So the PVP Arena is Live....

[Jayne]

Yes, as I said before. It's sad. I understand that people don't like PvP, and everyone has there opinion, but please don't just start a fight in the MP. I have witnessed a few times now where a person that wanted to have fun in the arena or someone just asking for directions to the arena has gotten blasted by a anti-pvp person. Two wrongs don't make a right. These people are only asking questions and were very courtious when they did so, but got hammered instantly. Luckily the party whom did jump the gun appologized and I respect that person alot. He even said he was out of line for what he did. He knew he was at fault. Its funny how so many worry about being harassed over PvP, but do you all even see the other instances of harasment in the MP???? I see players flaming other players, players talking bad about the game, etc. To me harassment is harassment no matter what kind.

I am hoping people will just let it go and relax for the time being and let the excitement settle. I think that the arena is fun, yet I don't plan to be there everyday and I respect those that choose not to go there.Its just something else to do if one chooses, thats it.

Jayne

[Adwene Blightstalker]

"We cried wolf that it would cause grief, hard feelings, possibly might cause people to stop playing Horizons, and again we heard 'no, this will never happen'.

but this thread is full of grief, hard feelings, and threats of leaving."

Quoting someone... this was a self fulfilled prophesy about this thread causing grief.... and if you 'anti-pvpers' go on and on and on about it you'll be the ones destroying the nice atmosphere on the shards, not the pvpers!

[Justa Mirage]

I haven't commented on this thread only because I usually stand on the fence between the two sides, and see the merits of each.

Having been an Asheron's Call player for 5 years I saw PVP and wasn't too happy with it. I lost good items (which drop on death in that game) due to the screwed up system of what it chose to drop. you had to visit an alter and worship the evil in the world (Bael'zharon) to get PK status. You were that way until you visited sanctuary and "un-did" it.

Then they introduced a "lighter version" called PKLITE... you could activate the PK by simply typing in a /pklite, you gained no "death penalty" you lost no items, and generally, it was no-risk PK. I warmed up a little to that as then i could have fun with guild friends in a controlled environment. But still, everyone bailed from PK and began doing PKLITE. The Serious PK'ers started whining because there was no-drop and no risk to being a PK'er and the loot they got from their victories fueled their needs for cash. But eventually, over time, most everyone was typing /pklite to satisfy their bloodlust for proving to others that they either:

Were good at PK, or were good at using animation exploits and cheats to acheive their goals, and then the "stick it in your face" speech of how good he/she is.

Ever since Gygax invented D&D, players were doing "mock battles" with their characters against each other... and this goes back a ways (and so do I) that PK was always going to be a factor in MMORPGs no matter where you go. FPS games fueled this as well. What fun it was to play Unreal Tournament and go "hunting" your friends in a virtual setting.

I was happy that Horizons didn't adapt a PVP environment and stuck to the carebear RPing that you don't fight your fellow man (or dragon, or saris, or ... etc) that we fight together for the common good.

Adding a PVP arena is just that.... the "What if" factor.... what if my character fought it out with a 100th level dragon... who would win, what tactics would I use? Primarily for fun the arena should be, and none of this "Player, you are such a jerk, let's go settle this at the PVP arena!" as this is NOT what the arena is for.

If any of you play City of Heroes (or villains, or both) you know what a dismal failure the arenas were there. 99% of the time they are empty. You now can get your PVP by entering crossover server areas when the CoH and CoV players collide.

Things that fuel the hatred for PVP: Ganking, trash talk, one-upmanship, egos...

Things that are good for using PVP arena: Occasional fun between friends in the game for breaking the monotony of doing PVM and test your skills against another human controlled character vs. AI

Everything will always have "pure anti's" and "pro PVP" arguments, unfortunately. I find it quite silly... it's just a game, and you the character choose whether or not you enter into a hostile environment and do battle with your fellow istarian. It's not forced on you, and it's not penalizing you if you don't.

So just don't worry about it.

Have fun.

Play the game your way and don't stress about it.

and keep the "arguments and trash talk" out of marketplace please... go create your own channel to spread the testosterone.

[Amerelium]

...u should do the same. It was put into Blight for testing. It was put live because a lot of people were having fun with it...

actually Amerelium its existance was for 'testing', perhaps some research would serve well before stating what you percieve as 'fact'... [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img] now if its your 'opinion' that its existance is for fun, well thats a matter of opinion.

[Seranthor]

...u should do the same. It was put into Blight for testing. It was put live because a lot of people were having fun with it...

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Seranthor wrote: actually Amerelium its existance was for 'testing', perhaps some research would serve well before stating what you percieve as 'fact'... [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img] now if its your 'opinion' that its existance is for fun, well thats a matter of opinion.

And you have what facts to support this sir?

[Stizostedion]

exactly kwinn.[:)]

[FleshRoast]

I'm more interested in the spectator part of the arena, watching strategies and classes fight can be fun...

Actually, This is a very good and valid point.

Before I elucidate, I am wholeheartedly against PVP. I don't care for the hard-core PvP players values. They're aren't necessarily bad, just not mine. I prefer the PVE, that's just my style.

That being said and made clear,the arena is a great way to practice and discover what spells and strategies work best against what defenses. I can easily see guilds taking newbies out there to give them first-hand fight experience. Against a high-level player, newbies' attacks are not likely to kill, resulting in no DP's.

If, later down the road, the arena could be used to summon practice mobs, the living races could better learn how to defend themselves. While the good/evil races have basically the same classes, the buffs do not offset each other as they would in a true battle. Fighting a cleric isn't the same as fighting a blighted cleric.

As with most things, they can be used for good or bad depending on your point of view. Yes, it could and may draw some "unwelcomed" attention. It can also be used to better hone our HZ gaming abilities.

[Phillip]

Idon't care for PvP either but one of the reasons why many people wanted it way back then (most of them quit) is because the PvE aspect wasn't satisfying enough.

This game don't need PvP. It needs a real war, PvE.

[Menkure]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Menkure wrote:In conclusion Kumu.. and others.. You shouldn't just jump up and say that something should be immediately taken out, or as you said, if broken.. stay broken. Afterall, displaying such attitudes only shows others that such attitudes are not only okay, but tollerated. Would you, after displaying such feelings, then be perfectly okay if Dragons were removed the next day because of only one or two real "Jerks" in the community?

If dragons were adding during "Lunch break" (BTW, did you want to buy that bridge?), and the game was not designed with them in it from the beginning, and they had stated that they would never be added, and then that once they were added they would not leave blight as they were a testing tool...

Nope. I'd have no problem with the removal of dragons. What a silly question.

Kumu: You missed the last paragraph after that.. let me quote it for you:

And to anyone who points out "Dragons and PvP don't compare.. it's apples to oranges... blah blah..." I'm not making a comparison of dragons specifically, versus PvP specifically.. If you come back with that, then I know you totally missed the point, and I'll not respond in kind. No offense, but I'm just getting a little tired of explaining myself constantly to a select few who seem to have no more common sense than what God gave a goose.

It is not so much a comparison of Dragons and PvP.. but the attitudes displayed by people.. yourself included. And, just as I had figured.. you totally missed the point.

-Menkure

[Menkure]

Sorry if I make my points obtuse, Kumu. I'm glad you caught it then *smiles*

Now, as for the other thing which you have brought up.. and I'll try not to be so obtuse this time.

The devs started off by saying "PvP will never enter Istaria. Perhaps if we make a Horizons II or a new project...", then they added it by "Lunchtime" programming (Want that bridge I mentioned?), when they added it they said "This will be a tool on blight to test combat.", then they moved it live and said "It had to go live because of the way Deltas are captured." and it was inactive. Finally they activated it.

The job of a developer is the absolute most hardest job anyone can have. They make a game that is purchased, played, and love/hated/loathed by so many people. Communities are formed around their games, and people take everything the developers say and do to heart.

But developers, like anyone.. are human. And as such, they have every right to change their mind. It is their game. They can honestly do with it whatever they wish.

No developer ever said that they promised that PvP would never be in Horizons. No promise was ever made. No single developer ever said, "We promise that Horizons will always be and remain a PvE game, and that PvP will ever be added."

If you can find a quote similar, in which a developer actually promises such a thing, then please, do post it. *smiles*

Now. It's one thing to go back on a promise, but no promise (again, to my knowledge) has ever been made. Only words. Now, words are different. Can you go back on your words? Yes. Will people like you for it? Depends on what is said, and how it was supported by those who heard those words.

Nevertheless, words are not binding (Not unless in a written contract *smiles* ).

People can change their mind. In some situations, it is absolutely necessary, and no one will hate you or place any fault or blame for you doing so. Other times, people may not feel it was the right decision. Still, it is their choice, as your own choice is yours and yours alone.


Now.. something else to consider..

Some of you might not realize the potential good that can come out of this. Has any of you thought that the devs may be looking over the very logs from the Arena? As a person who has worked on games before, I know that such information can be a gold mind to developers and game programmers. It can be analyzed, and the data can not only be used to improve individual classes and even aid in class rebalancing, but also in improving mob AI. By watching other players use their own abilities on others, and practice against live opponents, it can assist a programmer in rewriting the AI code, and actually give players a challenge in the Withered Aegis.

I'm not saying Tulga is doing that, but I myself see the potential for such an arena and how logged data from it could be used to better improve the game. Such an incredible tool, and the benefits from it, to me would warrant testing it out.

And I can see someone piping up and saying "Soo! Keep it on Blight! That is the test server after all!!!"

But in the end, did the Arena really get that much use on Blight? And that is a serious question, as I've not logged into Blight in ages, nor do I hang out on it really at all.

IF I was to wager a guess though, I suspect it didn't get all that much use. It probably did get some, but not near enough. Certainly bringing it to the live shards would see much more use.. heck, logistics and numbers clearly show that having it on all shards brings it to a much broader audience than if it was just on one.


I would hate to see something that has the potential.. not just in providing valuable data that would assist the devs in class rebalancing or reprogramming the mob AI, but also in providing some fun and enjoyment for the players as well, be taken out.

-Menkure

[Senkeleron Fell]

Too long to quote, but your basic point seems to be that therefore we can't trust anything they say, because they can change it at anytime...

[Jayne]

No Menkure it didnt get much use on blight. When it was first introduced, we that thought it would be fun flocked there and had fun. But its not worth logging out of one shard to another to find no one there. Now that its on my regularshard great. I can easily go there whenever I want.

You know I don't see the difference in the shards. Blight maybe the testing server but it is occupied by regulars whom use it as they main server. In that regard I concider all the shards, just shards. So I think it should be available on all.

Jayne

[Aamer Khan]

I'm going to add my final comments on this subject and let it drop.

So far, after the short while where the arena has been in game what do we see happening? Have the fears, that were so strongly posted by the anti-pvp's, been realized?

Actually, what I am seeing is nothing like that at all. What I am seeing is the anti-pvpers causing much more grief than any of those going to the arena. MP becomes a battle ground of words many days, with the staunch defenders of the "what if this happens" crowd, jumping those that dare to use something thats ingame.

And I also hear from those that go, are mostly highlevel players with multiple classes Those that are making use of the arena are not newbies, not scads of low level, powerleveled maniacs.

Fear of "what if" has fueled this debate for much too long. When did we all forget this was a game we choose to play? When did we forget that the actions of the developers have really changed very little in style and implimentation since this game came out. When did we forget that we have full control of what WE do and no control of what the DEV's do?

So far? This is all much ado about nothing.

[HratLi]

:) I dislike PvP as a general rule, but since this is not a NonConsensual thing I see no problem at ALL about it. Like many have said since launch, this game seems to attract a more mature crowd of players. As far as I am aware, all of us value our reputations to some degree, in particular because of how small and relatively tight knit the community is.

Noone is hanging out at the portal waiting to jump whoever comes in before they load, there is no gang of gangkers camping every port or resource in a disputed area... if someone is immature, that word spreads fast, and they will no longer have anyone to play with, or heck, any new gear for that matter (I, and about anyone I know would be VERY unlikely to craft anything for a known dishonourable character or even player).

We can CHOSE not to enter the arena, we can choose NOT to join a team, heck if you knowingly go to the arena and join a team with all the warnings you get, you are getting what you are asking for.

Anyways, I have not seen the end of the world with the introduction of the Arena, and true to what others have said, most of the wails of lament have been coming from hard core AntiPvPers overreacting to an innocent inquiry or two in MP.

Heck *I* might even try it out a bit :) It'd be great for testing out tactics against certain classes that would be just as applicable to the WA forces as our own. For instance, I have always been interested in how long I could sustain a full grown dragon's assault, if I could even land any significant blows on a fully armoured fighter for instance. Not for balance issues, but just curiosity.

One other note almost related topic:
I DO think that it was kinda chicken of the devs to just flip this on in LIVE without any notice or patch notes, but then again *I* would not have wanted any part of the ranting and backlash from announcing it either... [:S] Still, the patch notes could use a LOT of work. There are soo many changes, fixes, and updates that just never make it into there, and it's unsuprising that bad things get patched out, even people on blight don't know what needs to be looked at, let alone finding a high level of a particular class to test a change to a new ability. Heck, it took like 4 patch cycles to get a functional 'Spirit Punch' after it was 'buffed'. There are apparently no high level SpiritD's on Blight, so I had to wait for live, try it, see it wouldn't work, make a ticket, wait for change to go to blight, then to live, rinse repeat.
-HratLi

[Jayne]

The fact of the matter is no one can guarantee anything. And all successful businesses never weed all options out. We get better by trying new ideas and such. We try things and we make them better. Its a never ending cycle

Jayne

[Seranthor]

I gotta say I agree with Kumu on many of his points here.

The storm has not arrived, YET. But the day approaches when it WILL arrive. Once headed down the slipperly slope its no longer a matter of IF it will happen, its now WHEN.

As far as 'lunchtime' programing, I'd have settled for 'coffee break' programming of certain other things that have been left thusfar untouched, with the exception of a lot of talk, since the inception of many classes.