, precicly BECAUSE PVP is not supposed to become some sort of a feature for the game. It is only there for the ocasional bit of testing and fun.

Now, how exactly would you propose your filter to work? That some sort of massive list of banned words goes in, and if a person says any of them, and your toggle is set, then you don't see their message? Frankly this is ludicris. Why is this such an issue to you? Why will it destroy your life if someone asks in a public channel if anyone would like to duel with him?

[Nimbus Hocken]

I have been a consistant subscriber since three days after release to retail of HZ. Only reason I didn't start sooner was because I did not receive my game from mail order to be abe to start play on release day. I have not ever flamed the game or Devs because I realize game developement is a massive task.

The mantra was "To Take Back What Is Ours". We did for many months. We rebuilt many deistroyed structures, Epic tasks to free or recall races, and take reclaim the Elven city, Feladen. We built cities and towns from rubble. All of this with the constant help and cooperation of raceswith the adventurers and crafters side by side. The recent projects into the Eastern deadlands was a hopeful sign of finally starting to talk back the those lands from the WA. Many of the new players I meet are surprised when given a tour of the places we have suceeded against the blight put upon Istaria. Great adventures areimpressed when I know of places to hunt thatthier greatskills offighting are practically insignificant. Almost everyroad or city or destinationI go, I look upon and think I helped build that. I remember whena patch turned into a search forthe newest community project that would push back the WA.And with that I felt some pride that I have had a hand in changing the game play and environment.

But now I see the blight of the WA in the minds of the residents of Istaria. And that is a defeat of the Empire, which if not turned, will reduce the Empire to selfishness and depravity.

We used to push the WA back, but now it advances at first in small steps, a hill top here, a valley there. But the minds of the residents are now falling to the blight in a small arena. If the minds of Istarians fall to the blight, then all is lost and I fear I will have no place to go where I might push back the enemy as I once helped to do in Istaria. And I will also not be able to stay. To bad, the Eastern continent has such promise.

The caveat "Game play might change over time", has proven all to true. And in a way I most feverently hoped would not happen.

I am only one, I do not have 100's of friends I will take with me, altho I may leave many friends behind.


Nimbus Hocken
Chaos, formerly of Twilight shard.

no 100 classes to brag about

just one of the very few subscriptions which have been paid steadily since release.

and btw.. RL Im 56 years of age.

[AA0]

People need to stop using the terms PvP. It is not PvP at all. You can duel, test, have group combat, but there is no possible way to have a PvP environment in horizons.

People just can't kill people, there is no way it can happen unless you make it happen. And I'm restating this because most of the people are just moaning and bitching without knowing how any of it works.

No big PvPer is going to come to this game because it now has a very limited, hard to reach arena and start trashing talking people. Not gonna happen.
What do you think people will do? Horizons have an arena... so they join, level to 100 in multiple classes, then start trash talking everyone? PvPers just want prey, they want to kill you when you are afk because it makes them feel powerful and uber, they want to steal items off you because they don't want to work for it.

People need to get real here and see it isn't going to happen

[AA0]

They haven't always been here. Horizons doesn't have the hardcore PvPers other games have, they long ago left.

PvE and PvP are too different crowds, horizons is still PvE, not PvP. Having fun in an arena is not the same thing. I have yet to witness anything negative because of the arena...

And if by they, you mean your petty constant open swearing arguements in market with someone else... then thats different

[Fyrentennimara]

Errr that is a stupid idea fyrentennimara. There is no official way to send a PvP request, so there is no way to block pvp requests (since they don't exist). The only way someone can make a PvP request is in a private or public chat. That's it.

And as Lumineux said, there is no way to filter such requests from a private chat[img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]. Even if they do ban such talk from public channels (and enforce it, which they don't currently do with any other rules on public channels), then people can still send you a tell[img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img].

If it was such a stupid idea, it wouldn't have been suggested by multiple people directly to the devs. If it was a stupid idea it would not have been considered and even commented on. If you think that the arena won't change from it's current state, sit by and wait. I'm sure it will. No telling when, or if a system would be put in place to send a duel request and teleport that individual to the arena for said duel. That is what I'm refering to. And as far as it being implemented without so much as a word, that's the real worry. It had been originally stated and the arena would never leave Blight, and alot of us were happy with it that way. Now it's live and all the human waste is hitting the rotating blades.

[AA0]

PvP would never leave blight, but the arena would. That was always stated.

[LexDivinia]

To date...

Has anyone actually been harrassed to go to the arena?

Has it interfered in anyone's gameplay?

How many people are enjoying it?

The only people I hear talking about the arena are those who do not want it here.

I understand there are people that do not want it because they believe other things should have been out first. Promises broken, so on and so forth. But give it a break. Things are going to be implemented on TG's schedule. And when that matches up with players needs, then great, otherwise, nothing to be done. End of story.

My two coppers worth...

LexDivinia

[imported_peladon]

My words are the words of a Fool, and they be but the whisper of a forgotten breeze. And thus they should be ignored and cast aside.

I walk the lands of Order, and Order is not Chaos. And the manner of those that walk is not the manner of the lands save only by commitment and intent. But these things I speak.

For the Arena I care not. That it lives, that it dies? Pfah. I will not walk there, nor dance, nor cast flame or bolt at another. Not by the will of my own, of my daughter, of Sonea Fair, of Law, of Drulkar... Did the very Oath command me there, then would I first die ere ever I set my claw to its lands. If others are different, what boots it to Sephiranoth? They are not Sephiranoth... though even Sephiranoth is not so.

THIS IT BOOTS.

I speak of Order.

There is the Foe. And there is the Great Treaty all have signed, that the Foe be no more. And that Treaty speaks that none that sign it will take force against another, that the Foe may be cast from us. And thus the old wars are no more, for the old grievances were set aside and no new ones made.

So shall we make new? Shall we have drake slay dwarf, Saris slay drake? Shall the clan and kin of those fallen, those shamed, though they may rise again indeed, shall they not take umbrage and seek were-gild in kind? SHALL THE OLD DAYS COME AGAIN?

Oh, indeed. I had forgotten. It is but a test. It is but a thing where those that will may make trial that they better slay the Aegis. For indeed we fight with Aegis talent, and Aegis magery and Aegis might and Aegis tools... Ah. We do not, is this not so? And if I fight mighty tigers, as all know, that makes me well fit to slay great serpents, no?

But it is but test. And thus we find the new Law. It. Is. But. Test.

Thus and so.

Shall I seek to raid thy hoard, that thy guarding be tested, and this be a proper thing?

No.

Shall I seek to call the affections of thy handfast, that it's virtue be set to proper trial, and this be a proper thing?

No.

Shall the Gifted slay the Gifted? Is the death, fleeting or no, of our company, our allies, those that seek our enemy's end, a thing of delight and of past-time and of no account? Does the slaying of one of our own leave no stain upon us?

My words are the words of a Fool, and they be but the whisper of a forgotten breeze. And thus they should be ignored and cast aside.


Sephiranoth, called by some ShadowSeeker
Drakonis of Order
Nobody and Nothing ever, save the Five do Feast

And lessened, each time we slay our own and not the Foe.

[LaughingOtter]

It had been originally stated and the arena would never leave Blight, and alot of us were happy with it that way. Now it's live and all the human waste is hitting the rotating blades.

No statement was ever made to indicate that the arena would stay on Blight. Quite the opposite. David's statement was, "At some point, it will probably become available for those that do enjoy it on other shards, but it will never leave the arenas and will never be the focus of the game."

I'm very opposed to PvP, but I went out to the arena with some guildies and earned a few death points - gave a few out, too [;)] - but it was friendly sparring, just for the fun of it. More than anything else, it reminded me of watching heavy weapons combat in the SCA. When we were done, we shared some ambrosia and went back to working and hunting together.

I'd prefer discussion of the arena be kept in a seperate channel. Not just because people do on occasion try to buy and sell in Marketplace, but because a seperate channel means fewer arguments. I expect that the majority of players are fairly indifferent on the arena itself, but really don't like the animosity and bickering in public channels, REGARDLESS of which side starts it. Those complaints are the ones that will get the Arena removed, not the anti-arena folks. If the Arena supporters keep discussion confined to a specific channel and don't try to debate the issue in public chat, there will be far fewer complaints from the general populace.

Those opposing the arena should not campaign against it based on what COULD or MIGHT happen. That's called 'crying wolf', and people get tired of it very quickly. Let people enjoy it, and wait until someone actually starts threatening or harassing people to go to the arena & fight. At that point, you have grounds for a complaint. Not before. "I don't want to hear about it in the public channels" - that's prior restraint on free speech, and if you try to play that, you will lose the effort and lose support for your position. Jumping on people who even mention the arena or tell new players about it makes you the harasser. Again, you will lose that fight and lose support and sympathyfor your position.

Further, if you want to keep the hardcore PvP elements out of the community and out of the game, stop calling the arena PvP and stop getting upset by it. Tell PvPers who ask about it the truth - no loot, no XP, no ranking systems, and the only people you're going to find there are going to be the ones that are ready for a fair fight. Hardcore PvPers will probably laugh and move on. If they get the idea that even hearing it discussed will set someone off, that's an invitation to have your buttons pushed repeatedly and often.

Again, I am 100% anti-PvP. I also support the arena. Friends going out for a little sparring or to test out various crystals in a controlled environment, or to work out new tactics, or to teach new players how to fight - that's not PvP! Not by the standard usage of the term in the MMO industry. The things most people seem to associate with PvP - surprise attacks, ganking people who just want to be left alone, stealing from the dead, etc. - simply are not possible at the arena. It is PvP only in the sense that players are fighting other players. By any other common usage of the term, the arena is not PvP. It's a sparring grounds.

Supportthe arenaor oppose it based on what it IS, not on what you remember or fear about the term 'PvP'.

[Fyrentennimara]

I'm speaking about a statement made by some other dev. And not here on the forums either, but I don't remember which one, and that's largely irrelevant since I don't engage in name dropping. The statement was, in essence, "...there are no plans to move the arena to the Live shards". But again, largely irrelevant now. It wasn't stated only once, but a few times. Now we have the very thing that a vast majority of players didn't want, and weren't prepared for.

Has it changed the face of the game? For me yes. Therefore, I wait to see what comes out of this before I even log on. Alot of people chose Horizons because of the blissful absence of one of the degenerative elements of MMOs. You don't want to call it PvP? Sorry, that's what it is. It's PLAYER vs PLAYER. Just like PvE is Player vs Environment, and PvM....you get the picture. Don't try and sugar coat the heck out of this element. It's still PvP anyway you slice it. And with that comes the one thing most of us have been worried about attracting. We already have these people playing, and they were waiting for this very thing. This is not the same Horizons it was 8 months ago, 1 year ago, 2 years ago. So, some of us will watch with a very cautious eye, and evaluate every ounce of information posted on this issue. I CAN spend my $80 somewhere else.......and will, if it comes to that.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]David Bowman wrote: Consensual, arena-based, team player-to-player combat is available on Blight as a testing mechanism for us. If players enjoy it, great. If they don't enjoy it, great. At some point, it will probably become available for those that do enjoy it on other shards, but it will never leave the arenas and will never be the focus of the game. It is a tool for new monster testing, for we can take a new monster there and try it out against players to determine if they are enjoyable or not.

Let me state clearly... We don't want to hear about player-to-player imbalances... We want to hear about ways to make the game more enjoyable for our existing customers while growing the users. We believe bringing an ongoing-war against computer controlled characters is the best way to achieve this (while improving client performance, fixing bugs, and fulfilling outstanding promises). In order for that war to feel like a war, there needs to be challenge, reward and an ability to influence the distribution and condition of the enemy. This is a tool for us to create that experience.

David Bowman

Quoting this seemed apropriate
http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=95212

I thank you for that Cobal, and repost it - because it is what I think needs to get stickied to these forums NOW!

And I thank you Guran for posting the NPC dialogue, for those of us who will never see it - it is nice to see that some of that is in game, even if couched vaguely due to it being "IC" :).

Please realize I did NOT start this thread for PVP bashing, PVP heroing, whatever (see stay gone for two days looks what happens). I really wish you guys would have gone to a thread elsewhere to rant about that....

I started this thread for the very reason I stated in the first post - for a dev to make a statement and for the mods to STICKY IT in the fourm.

To AVOID exactly what you guys are BITCHING about right now! (caps for emphasis not yelling, swear...)

Now we have the dev quote, I hope a mod will take that quote and sticky it at the top of the forum "Concerning PVP and the Arena..." (or whatever suitable title). I'm requesting to have this done, and if any else agree with me please do the same :).

Because honestlyu I think the "Stink" about the arena, whatever you see in the game right now, will go away to be replaced by other concerns as the "fallout" feared doesn't happen (I think it will happen a little bit, there are always buttheads around, but I don't think its going to ruin the game or anything...).

However, my concern was more for here at the forums, or tickets being submitted along the lines to change the gameplay, or call a change to gameplay, by new players based on what htey see in the arena. Because for them, Horizons from "day one" will have PVP content...they may be expecting something because of that.

So that sticky would serve as a reminder, to devs and players alike - that even players starting 6 months from now who aren't aware of our History know EXACTLY what the Areana is for..and what it is NOT for.

So if the threads start, all a mod need do is lock it downa nd point to the sticky....

THAT is what this thread is about.....

if you want to continue to rant about what you forsee is a seperate issue (PVP in the game at all, or whatever) please eithe rvisit the rant thread about this very thing...or start a new thread...

Prolly too late for my hijack but I had to make the best of it! :)

PLEASE MODS STICKY THE DB QUOTE!!! *begs* :)

[LaughingOtter]

I'm speaking about a statement made by some other dev. And not here on the forums either, but I don't remember which one, and that's largely irrelevant since I don't engage in name dropping.

It's not "name dropping", it's "citing your source". Here's the thread David posted in:

http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=95212

David's postis highly relevant to this discussion. Whatever may have been said by "some other dev" does not matter. David's the boss, and his statement is very clear.

However, the discussion itself seems to have been declared moot. The arena is PvP, All PvP is evil without exception, therefor the arena's mere existance will and has utterly destroyed the game, case closed. It saves so much effort and trouble to pronounce sentence up front and avoid all that tedious investigation and evidence collection. [^o)]

[Tantalyr]

However, the discussion itself seems to have been declared moot. The arena is PvP, All PvP is evil without exception, therefor the arena's mere existance will and has utterly destroyed the game, case closed. It saves so much effort and trouble to pronounce sentence up front and avoid all that tedious investigation and evidence collection. [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-40.gif[/img]

No, Laughing Otter, players here with experience of PvP from other (and sometimes many) other worlds are simply expressing their opinion regarding the type of players that PvP attracts. They have not declared, nor do they have any power to declare, the discussion "moot."

Obviously, your mileage with PvP has varied from those posters. Obviously, your crystal ball forecasts a different result than theirs. But your crystal ball is no more accurate than theirs. And their opinionsare no less valid than yours.

[LaughingOtter]

No, Laughing Otter, players here with experience of PvP from other (and sometimes many) other worlds are simply expressing their opinion regarding the type of players that PvP attracts. They have not declared, nor do they have any power to declare, the discussion "moot."

The discussion was rendered moot when the very real differences between the arena and PvP as done in other games were ignored under the blanket declaration that 'PvP is PvP'.

I have yet to see any anti-PvP poster set aside their knee-jerk responses and evaluateTHE ARENA.Instead of looking at the rules, the limitations, the legitimate uses,and the actual experiences of those who have chosen to participate, every anti-PvP post I have seen is aboutother games, other systems, and the schoolyard bullys the posters encountered. 'PvP is PvP'allows nodiscussion and no dissent. It is blind prejudice wrapped up in self-rightousness and Iconsider it far more destructive to the community than the arena could ever be.

If my words sound harsh, then come back with argumentation about the arena as it is - not with bad memories of other games. I abhor PvP and the people it attracts as well, but I maintain that the arena does not qualify as PvP under the common usage of that term, and that the limitations on it are severe enough not to interest the hardcore PvP players - therefor, those objections and concerns are unfounded.

Lets talk about this specific fact pattern - not prior bad acts, and not hypotheticals.

[Athos_earth]

I've been to the arena with a few friends..we had a few fights and we all enjoyed it. From what i saw no 1 started shouting out that they were the best and all others were losers or started demanding ppl fight them. From exp i know what ppl are worried about that this might attract the wrong sort of player for this game, but aslong as it isn't advertised it probably won't. The reason I'm sure, is because thisis not the type of pvp they'ed go for. Alsoin another of my online games that i play i am a pvp pirate and so i know alot of the type of ppl ur worried about and as i said b4 the arena's form of pvp is not the type their interested in due to the fact that theres nothing to gain from itso if they did come, they'd soon realise it's not what they're expecting or use toandmore than likelyleave shortly afterwards.

I do agree with theidea that an official statement is needed to let ppl know what the arena is so ppl know that on the whole this wont have an affect on the gameplay of hz.

[Fyrentennimara]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Tantalyr wrote:
No, Laughing Otter, players here with experience of PvP from other (and sometimes many) other worlds are simply expressing their opinion regarding the type of players that PvP attracts. They have not declared, nor do they have any power to declare, the discussion "moot."


The discussion was rendered moot when the very real differences between the arena and PvP as done in other games were ignored under the blanket declaration that 'PvP is PvP'.

I have yet to see any anti-PvP poster set aside their knee-jerk responses and evaluateTHE ARENA.Instead of looking at the rules, the limitations, the legitimate uses,and the actual experiences of those who have chosen to participate, every anti-PvP post I have seen is aboutother games, other systems, and the schoolyard bullys the posters encountered. 'PvP is PvP'allows nodiscussion and no dissent. It is blind prejudice wrapped up in self-rightousness and Iconsider it far more destructive to the community than the arena could ever be.

If my words sound harsh, then come back with argumentation about the arena as it is - not with bad memories of other games. I abhor PvP and the people it attracts as well, but I maintain that the arena does not qualify as PvP under the common usage of that term, and that the limitations on it are severe enough not to interest the hardcore PvP players - therefor, those objections and concerns are unfounded.

Lets talk about this specific fact pattern - not prior bad acts, and not hypotheticals.

Well, what did you expect?? You want people who don't like PvP to evaluate the arena?! Give me a break! They don't like PvP. The arena is PvP. It's players, whacking other players for fun and sport. In a game that was blissfully PvE until a week ago today! Now the game is a nice cookie cutter MMO. Both PvM and PvP all rolled up in a nice laggy box. Of course the arena isn't traditional PvP, we all got that part, but it's PvP in it's own form. A degenerative element of MMOs that alot of us would desperately like to be without! Some of us chose Horizons, and came back to Horizons because of the lack of PvP in any form! Only to be thrown a few bones here and there, with leet mob events, housing, and dragon lairs and ARoP, then be slammed back into the very thing we left in the first place. A game, with a form of PvP in it. Ultima Online has PvP, and it's basically just like the "New Horizons PvP". Go to a specific facet, get PvP. WoW has PvP, and it's controlled too. Go to the battlegrounds, flag yourself, or roll on a full PvP server. Cookie cutters! Yay, Horizons has now become, "run of the mill". We got dragons and PvP.

Horizons was already on thin ice with alot of people to begin with. The client issues, the stale events, the class issues, the new DP changes. This was the very last thing this game ever needed. Instead of working on something worth while on a lunch hour, we get this. Which was not needed, and in most cases, not wanted. So yeah, you get knee jerk reactions, Otter. Sorry, but this is an MMO, and apparently one just like all the others. So, don't sit there on your high horse and tell us we need to evaluate something we don't want. On the contrary, we can choose to play a MUCH more stable game.