Feedback about school: Dragon Lairshaping

[Seranthor]

2:1 on t6 azulyte?... been there, done that AS a dragon,think I'm wrong ask around to the clearly more knowledgable dragons on your shard or click here

Lets talk about checking facts, T6 Azulyte and T6 tricuts are made from bonus only, no chance at transmute, yet.Do I think 144 units are unfair?.. your d*mn right I do. Becausethat 1100 is ofis mostly t6 material (read transmute) just like your precious 144 units of dragon silo construction.

But the facts remain uncontroverted, you think DLSH is too painful and would rather howl about it, I think its about right and I'm busier than a beaver building my lair. You have your opinion, I have mine, mine is backed up with facts, yours is backed up with misinformation.

Dont like my tone? deal with it and/or ignore me. I'm complying with all the forums rules. Think I'm not, then report me.

[Adwene Blightstalker]

Seriously... there is no point comparing biped and dragon construction its apples and pairs from start to finsh.

One important factor everyone here seems to miss on biped construction is the fact you can TRADE, you don't have to level every single class to 100 (heaven forbid!). Why would anyone trade dragonshaping except maybe for skillups?

The most common biped silo would be the t2 silo, followed by the t4 from what i have seen. Lots of t4 ones remain unbuilt. With the current silo layouts for lairs there is NO reason to build anything beyond the t1 silo - they just take up too much space.

Another thing... you guys that are able to do the t1 silos in under 2hours HAVE to be ancients WITH alacrity 5 buff! there is no way known I could do it in that time, I'd be lucky to get just the lattice done. Yes i'm well past optimal on them. Not everyone is an ancient with 5k carry! Some of us may never get to ancient. Without that extra carry it can take 3 more trips to different resources for 1 load of units BECAUSE dragon stuff takes so many, when you make these comments think about the new starters not just yourselves.

[Seranthor]

I'm not ancient either Adwene, that said my dragon still is my resource mover despite the fact my biped can carry more. I AM thinking about dragonkin, once you start on the slippery slope of repeatedly stroking one class/race to the detriment of others then the others become resentful and rightfully so. Dragons have had it good, very very good for more than the past year of development while others races/classes remain utterly ignored. Now, the dragonkin appear to be insatiable, its time to return to attempt to bring parity to the races/classes instead of continually gifting one race/class that now appears to be oblivious of what they have.

[Dragoniade]

You dont have to 'see' it... try it yourself... FACT a t6 biped silo takes 1100 construction resources... FACT a T6 dragon silo takes 144, yes, 144 its NOT a typo. Try building one of each and see how long it takes you. Dont rely on the information you disbelieve, try it yourself.

1100 Vs 144? Big deal. Contrarely to what you imply, a plot silo isn't 10 time the work of a lair storage room. Yet *again* you forget HALF the number. Let me refresh your memory.

Tier 6 Storage
Name
Qte(A)
Finished Res. (B)
Ore, etc (C)
Total (A*B*C*2)
Imbued Adamantium Bar
21
15
5
3150
Imbued Mithril Bar
2115
5
3150
Violet Crystaline Lattice
2120
8
6720
Crimson Crystaline Lattice
21208
6720
Perfect Maelstone
7
208
2240
Flawless Maelstone
7208
2240
Perfect Flowstone
7208
2240
Flawless Flowstone
7208
2240
Primal Essence of Amalgam
715
4
840
Primal Essence of Mergence
7154
840
Volative Exoriation of Earth
14
154
1680
Fervid Exoriation of Earth
14
154
1680
Total:
154


33740

Tier 6 Silo
NameQte(A)Finished Res. (B)Ore, etc (C)Total (A*B*C*2)Adamantium Construction Jointing
150
20
3
18000
Adamantium Construction Sheeting
90
15
3
8100
Mithril Construction Jointing
125
20
3
15000
Mithril Construction Sheeting
75
15
3
6750
Yew Construction Timber
50
15
2
3000
Yew Construction Braces
50
20
2
4000
Thornwood Construction Timber
60
15
2
3600
Thornwood Construction Braces
60
20
2
4800
Marble Construction Block
125
15
2
7500
Marble Construction Keystone
75
20
2
6000
Travertine Construction Block
150
15
2
9000
Travertine Construction Keystone
95
20
2
7600
Total
1105


93350

1105 Vs 154. And 93350 ores Vs 33740
Definitly not 10 time the work. More likely like 3 times less works for a little less than 9 times the storage. And it's even less as Tiered plot Silo lower in Tiers.

So sorry, but yes, Plot silos require more ressources to build, but the difference is far from to be worth 9 times the storages.

And even less the lack of storage option at all.

Add a 'storage' coridors where a dragon can 'hangs' his scale for display. That would acts as a storage AND decorations (which dragon also lack of).

[Dragoniade]

tents are old school. They'll be removed eventually when all racial buildings are ingame (eventually....................................... ..... hehehehehehe).

Personally the only issue with dragon storage that I see is the incredibly large amount of space (relative to lair/plot size) that dragon silos take up. However, this is probably a moot point. The art assets are ingame, and give the shortage of artist time, it is unlikely new models will ever be introduced. IMO none of the silos should have been bigger than a tier II silo.

That's not really an issue really. Look how long it took to make the new spirals: about a month. The smaller silos are already in place. Just take an existing 2 units silos, add an extra entrance, and voilÃ**. You got a new silo. That's what they did with the 90 degrees spirals.

They can rename them if they want to keep the older like so that people like Ser won't raise their voice agains't those wanting proper silos.

[Seranthor]

forget HALF the number.

Half of what number?

Let me refresh your memory.

Please do. While your at it remind me of the bulk capacity of each. Additionally, your numbers are flawed, your Imb mith bars can be made with4, not 5.Also, I also await your display of someone doing travertine bricks or thornwood at optimal. So before you try and flaunt flawed numbers you might wanna check them, then come back. Lets see the real numbers, not the ones youcooked.

[Dragoniade]

Please do. While your at it remind me of the bulk capacity of each. Additionally, your numbers are flawed, your Imb mith bars can be made with4, not 5.Also, I also await your display of someone doing travertine bricks or thornwood at optimal. So before you try and flaunt flawed numbers you might wanna check them, then come back. Lets see the real numbers, not the ones youcooked.

1 Mithril Bar: 2 Mitril Ore & 1 Platinum Ore = 3
1 Essence Orb = 2 Bright Essence
3 + 2 = 5

And yes, I used optimal because they are easier to calculate. If you want your number, then just do it yourself with your skills level. Anyway, Dragon AND biped cannot reach optimal so the difference between both still stand. And even there, dragon will require MORE ressource because, contrarely to a biped that can get 11-10 points per level by choosing the right school, a dragon will be locked at the mere 7-8 points per level.

I suggest you learn to count and actually back-up your claim before calling my number s flawed. Stop thinking about yourself and only to your levels, and start thinking about the other players too.

[Seranthor]

Ah yes, lets make up numbers like you just freely admitted. you know full well that if you had to use the actual numbers that your comparison would be even more tilted away from your intented posit. The facts remain uncontroverted, you want smaller footprints, you want lower resource requirement and you'd be more than happy to keep the current bulk. And it appears that your intent on throwingtantrum after tantrum until someone in power actually listens to you and caves to your flawed illogical whinings. Even with your cooked numbers that particular structure takes markedly more resources and thusfar you've failed miserably to dilute that fact. If you spent 1/2 the time actually building your lair instead of trying to twist numbers and trying to garner undeserved sympathy for your perceived plight you might actually learn something about your supposed craft. If you've succeeded in anything you've succeeded in proving to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the resources for building dragon structures need to be increased to match similar biped structures. Then you can have all your 'tents' and anything else you can dream up to try and fill the void that you perceive. Now, while you continue todemonstrate many of the traits that people find reprehensible and indefensible about dragons I'm going to go do something for the community and finish another dragon chamber so that people can use it.

[JDavidC]

Seranthor, even if you're right on certain issues, people are not going to care or listen to you with the way you act. I did warn you NOT to use a condescending tone, yet you continue to do so. There's no need to rub your facts in someone else's face like a wet sponge. Don't you DARE rubbish other people in the forum, and their facts like that, particularly if you refuse to acknowledge other parts where they're right (not once did I see you refer to the footprint difference, that is a key point of my argument).

As for dragons being the only ones able to get 2:1 on t6 resources... that only applies to resources only they need! For the other resources they ALSO need, they're WORSE off.

Dragoniade, thank you for posting those tables, and for backing up some points I made (e.g. the master of all crafts getting more points per leveldue to all the different craft schools). Seranthor, guess why I wanted those tables? Answer: So I could have some nice facts and figures to make judgments from. Also, one thing the tables do NOT show is the fact that bipeds only need 1 type of raw resource for each construction unit. Dragons need 2-4, so that FURTHER increases the effort and difficulty.The whole point of the original post is to address the difficultythat applies only to dragons, difficulties they should not have being massive creatures.

I think a table of my own is in order as well:

Resource Name Step 2 resources Step 1 resources Step 0 resources Imbued metal bar 15metal bars
15essence orbs 30metal ore units
30 raw essence Primal Essence 15 focused azulyte crystals
15 essence orbs 30unfocused azulyte crystals
30 raw essence units Excoriation of Earth 15 metal bars
15 stone bricks 30 metal ore units
30 stone slabs Cast stone 2stone bricks
2raw essence 4stone slabs
2raw essence Lodestone 2 metal bars
2 stone slabs 4 metal ore units
2 stone slabs Tricut gem 2 uncut A gems
2 uncut B gems
2 uncut C gems Flowstone 20 cast stones
20 bronze bars 20 bronze bars
40 stone bricks
40 raw essence 40 metal ore units
80 stone slabs
40 raw essence Maelstone 20 lodestones
20 essence orbs 40 metal bars
40 stone slabs
20 essence orbs 80 metal ore units
40 stone slabs
40 raw essence Crystalline Lattice 20 focused azulyte crystals
20 tricut gems 40 unfocused azulyte crystals
40 uncut A gems
40 uncut B gems
40 uncut C gems





































The 'steps' indicate the amount of resource you need to have at each point to get to the end product. Step 2 is only used when there are intermediate resources that also appear as rows in the table.
As you can see, the 'simple' emboldened finished construction resources require 60 raw resource units from 2 types of raw resource each. The more difficult ones require a whopping 160 raw resources each. Two of them require THREE difference types of raw resource, and one requires FOUR.

For all the 'simple' biped construction resources, it's simply 15 of ONE processed raw resource, for a total of 30 raw resource units. For all of the (not much) harder ones it's 20 and 40 instead of 15 and 30 respectively. To get the raw resources for units, we'll just double up.

Let's compare, shall we?

Simple biped construction unit - 60 raw resource units (1 type)vs 120 for dragons (2 types). Twice the raw units AND twice as many.
Harder construction unit - 80 raw units (1 type) vs 320 for dragons (3-4 types).
FOUR times the raw units and 3-4 times as many, plus the ones that require 3 raw unit types also require intermediate resources that also need storage somewhere for large scale construction.

Bipeds have a total of 555 'hard' units and 550 'easy' units, for a total of 1105 units.
Dragons have a total of 70 'hard' units and 84 'easy' units, for a total of 154 units.

Now let's convert the dragon's units to biped units (double for easy ones, 4 times for hard ones.

Dragons require 280 'hard' biped units and 168 'easy' biped units, for a total of 448 biped units.

For the hard units, bipeds require about twice as much work in terms of raw resources, for the easy ones, it's about 3 times. In total, something around 2.5 times (not 9-10 times!), but this does not tell the WHOLE story.

You must ALSO bear in mind that even 'easy' units for dragons are still somewhat nasty for dragons, let alone the nightmare that is hard units (raw, single-processed AND double processed units along the way), while bipeds get easy mode on BOTH types of unit (i.e. just 1 raw resource type, 1 single processed unit type along the way). Finally, dragons have to pay the price in *MUCH* larger footprint requirements. Compare the dimensions of a biped silo to a storage chamber (even T1, let alone the higher tiers... I'd hate to see the footprint of a t6 storage chamber O_O). A silo takes up a tiny fraction of the space that a storage chamber takes up (and you don't even need to take the biped silo's height into account!). Dragon storage chambers are borked with those footprint requirements, and many dragons will just use T1 for that reason. Furthermore, with dragon storage chambers, you need to build CORRIDORS to connect to them. i.e. YOU NEED MORE THAN 1 TYPE OF BUILDING TO ACCESS WHAT YOU STORE IN LAIRS. Suddenly the work for dragons to get their silos in goes up a LOT more with more structures to build using all types of dragon construction unit, while bipeds don't have to worry about this at all.

Seranthor, biped silos may require about 2.5 times the amount of raw resources (or less than that if you include corridors need to access the silos in the first place), but you get INSANELY superior footprint, access advantages (double click the silo from anywherenearby easily), you do NOT need to build connection structures (i.e. corridors), and ALL of the construction units require 1 raw resource type each (hence less running around the world to get at these resources).These are thingsdragons would kill for. I don't know about other dragons, but IMO biped silos WTFPWN dragon storage chambers by a long shot.

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

Bipeds may only need 1 resource but they also don't get the convenience of leveling a SINGLE SCHOOL to do ALL of their construction.


I swear this entire thread is like people refusing to look at your trade offs.

[JDavidC]

Yet I said I'd be happy levelling 5 construction schools for building biped stuff as opposed to 1 for dragon stuff. The time spent not being optimal isn't that long at a tier. By the time you're finished with some buildings/chambers at a tier, you'll have levelled up enough in all the required schools to move on to the next tier. It's a trade off I'm quite willing to take.

That comment about people refusing to look at trade offs throughout the thread is false I'm afraid (read: it does not apply to all people who posted). How else can I explain the difference between biped and dragon storage silo/chamber construction units?

Finally, when comparing t6 storage... I put down figures assuming both dragons AND bipeds were OPTIMAL at all stages... dragons may be even less optimal than bipeds. Bipeds can get as far as 3:1 on some units, and dragons get between 2:1 (for dragon ONLY resources) all the way to 5:1 (the guild master in my guild is 5:1 on essence orbs, and has a grand hall, so I'll take her word for those difficulties). Let's assume bipeds are 3:1 on t6 resources on average, and dragons 4:1 (because bipeds get more skill pointsas Dragoniade pointed out). Half of the units require t5 and t6.

So.... bipeds get raw resources needed multiplied by roughly 1.5 on half of the easy and hard units, but dragons get them multiplied by 2. With 1.5 times the effort for half, and 1 for the other half, that's (1.5 + 1)/2 = 1.25 times the total effortcompared to optimal, putting them up to 1381.25 units' worth of raw resources for those that are optimal.

For dragons, it's (2 + 1)/3 = 1.5 times their total, putting them up to 672 'optimal biped units'. Still not counting the additional work for access structures, bipeds still only have about twice (probably less) the amount of raw resources needed, yet they still have all these other advantages.

[Eni]

Carfull. For t6 Biped need to level 7 schools .Without miner/gatherer biped builders are worse at resource crafting than Dragons. And as Dragons get higher xp in all crafts (xp goes for base skill and dragons get points from quests) it is a real difference.
Why you want to have one dragon school to be better than 7 biped schools all together? There is the problem in my opinion. It is always (or most time) asked to have all dragons be able to do everything some bipeds could be able to do some time.
Dragons problem is that they are stuck with their current school.Problem are not the current schools. They need something additional to be able to improve further, not an improvment of current schools.

[JDavidC]

Eni... I wouldn't have a problem with miner/gatherer as well, especially as I could use the God Disk for carting resources around (not to mention all these craft schools will probably come in handy for adventuring too). I could level a gathering/mining class whileprocessing the resources to their firstrefined form, then switch to the construction school for the processed resources to make the 120 bulk construction resources andapply those.

Dragons get a jack of all trades crafting class, but they are unable to specialise. Dragons need easier methods for carting around and storing multiple resource types put in (read: flying multi-stack cargo disks and multi-stack storage chambers). That isn't necessarily a change to the lairshaping class itself, but it would end a lot of the problems associated with lairshaping.

Later on they'll need additional schools so this 'Jack of all trades master of nothing' thing can stop (which sounds much better than 1 school being better than 7, which is also something I do not want... I want dragon to be put on a more level playing field when it comes to construction time compared to bipeds). Also, I'd like to see a jack of all trades craft class added to bipeds for those that want to do a lot of things somewhat effectively. That reminds me, dragon crafters still need their stoneworking/smelting quests put in to help get them closer to what bipeds can do.

[AA0]

Have you even tried to level 7 craft schools, and soloely off resources like miner/gatherer? It is incredibly boring and slow, and the amount of time levelling is very signicant unless you already have other schools to help you... which means you are levelling 8 or 9 schools. It is not easy as you think, instead of just talking endlessly, why don't you do it a bit and see? When you are just done it ... like a week, right? then come back

[Dragoniade]

Ah yes, lets make up numbers like you just freely admitted. you know full well that if you had to use the actual numbers that your comparison would be even more tilted away from your intented posit. The facts remain uncontroverted, you want smaller footprints, you want lower resource requirement and you'd be more than happy to keep the current bulk. And it appears that your intent on throwingtantrum after tantrum until someone in power actually listens to you and caves to your flawed illogical whinings. Even with your cooked numbers that particular structure takes markedly more resources and thusfar you've failed miserably to dilute that fact. If you spent 1/2 the time actually building your lair instead of trying to twist numbers and trying to garner undeserved sympathy for your perceived plight you might actually learn something about your supposed craft. If you've succeeded in anything you've succeeded in proving to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the resources for building dragon structures need to be increased to match similar biped structures. Then you can have all your 'tents' and anything else you can dream up to try and fill the void that you perceive. Now, while you continue todemonstrate many of the traits that people find reprehensible and indefensible about dragons I'm going to go do something for the community and finish another dragon chamber so that people can use it.

How shallow can you be? I won't bother explaining AGAIN with that it won't matter if the number are at optimal or NOT because the relative number ARE STILL THE SAME. Time you get your head out of your posterior and see the light, rather than continiously grin levels after levels.

And guess what, I'm not wasting time when I'm typing those data, and wait for my dragon to dig out 3'000 uncut gems. So stop those lame excuse and start to actualy learn to play.
The proof that some people just grin level and shows they don't know how to play. Selfish players who try to pardon themselves by building 1-2 houses on a friend plot. Sorry, you fail to get my pity.

[Deth]

Eni... I wouldn't have a problem with miner/gatherer as well, especially as I could use the God Disk for carting resources around (not to mention all these craft schools will probably come in handy for adventuring too). I could level a gathering/mining class whileprocessing the resources to their firstrefined form, then switch to the construction school for the processed resources to make the 120 bulk construction resources andapply those.

So you would not mind running to a Trainer. Porting to resources. Gather and making bars. Drag the disk to a processing area. Porting back to a new trainer. (I think this would happen not sure as I do not have a biped) Change to a new class and not be able to equip the disk again because you no longer meet the class requirements. process construction items and hand carry them to your plot because you can now no longer use your "god" disk? Instead of a dragon. Then my friend I think your playing the wrong class.

Because yes there are more trainers for Biped construction classes but still their is not going to be one within easy reach of all tier of resources.

[Dragoniade]

Carfull. For t6 Biped need to level 7 schools .Without miner/gatherer biped builders are worse at resource crafting than Dragons. And as Dragons get higher xp in all crafts (xp goes for base skill and dragons get points from quests) it is a real difference.
Why you want to have one dragon school to be better than 7 biped schools all together? There is the problem in my opinion. It is always (or most time) asked to have all dragons be able to do everything some bipeds could be able to do some time.
Dragons problem is that they are stuck with their current school.Problem are not the current schools. They need something additional to be able to improve further, not an improvment of current schools.

It depend for what though. In the case of silo, only 3 schools is required, 5 if you want to level mining/gathering. And even there, the 3 basics schools for constructions still get more points per level than a dragon in gathering/processing.

A biped may take more time leveling; a dragon will take more time applying. *Until* Tulga decide to apply the 'Big Xp on final product' rules to all bipeds schools. Biped schools then will be even easier to level, since they can mass apply anything to any reachable building. Until then, dragon crafter are closer to miner /gatherer/tinkerer than a contruction class experience wise.

[Seranthor]

Have it your way, your incapable of thinking carefully or planning carefully. So instead you fill the boards with 'Oh abused me, pity me, boo hoo'. It's rubbish like this that makes folks despise dragons, even other dragons. Whine and cry all you want, [:'(][:'(] it serves you well.

Snow: of course they dont want to compute the extra work involved in leveling all those other classes, they never do, they just want to assume that bipeds have those skills. and sadly the only facts that matter to them are the ones they make up. Let them have their way, because if they manage to succeed with their tears, their catterwalling and howling they still wont be satisfied they'll just look to something else to boohoo about. And those that are building will be the true benefactors of their tears, not them.

[AA0]

Tulga has messed up big time with buildings for plots. Not only do silos require nothing from enchanters/weavers, neither do practically any other buildings, as the jman shops all use t6/4 or t4/2. The only thing that actually uses those odd tier items are silos and houses. Houses you can't fit many onto plots at high tiers, they are beyond massive and hold very little.

Until TG fixes plot building requirements, they can not make the primary system work for construction schools.

[LaughingOtter]

Eni... I wouldn't have a problem with miner/gatherer as well, especially as I could use the God Disk for carting resources around (not to mention all these craft schools will probably come in handy for adventuring too). I could level a gathering/mining class whileprocessing the resources to their firstrefined form, then switch to the construction school for the processed resources to make the 120 bulk construction resources andapply those.

The "God Disk" is a lot less useful than you imagine it is. Since it cannot port, it is useless without a storage structure of some kind within reasonable walking distance. Further, as soon as you change classes, you lose the ability to use that disk. For biped construction, the Tarbash is the only disk to use. So, arguments based on the idea that the deluxe Standish is some kind of 'I win' button are seriously flawed.