Feedback about school: Dragon Lairshaping

[JDavidC]

I've talked with someone who knows about biped construction, and found out some nasty differences that are making lairshaping unnecessarily painful.

Bipeds only ever need ONE type of raw resource to generate a construction unit. The only minor problem is that to complete a building, they need to switch between 4-5 classes. However, seeing as you could start more than one building up at a time (much more difficult to do in lairs, especially if you're just putting the first room in)... you can easily grind loads of one type of construction unit and slap it on all the buildings, then just switch to the next school... rinse and repeat.

Lairshapers, on the other hand, have to deal with ALL construction units requiring AT LEAST 2 raw resources to create. Many require 3 raw resources and 1 type (which is one of the most commonly used) requires FOUR!

The problem with this is that having to deal with multiple types of resources means we CANNOT use a 1-stack only cargo disk effectively. It also means we need silos FAR more than bipeds do, and it's much more trouble to get silos up in a lair than it is to place and maky MANY biped siloson a grass field.

This class NEEDS better silos in lairs that can store MULTIPLE construction components (maybe make special silos that can only store stacks of certain types of items used in lairshaping constructions), and flying cargo disks that have high bulk capacity and canhave 2-3 stacks on it. As it is, not having these things dragons need for their radically different construction school is imbalancing construction to the point where bipeds would have a much easier time building than dragons. Also, seeing as adults/ancients are MUCH larger than anything else, why shouldn't they be able to carry a lot more, AND harvest a lot more of a resource with each dig (it doesn't make sense that an ancient can harvest the same amount of resources per dig with a claw larger than a dryad doing the same job with tiny tools).

Lairshaping seems fine for the most part,but we need to be able to make different equipment structures to accommodate the different way the class works. Personally I find lairshaping is far too painful with having to go all over the place to farm different resources just to make one type of construction unit. It needs to be brought in line with other classes so it's a fun grind, not an absurdly difficult, tedious grind.

[AmonGwareth]

Thank you for the feedback on Dragon Lairshaping. Dragon storage chambers have already had their storage and construction requirements addressed and this is now working as intended. The cargo disk is something we're looking into to. Thanks again!

[Seranthor]

JDavidC perhaps you'd rather level 5 schools to make your structures instead of just one. I personally find Lairshaping nothing more than an exercise in forward planning, smart plans make it go very fast, flawed ones make it go painfully slow.

I speak from the experience of having leveled all 5 biped construction classes to 100, building 3 75x75 plots from scratch, from leveling DLSH to 100 solely on building and having nearly 50% of my total lair complete already.

I"m sorry, flying cargo disks would be an example of giving dragons far more than balance wise than bipeds ever have had, as far as disks that hold more than one material, they already exist. They have many names, just not tarbash.

[JDavidC]

JDavidC perhaps you'd rather level 5 schools to make your structures instead of just one. I personally find Lairshaping nothing more than an exercise in forward planning, smart plans make it go very fast, flawed ones make it go painfully slow.

If I found I could just level each school by just working with 1 raw resource at a time... then yes,IWOULD rather level 5 construction classes. As for lairshaping, there is still the problem that you need to use multiple silos (often biped ones to start off with, unfortunately for Lunus draggies) to store your materials.

I speak from the experience of having leveled all 5 biped construction classes to 100, building 3 75x75 plots from scratch, from leveling DLSH to 100 solely on building and having nearly 50% of my total lair complete already.

It's not necessarily the LEVELLING of the classes that is the main problem (that annoyance is only there until you're optimal on T1 stuff IMO... but doing so as a DLSH is somewhat difficult), it's the fact that you keep having all these horrible grinds through different types of resources just to build stuff. It's not use raw resource A to get construction unit A or anything simple like that. It's MUCH more complicated and no amount of forward planning is going to prevent the requirement of silos or better storage space to ease the sheer pain of having to run around getting multiple resources for one type of construction unit. Bipeds do NOT have to deal with this, EVER. They get the convenience of being able to use a tarbash because a. They only need to cart ONE type of resource with them b. It holds more than non-tarbash disks (except for the min/gat god disk) c. It can be hauled through teleport gates. For dragons, tarbashes are often not an option, and it prevents them from using teleport gates, and they have to do with less storage space to boot. Even if dragons did use a tarbash for all the resources, they'd need SEVERAL silos just for one construction unit. It's going to taketime for a dragon to put several silos in his/her own lair (assuming dragons are NOT relying on bipeds)!

I"m sorry, flying cargo disks would be an example of giving dragons far more than balance wise than bipeds ever have had, as far as disks that hold more than one material, they already exist. They have many names, just not tarbash.

No, dragons have MUCH more intensive resource farming than bipeds do, plus they have wings they can use to fly higher than dryads. It kind of boggles my mind as to how dragons would build lairs in the first place if they didn't have their own mobile flying transport, along with storage on a larger scale than bipeds (compare a lair to a biped plot, the lair is naturally MUCH bigger). Face it, dragons are BIG, they should be capable of using large scale storage devices for transporting resources they can use to do their work. They should also be capable of harvesting resources faster due to their size (i.e. massive claws digging up loads of resources at a time) As for the other disks, I went through why they're a disadvantage that bipeds do not have to suffer. As far as balance is concerned, bipeds have loads of adv classes and NINETEEN crafting classes. Dragons only have 1 adv class and 2 crafting classes. Suggestions like mine would make things MORE balanced and not less IMO.

[Seranthor]

Yes young lad I'm very well aware of the number of biped crafting classes vs dragon crafting classes. I'm also well aware of which of my two toons I use to transport materials and here's a hint (its got big ol wings), knowing full wellthe difference in what he can carry vs what a biped can carry.

NEWS FLASH a biped in full ironsilk cargo gear carries less than an ancient in full combat scales. Dont Believe? run the numbers.

With regard to your posit that because dragons are physically bigger and have 'massive claws' they should be able to gather more? sure, perhaps in your fantasy world, you still have to have the skill to gather the material. I personally use my tarbash very wisely and am very capable of filling it with 100 construction units w/o using a silo of any kind. It is all about how you plan. But I applaud your desire to continue widen the effects of dragon affirmitive action, be my guest.

[JDavidC]

First off, don't call me 'young lad'. I'm not exactly young any more. :P Besides, even though you may be aware of the difference in classes available, it's part ofa point I was making. I never said you did not know about the difference.

BTW, what IS the difference between biped in all out cargo gear and an ancient? There should be a SIGNIFICANT difference between the two, not just a minor difference.

As for gathering more resources per 'dig', it should not be a fantasy world. I'll certainly agree you need the skill to be able to dig that much (and here's a nice twist, to be able to dig massive amounts, you need MUCH more skill than a biped would need for them to max out the yield they get).

When you say you use a tarbash to get 100 construction units, what toon is this on? If it's a dragon, I don't see how on earth you'd be able to do that without using the other cargo disk first in the intermediate stages.

[Seranthor]

no... an ancient in combat scales should NOT be able to carry more than a biped in full ironsilk... cause thats most definately unbalancing.

dragon + tarbash disk = 100 units w/o a silo or any other disks, just take some thought... :)

but thats all neither here nor there, its your contention that dragons need more attention, special disks, special dispensations and I just happen to be of the opposite opinion, I think they've been given more attention than they deserve as of late at the expense of many other things that have long been left unattended.

[JDavidC]

Well, ancients don't get cargo scales, and I honestly don't think that bipeds should be able to carry more than a HUGE dragon for goodness sake. There are many other things bipeds have going for them to balance certain strengths dragons should have compared to bipeds.

I honestly do not see how you're going to get 100 construction units on a tarbash without an EXCESSIVE amount of time spentmaking them with just your ancient's carrying capacity, and this applies to ALL tiers as well.

As for dev priorities, I'd rather see a client fix first and foremost. A fix to the confectioner class is sorely needed as it is badly broken right now. Also, some work on biped race/class quests should hopefully start shortly (from what I hear, there's a whole lot missing in this department).

[Seranthor]

ancient dragon in scales fit to fight any boss mob in the game- 5k carry capacity.
biped in full ironsilk cargo- 4760 carry capacity.

Tell me again who is sooooooo maligned in their ability to carry stuff?

[Dragoniade]

Thank you for the feedback on Dragon Lairshaping. Dragon storage chambers have already had their storage and construction requirements addressed and this is now working as intended. The cargo disk is something we're looking into to. Thanks again!

And the change was ridiculous. You need to review the footprint size for all Tier 2 and up silo, not just give it a tiny relative increase and lower the requirement, while keeping the GLOBAL storing the same.

Dragon are in need for better storage ASAP.
Dragon storage, as tiers goes up, are losing up to 5-13 time less storage capacity than a plot.
We need to store a LOT of stuff for our lairshaping. Yet, our silos take up to 6-9 more spaces to build while definitly not giving us 6-9 more storage spaces.

Tulga need to shrink down the silos, make them all 2x1 with the number of entrance alternating between tiers. If they need to increase the construction requirements, so be it.
I'll rather spend 2-3 more time building 1 silos that is going to give me 4 more storage capacity than building the same amount of storage capacity faster.

And Lairs needs other mean to store things other than Lair Room and Hall Room. I'll reuse the tent example. Dragons, like every other players, have a need for multiple scale sets, for instance. Tent were designed for easy storage of armors and weapon: 1000 bulks, 10 items.
Everybody can build tents fast, and store their basic items.

If a dragon want to stores their many scale sets (3-4 set for construction, 1-2 for combats), well, other than building a HUGE lair or hall that take weeks-months to build to get a mere 20 storages, have no alternative. Especially when you can only have 1 of each type, 2 if you decide to go agaisn't your faction.

Tulga need to introduce some sort of other mid storage, small sized structure for common usage. Lair and hall aren't suffisent for storage easy storage; storage room aren't suffisent for bulk storage. A plot can have tents, racial houses, houses, guild houses.

Give dragons a scales room, or a grotto room, dimensional pocket room. But please, address the storage issue seriously. It's not by multiplying the size of a room by 6 and increase the storage by 0.25 that you're going to help Lairshaper.

[Dragoniade]

ancient dragon in scales fit to fight any boss mob in the game- 5k carry capacity.
biped in full ironsilk cargo- 4760 carry capacity.

Are you considering the new capacity cristal in your calculation? Cristals that are out of reach of dragon too? If you aren't, well, you just beat an ancien Dragon capacity by 10.

[safaia]

Bipeds only ever need ONE type of raw resource to generate a construction unit. The only minor problem is that to complete a building, they need to switch between 4-5 classes.

The 'minor' problem is not to switch between classes, the 'minor' problem is to level 5 different classes up to the 80+

Lairshapers, on the other hand, have to deal with ALL construction units requiring AT LEAST 2 raw resources to create. Many require 3 raw resources and 1 type (which is one of the most commonly used) requires FOUR!

The problem with this is that having to deal with multiple types of resources means we CANNOT use a 1-stack only cargo disk effectively. It also means we need silos FAR more than bipeds do, and it's much more trouble to get silos up in a lair than it is to place and maky MANY biped siloson a grass field.

So where is the problem? My guild mate dragons use the silos of us bipeds. Bipeds help gather resources forthe dragonsconstruction resources. If you have friends there is no problem at all.

[Tantalyr]

The problem with this is that having to deal with multiple types of resources means we CANNOT use a 1-stack only cargo disk effectively. It also means we need silos FAR more than bipeds do, and it's much more trouble to get silos up in a lair than it is to place and maky MANY biped siloson a grass field.

Although I, too, have had my complaints about what I perceive to be the huge grind that is lairshaping (see the threads in the Dragon subforum), I have to take exception to these statements.

First off, my dragon ONLY uses his Tarbash disk, not the Deluxe disks that holds more items. If you think through where and how to gather the required resources and make the construction units most efficiently, then a Tarbash can and will be your best friend. For example, if you need Tier I tricut gems, go park your Tarbash at the gemcutter by the Mount Kion gem mine, quarry and make all the tricuts necessary to fill the disk, then drag it to either Kion or Parsinia to port out. For Tier II, park the disk at the gemcutter north of Slate Hills on Scorpion Isle. For Tier III, go to the gemcutter in the Aughundell mines. And for Tiers IV and V, I've found it easiest to just quarry all the gems I need first, haul those back to my lair and put them in silos, and make the tricuts at a nearby player gem shop.

And golly, I've found it MUCH easier to "get silos up in a lair than it is to place and make MANY biped silos on a grass field." Between level 0 and level 1 alone of my lair I have TEN Tier I storage chambers, more than ample to store resources. And on average it takes me around two hours (tops) to build a Tier I silo from scratch, much less than building even a Tier I biped silo which has less capacity.

[Adwene Blightstalker]

I have mid lvl biped construction worker, (I say mid lvl, lowest construction class is at 50, higest is at 85). Also a lvl 42 DLSH dragon. Unlike a lot of the dragons that make comments on these threads when I started my DLSH, I wasn't (and still aren't) 100 DCRA or ADV or ancient with the extra carry, I started as a25 ADV / 22 CRA hatchie and now are 31/70/42 adult.

I have found that lair shaping on the whole is a LOT more timeconsuming than plot work but if planned well with a good knowledge of available resources it is for the most viable to process all the resources upto and including t3 within a relatively short flight of each other. I fully believe part of the difficulty we are experiencing at present is the lack of dragon facilities close to the resource sites that are best suited to our use. Also potentially there community projects that are not complete yet that would make our lives easier. *thinks of the t4crystal lair near drift point*

I also think they should reduce the uncut gem requirements for Tricuts down to 1:1:1... but thats another story and probably a pipe dream!

Silos...

To me this is still a huge issue for dragons. The storage amount each takes is not the point, 'fixing' that was a bandaid solution. The problem to me is there is NO reason to build any silobigger than a t1 silo, because of the amount of space they take up in the lair. (I think have a couple of t2 silos but only because the spot under the silo wasa'dead' area anyway!) The T6 silos take up 9 spaces! I also agree with the above poster that said there is nothing in between a silo and a lair for storage like the tents that bipeds get.

This is my suggestion on how to alter lair silos in a way that is a compromise between what we have now and the '2 space silo' that was suggested above.

T1 silo - unchanged
T2 silo - T1 silo AND a+ intersection taking 2 lair blocks
T3 silo - longer T1 silos with a + intersection taking 3 lair blocks
T4 silo - a T2 silo that is 1 level deeper, taking 4 lair blocks
T5 silo -a T3 silo with the back 2 blocks going 1 lvl deeper, taking 5 lair blocks.
T6 silo - a T3 silo that is 1 lvl deeper, taking 6 lair blocks.

*Yes, from T2-T6 I am suggesting we include the corridor into the silo design, I'm fully aware this will have pluses and minuses. Space wise, these suggestions would save3-4spaces on a t6 silo, butonly 0-1on a t2 silo, factoring in the changes to the corridor. They would also bemore friendly as to which directly you can place them in a lair.

The graphics for these changes are mostly in the game, so no major artistic work would be needed (I would be happy to give more details on how I would implement that aspect). Each tier takes up more room, BUT includes in it the corridor, which potentially saves the builder some extra space. The corridors would also allow a natural 'chaining' effect of silos which currently is very cumbersome and completely impossiable for the highest tier silos. An increase in the amount of resources needed for theT2 and higher would be expected... as they now include the corridor, possiably a doubling of the lower tiered amount across the board?

As to the suggestion for 'tents' I would thing that the layouts of the current libraries are a greatbase in which to expand on the tent suggestion. Theytake 2 silo spaces currently and higher teirs just add more outlets, scales unlike biped armor are ALL 20 bulk, so I see no reason why a T2 scale storage can't be 10 items with 400 bulk, T4 20/800 and a T6 30/1200, with similar requirements to the silos for building. It would add variety but as the templates are already in place would require minimal art work and implementation time.

Apologies for the spelling/grammar :)

[JDavidC]

Riiiggghtt... well first....

Even without a capacity crystal, a biped being able to carry almost as much as an ancient is just plain WRONG IMO.

As for levelling up 5 construction classes all the way to say, 100... I'd have no trouble with that. I still don't need silos desperately to store intermediate resources, and I can just use a Tarbash for carting around construction units.

Regarding guildies working together... Many dragons do not want to be forced to rely on bipeds (some dragons may not mind working side-by-side with bipeds, but that's another issue), i.e. the storage THEY build should be adequate for what they do. Also, if you want someone to gather resources for you, you'll probably still have to do something for them.

As for only using a tarbash for tricut gems.... No way! I use the disk as storage for the intermediate products as well. It would take me A-G-E-S to create tricuts if I only used my backpack (about 2k free). I personally find it better to make as many as my backpack can carry, then port to wherever I need to.

Getting silos up in a lair more easily than to make biped ones? It would take me MUCH longer than 2 hours to make one (bear in mind I'm nowhere near lvl 100 in any class). At least with biped silos you don't have all this intermediate resource hassle. You'll forgive me if I find this statement a bit hard to believe, because I don't see how it'd be easier.

[Tantalyr]

JDavidC, Tier I silos are just that--Tier I. They require only Tier I resources (dim essence and orbs, sandstone and bronze). You only have to have around level 20 dragoncrafting and lairshaping and they're a breeze to put up. I popped another Tier I silo Sunday, and I timed myself from scratch (chamber at 0% and no resources or units preassembled). Took me precisely 1 hour and 49 minutes to gather all resources, make all units, and apply them. *shrugs*

[Seranthor]

You dont have to 'see' it... try it yourself... FACT a t6 biped silo takes 1100 construction resources... FACT a T6 dragon silo takes 144, yes, 144 its NOT a typo. Try building one of each and see how long it takes you. Dont rely on the information you disbelieve, try it yourself.

[JDavidC]

Tier 1 silos also require tricut gems and crystals as part of intermediate resources in rather large quantities, two things bipeds NEVER have to worry about. What levelsdoyour dragon have?

As for 144 construction units for dragons vs 1100 units for bipeds. I'd need to see a table of biped construction units required, along with the amount of resources needed to make each construction unit. Something tells me biped construction units are still MUCH easier to make, while dragon construction units require far more resources per unit. Also, there is the fact that bipeds can build silos up to the sky without having to worry about footprint. Dragons, on the other hand, have to work in a 3D setting as far as constraints are concerned when it comes to their silos. I'd rather have a 1100 unit t6biped silo that can reach to the moon than a 144 unit t6 dragon silo that takes up way too much space in a lair for too little benefit. Also, dragons, due to their jack of all trades crafting class, master of none, have MAJOR trouble with t6 resources. Also, the lack of transmutation formulas for tricuts and azulyte crystals make constructing certain dragon construction units even more difficult.

Before you go dragons requiring 1/9 of the construction units is bad, look at the other things I mentioned. Also, if some dragon that could post up a table of dragon construction units, that would make an accurate comparison easier.

[Seranthor]

JDavidC,

I'm so sorry your having such a horrible time with your lairshaping I can state from my experience as a 100 lairshaper that its EASIER to build a dragon structure with ONE school than it is to build a biped structure that requires 5 schools. As far as that t6 silo comparasion... a biped t6 requires 150 units of adamantium sheeting alone, more than the 144 total units of everything combined that a dragon t6 requires. What 'trouble's do you refer to in their jack-of-all trades?... the fact that the only crafters that can get 2:1 on t6 are dragons with tricuts and azulyte, looks like 'trouble' to me... *snicker*. Get to 100, build a t4 or t5 dragon hall from scratch and then come back and try and speak from 'experience'. Folks that are busy howling about the 'pain' of lairshaping HAVENT got the experience to back up their claims whereas those that HAVE the experience are stating their opinion based on their actual in game experiences. Personally, when I want opinions I go to folks that HAVE done what I'm asking about/concerned about and get my information from them instead of someone that has no idea but waht they hear 2nd, 3rd, 4th hand or what they made up from some sense of flawed perception.

[JDavidC]

First, as for construction being long and hard work... that I do not have a problem with, but making the work an absurd grind for different materials which have to be stored before being processed without adequate storage is where things are annoying me. There's a difference between a long grind, and a long, tedious, painful grind.

As for the last post...
What troubles do I refer to? Bipeds can become MASTERS of all crafts, but dragons cannot become quite as good as bipeds at processing t6 resources. i.e. bipeds would have MORE skill points for processing resources, hence they would have an easier time with processing t6 resources for construction. Where are you getting this information that only dragons can get 2:1 on t6 resources? Surely that's bipeds you're talking about. Please check your facts, because that statement sounds like complete baloney. Also, tricuts and azulytes are NOT EVEN NEEDED by bipeds. Plus t6 dragon only resources AREN'T EVEN IN THE GAME AS NODES, only as bonus resources or transmutation. Suddenly, the effort required to make certain construction units ends up getting multiplied by 10 or 20 based on how much t5 stuff you have to transmute to t6. Still think 144 units of construction on t6 dragon storage chambers are unfair? I'd take a biped silo which doesn't have such insane footprint requirements any day. Stop thinking about just the difficulty of construction please.

One more thing, Seranthor, cut that attitude you have out. If you can't write posts on a forum without being condescending, then switch to PMs or just stop posting altogether.