What Would You Think of Non-Consensual PvP on the Frontier?

[Tantalyr]

As I noted in Arena thread in General, a short discussion of PvP arose today in IRC, and the following is a snippet of that dialogue:

13:22] <Samael> I think it would be cool to play the aegis. kind of like a werewolf, you can transform into undead for a time [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img] would be fun to be a knight of destruction or an undead dragon
[13:22] <David-RememberTuesIsPatchDay> that's what the Fall Festival is for
[13:22] <Samael> There is your dynamic Aegis [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-5.gif[/img]
[13:22] <Flsssssh> Get a bunch of costumes next time Samael
[13:23] <Seranthor> I want to be a welgar.
[13:23] <Samael> I did. I mean for real.
[13:23] <Kepesk> Yeah. pvp isn't for me either. Mostle because it's rarely handled as a part of roleplay. It usually ends up being a game of killing players for the sake of killing players.
[13:23] <Valtur|Office> Yes, agree with Samael, having their skills would be fun for a change.
[13:23] <Flsssssh> Now what would be cool is if WA couldn't "see" through the costumes....
[13:23] * harves has left #horizons
[13:23] * harves has joined #horizons
[13:23] <Samael> make them weaker than the gifted so that they are a challenge to play. just would be fun to raid towns even if we get wiped out
[13:24] <AA0> that would be a neat idea.. but there would be idiots that prey on the weak then
[13:24] <Valtur|Office> Kepesk, if done right, can be great competition/fun.
[13:24] <Samael> make it so they can only attack stuff their level or higher.
[13:24] <Flsssssh> Dress up as a ghost or zombie and go wander around with the WA. They think you one of them...
[13:25] <Kepesk> I've never seen it done right. Maybe I haven't played the right games, but I've never seen it handled in a fun way.
[13:25] <Samael> You would do it for fun, knowing full well you would get yer butt handed to ya.
[13:25] <Samael> take control of a town and wait to be slaughtered
[13:25] <AA0> the only way really is with world masters, or other types doing it... they need to have some kinda responsibility
[13:26] <Flsssssh> responsibility? in a game?
[13:26] <AA0> to take a character and go off raiding newbie islands, etc... it would happen
[13:26] <Peaches> they could do that in daoc, but it rarely happened
[13:26] <Samael> make it so they cant port to newbie islands
[13:27] <Samael> or attack people below their level.
[13:27] <AA0> heh, how many exceptions can you make?
[13:27] <Peaches> I dont have a problem with consentual pvp, I dont like unconsentual pvp
[13:27] <Flsssssh> I avoid responsibility in real life....
[13:27] <Peaches> heh
[13:27] <Samael> think of it as dynamic aegis [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]
[13:27] <David-RememberTuesIsPatchDay> if it were ever to be done (and I'm not recommending it) I'd do it in the frontier and eastern blight
[13:27] <Valtur|Office> Agreed Peaches.
[13:27] <Flsssssh> Isn't the age of consent different in some states?
[13:28] <Peaches> unconsentual David?
[13:28] <Baela-TG> Just for the record AA0: My ETAs have been perfect for months now when I give them. So NYAH! and /taunt at you! =p
[13:28] <Samael> limit to Eastern blight would be nice. have them take damage like drowning if they are outside of blight.
[13:28] <AA0> I will dispute that [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]
[13:28] <Baela-TG> Dispute all you like! I still /taunt in your general direction!
[13:28] <Peaches> I truly wouldnt want to see unconsentual pvp in horizons, but that prob is just me
[13:28] <Samael> but give the blighters something to defend, like an aegis camp
[13:29] * AA0 ignores taunts
[13:29] * PJ would rather just have actual dynamic blight
[13:29] <Flsssssh> No, I agree with unconsentual PVP. That breeds PKs
[13:29] <Flsssssh> as opposed to PJs
[13:29] <AA0> I think its a good/fun idea samael, but the control is what is critical
[13:29] <Kyrieath> open pvp is horrible. imagine if you were out crafting and someone decided to be a real prize winner and PK you while you have crafting gear on?

Consider David's bolded response here. In short, he said that though he is not recommending it, if non-consensual PvP were implemented in Horizons David would do it "on the frontier and the eastern blight." Soooooo . . . . . . though he is presently not "recommending" the implementation of non-consensual PvP, Tulga's CEO is already pondering the possibility of where it would be "restricted"--the "frontier" and the Eastern Blight.

What's the "frontier?" My guess would be anything east of Aughundell for sure, and perhaps west of Tazoon. Old Oaks. Wolf's Paw. Morning Light. Harro.

Want to go out to Wolf's Paw and mine some mithril or platinum? Keep looking over your shoulder and have your weapon or blade handy. Want to spend a pleasant evening with your mates hunting General Reklar or SoG in the Eastern Deadlands? You have to hope that a group of PvP'ers doesn't crash your party and lend their blades and spells to SoG's defense.

I really, really hope that David drops any and all notions of ever implementing non-consensual PvP on the "frontier" and/or Eastern Blight (or anywhere else in Istaria for that matter).

Because the day non-consensual PvP is implemented in Istaria is the day I must bid adieu to the wonderful folks I've met in Horizons and move on.

[LaughingOtter]

To any suggestion of players controlling NPCs, WA forces, or anything like that, I will remind the management and design team of the Darkstaff debacle.

I don't have a problem with a live person directing a WA assault, even as one of the senior WA commanders - so long as that person is an employee of Tulga games who can be held to account for their actions.

Players should not - EVER!!!!!! - have that option.

[Varangaard]

Frontier is defined, I belive, as the area east of Aughundell. Harro and Morning Light are firmly inside the Frontier.

Reading through the the exchange, it is not clear if David is speaking of consentual or nonconsentual PvP in his reply. Peaches asks for clarification soon after, but we don't see the answer here. Also note that the overall theme is Aegis vs Living as PvP battle. Before the subject of debate would be even possible to implement, TG would need to bring undead races and classes as playables... which is not an overnight job as they presently work based on different logic than player characters.

But you asked for an opinion. Mine would be, maybe in Horizons 2, maybe in Horizons the PvP edition. I have no interest in seeing alliance vs horde here.

[AA0]

The whole things reminds me of the darkstaff, which is why I said there would need to be serious controls and responsibilities....

I'm all for the idea, as long as the ones that get to do it are the right people. It just wouldn't be worth the time having the devs do it really.

[Death-knell]

Nope, wouldn't like it. And if it were done badly would probably cancel my subscription. Don't want PVP. Keep it in the arena if it has to be in this world.

[Deth]

I would not want it either and I want want a lair of the same size with all my work that was done at the time given to me somewhere else as I brought where I am with no PvP in my thoughts. Also the same should be done for all the others that would want it if they ever did add PvP to those area. Mob invasions I can deal with player invasions I do not want.

[Guaran]

Non-consentual pvp? thats a stupid question.

The game, the classes, nothing was developed with that in mind. Which is why dev's originally stated there wouldn't be PVP in horizons. For the most part that statement is still true, because the arena pvp we have is very limited and nothing at all like all other games that have pvp. It was only allowed to be implemented because of the fact that it's severely limited. And no Seranthor or anyone else who wants to argue semantics I can't really consider the arena pvp anything resembling the pvp that the term, "PVP" stands for in peoples minds. So the original statements that we would never have pvp are in spirit still true IMHO.

Should there be non-consentual pvp: NO.

[FleshRoast]

I am *NOT* in favor of non-consenual PVP any time, any where.

[Tantalyr]

Let's be clear here about what David was referring to when he made the statement "If it were ever to be done (and I'm not recommending it) I'd do it in the frontier and eastern blight."

He plainly is not referring to implementation of a system where WM's (or other developers) could spawn and control Withered Aegis beasties in attacks on players. That system is, and has been since launch, already in place. World Masters have always had the ability to spawn mobs (hence the occasional town raids we have), as well as the ability to assume control of a particular mob (the original World Master on Dawn, Shetani, used to spawn and control a "Salt Rock Golem" that would attack players). Since that system has always been in place, it would make no sense for David to say that he is "not recommending it."

Rather, David was responding to a suggestion by Samael to permit players to play some Withered Aegis beastie and attack other biped/dragon players. That, of course, would simply be thinly-disguised (at best) non-consensual PvP. And THAT is what David was referring to in his response--the implementation of some system of non-consensual PvP.

So after reading this dialog from IRC, I made this post simply to determine whether the Horizons player base does or does not want any form, any system, of non-consensual PvP. If the majority of players do not want this or any other system of non-consensual PvP then fine--this is the place to (hopefully) nip any notion of it in the bud. On the other hand, if the majority of players DO want this or some other system of non-consensual PvP implemented then fine, too--I'll simply move on and never look back.

[Sigi1985]

NO!!! I definately don't want any PvP. Now there's the arena thingy and it seems like when you give a finger they want to take the whole hand. Stop asking for PvP! If you want it move on to the majority of other games where they allready use it.

[Goriax]

He said he wouldn't recommend it. Seeing as how he's the boss any recommendations he makes are probably the final word. You can't read too much into off the cuff comments from a dev in some place like that. Would you want someone dissecting every word you mention in idle chat?If he thought it through and posted the same thing to a thread on these boards I'd give it more weight and I'd be a lot more concerned.

If players were allowed to play WA we'd have major griefing immediately. Sure, he says make them weaker then other players but players of what level? If your level 100 zombie is even worth fighting for a level 100 playerit wouldwipe the floor with a level 50 player. The only way I can see this not being a grief fest is if the player controlled WA mobs were level 0 and unable to advance (well, maybe level 1. Maybe.)

As others have mentioned, I have no problem with a mob being under human control AS LONG AS that human is a TG employee or otherwise being held strictly accountable for his actions. By accountable I don't mean they'll slap your hand and make you start over if you act like a jerk. That's not accountability. I mean serious real world accountability such that you'd have to be crazy to even consider it. Such as being a TG employee would entail. Otherwise you'll have d00d controlled WA mobs ganging up, griefing players they don't like; helping out players they do like at the expense of other players, and in general doing all the crappy things which have given PvP the horrible reputation it has today.

Besides which, my new lair into which I've put many many hours of work is on the frontier. I would not take it kindly if I suddenly found myself in a PvP zone.Even if my level 100 dragon could easily handle one jerk controlled WA character I may not be able to handle 5 of them. I wouldn't be surprised if the guy suggesting that had the possibility of ganging up on players in the back of his mind.Thiswould also mean my level 27 hatchling alt would be at serious risk coming to my lair even though I got that lair in that location with the intention of ALL my characters being able to use it.

This would give me very few places where my level 100 dragon can hunt since I would avoid all PvP areas. Even if I'm stronger then anyone I'd likely face I'd probably avoid all PvP areas. I'm really really not into PvP.

Eve had a system similar to that -- some areas were PvP and some effectively weren't -- I played it for one month before cancelling. There's too many jerks out there with the mentality of a 5 year old who will ruin your day and your game experience just because they can. I am not into PvP. I don't wish to have anything to do with PvP. I avoid PvP. I avoid games with PvP and will quit games which introduce it.

The one way they could dothis is if they introduced a new PvP server. But it would be suicide for them to introduce ANY SORT of nonconsentual PvP into an existing PvE server. I think they understand this. I hope they understand this.

---------------------------------------

Player controlled mobs have been tried before in EQ1 on a PvP server. Even THERE on a PvP server they were hated by the regular players so much thatthe optionwas turned off within a day or two. The regular players complained that sometimes they just wanted to get away from the player killing and fight some computer controlled mobs and with that feature they couldn't tell when they'd be jumped by some idiot.

[Death-knell]

salt rock golem.....errrr. Salt rock, the bonus resource.

[LaughingOtter]

I think this is starting to get out of hand. This was one person with a "What If..." and David giving a response. It's not a proposal, it's not on the work list, the pony list, or the wish list. Frankly, I think it would be a good idea for David to quash this speculation with extreme prejudice.

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

Goriax, he's also stated that PvP of any kind would NEVER be in THIS Horizons, yet here it is.

LO, neither was the PvP arena on the work/wish/pony list, but it sure did get done during "lunch time" and implimented without word regardless.


My whole problem with the whole PvP debacle is I can't trust in ANYTHING they say. Been here since August 26, 2003 and I continually keep seeing words being gone back on. It's why I'm STILL not counting on ANY of the Conf changes hitting live in any sensible time frame and any chance of it getting finished at all is FAR less that the lowest chance possible. PvP is no different. It isn't going in, it isn't going in, it's only going in on Blight (but it wasn't going in?), /setpref stealthpatch ON it's on live (but it was only going in on Blight). Word after word after word, broken. Library limits increased; Nahp. Novian exchange NPC; Nahp. The list goes on.

How ANYONE can have faith in ANYTHING they say they will and won't do is beyond me. I gave up awhile ago. I'll still be patient and see what happens, but I have little to no faith in their words. I want actions and won't believe otherwise until I've seen em. It's sad really, cuz I really WOULD like to have at least a small amount of faith in their words. /shrug

[Flozzie]

It is simple for me, the day Non-consentual pvp enters into Horizons, I cancel my accounts.

[imported_chef]

I do not want to participate in PvP while playing Horizons. Nor be bothered every few minutes with request to participate in a challenge.

Contests in the Arena or on a Special PvP island that contains no item I may ever need is ok.

Respectfully submitted;
Chef

[C`gan]

Tagath and I both agree. PvP in, we're out. We came to this game over all the other big name games because this one specifically did not have PvP. It had dragons. It had construction. It had devs that were interacting with the people playing on both sides of the curtain.

Now, there's a thought about PvP outside a strictly controlled arena. That chills my bones. World projects would be doomed, I can guarantee. Too many griefers attacking overburdened builders who aren't able to haul as much if they have to carry both sets of armor and both tools and weapons. That is, assuming they're even the same level to be able to effectively defend themselves. I don't WANT to be FORCED into being a multi-100 adventurer. That's not why I joined this game. I have 20 accidental warrior levels and that's IT, for two years of being here.

We're sorry, but if all games have to have some sort of PvP to survive just because the big game companies who have no respect or concern about their players have it, then we'll have to go somewhere else. We're not lemmings.

[Jayne]

I wonder??? I have never been involved in PvP based games like the ones you all dislike. And let me clearly state "I AM BY NO MEANS SAYING I WOULD LIKE IT EITHER!"

So lets look at this as a business stand point. I can be a company that stays small and has a small player base, or I can be one of the mega giants and get loads of money.........hummm

What would you do???

Its easy for us to sit back and say "Keep it the way it is". But some of us playing this game make way more money annually then any of the folks at TG.

Anyway with that aside, lets say we want them to keep things small and never turn our game into one of those mega giants we dislike. I then ask "How in the world can anyone here even complain, criticize, or even ask that theyadd/remove anything from thisgame at all?"

Jayne

[Tantalyr]

Jayne, what Tulga will have to weigh, indeed speculate upon, here is whether the number of new subscribers attracted to non-consensual PvP will outnumber the veteran (and perhaps new) players who will cancel their accounts if non-consensual PvP is actually implemented in any form in Horizons. I cannot and will not speculate on that equation, but I will say a couple of things that are facts:

1) One of the primary aspects of Horizons that attracted me in the first place was the lack of PvP of any kind. I've had experience with PvP in a couple of other MMORPG's and it was all bad. And I am not alone in that worldview.

2) The fact that David Bowman has even thought about how he would implement non-consensual PvP in Horizons speaks volumes about the possibility of its eventual implementation in the game.

As Laughing Otter so aptly observed, now is the time for David to quash this budding black rose ifhe chooses to. If he chooses not to, then I suspect at least my days in Horizons are numbered.

[Jayne]

As I said, I am not necessarily for PvP as mentioned. What I am interested in is I hear the number of WOW players is like 100,000+ vs our what 7500? I don't know if those numbers are right, but if they were you do the math?

Jayne