Balancing the changes

[Aamer Khan]

In reading over the many posts here about changes that are made or even one being proposed, it becomes obvious to me that there is a pattern to what TG does as it is perceived by the players. I fully expect to have some flame me, bait me, or even agree. Feel free ( as I know you do ) to respond in any way you feel, I only ask for all to consider this, and not just react to another crazy post from that aamer fella.

Let me give a few examples and see if you see it too...

Gummy worms...
Introduced with NO down side at all.
Later changed to have a speed limiting of 8.
Now gummy worms are mostly a waste of time.

Shops in the field...
Introduced as broken, and when rebuilt, had all machines.
Later changed to only have resource processing not finishing machines.
There exist a few exceptions to this, like the smelter near dralk plat.
Why this exception, and not other equally reasonable spots like the maples?

Plots across all of Istaria...
Introduced with varying sizes and purpose types of Commercial, Industrial, Residential.
Later changes to be all RCI, all called large regarless of size.
Even some have had the sizes adjusted to a larger footprint, while the rest remain unchanged.

There are many other examples like these, but from just these what do you see?

I'll tell you what I keep getting told, and what I see myself.
A pattern of all/nothing, black/white, too much/too little.
Extremes, from one end of the spectrum to the other, without much in the middle.

Let's take Gummy worms and discuss that one. When introduced, It was obvious that the idea was to give a stat boost, from a cnf item that cost money to make. At intruduction, the simple thing would have been to add the boost, and limit the speed to 50 as has been suggested. To introduce it with no penalties, then to make the penalties so severe that the item becomes undesirable, makes one wonder why it was bothered with in the first place.

For some reason, ( and I say this from all the posts AND from comments from players ingame on chaos), nobody understands why such things are done. It seems like extremism is the normal thought process behind many changes we see. I have in the past tried to work with these changes in the spirit of moving forwards, and will continue to try to adjust to what ever happens. But, I really would like to understand why the middle ground is never the first choice when something is introduced, or changed.

Adding fun things like the gummy worms gives all players a boost of moral. But to always do it in an all or nothing manner, has caused almost everyone to expect this as the norm, and sadly wait to see how their new found enjoyment will be robbed, by some extreme change.

So players, what do YOU see?

And Developers, help us to understand why such extremes are your first choice.

[Vandellia]

And to add additional fuel to the fire some of the festival foods interfer with gifts and buffs one of the food made buffs ie granny nuffles punch is virtually the same effect as vestas so its a direct conflict with alchemist this is not a good thing
some of the formulas currently have components that do not drop in game right nowspiders and mice only dropped during the haloween event so the forms are next to usless.

[Justa Mirage]

We can go back a long time ago Aamer, (and one of the reasons an entire guild dumped out of the game)

In Istaria, characters made armor, weapons, and jewelry that enthralled the masses, with techniques on them that made the normal Istarian a force to be reckoned with! Our crafters were on the top of their game, with teched gear, to make better teched gear for those 20 levels above them. Life was good as some of these tech items were supplied by the adventurers themselves.

Something swept through the lands, and the intelligence of the crafting community were siphoned overnight, waking up the next day unable to craft. Though they tried, they could not understand why adding two tier 3 techniques added 150 more difficulty to the crafting of the item.

Things that were child's play before, now were unobtainable. A 40th level crafter had to wait until they were 54th level or higher to make a "level 40" weapon with 2 techs on it. This made the crafting community upset and many Istarians hung up their crafting tools and either retired, or waited it out. Making it so that tier 1 had a 25 penalty, a tier 2 had a 50 penalty and a tier 3 had a 75 penalty (had this remained in place, tier 4 would have been 100, and tier 5 would have been 125 per technique)

A few months went by and finally after watching a huge number of the playerbase vanish from the face of Istaria, the gods so granted a reprieve and the numbers were reduced to 10,20,30 (and then later when tier IV and V came... 40, 50) per tech, which was reasonable.

This history lesson was brought to you by the letter "Y" and the number "6" and the number "9"

[Aamer Khan]

Gotta love ya Justa!

I'm getting curious about the lack of responses to this thread, since I hear this particular concept talked about very often.

Maybe folks is jes busy er sumthin.[:$]

[Guaran]

I would say you got it right.

Gummi's were very useful at first. I bought 1,000 of the buggers.

Then they capped the speed at 8?!!?? wtf

I suppose the increased gathering rate while crafting was an unintended effect. 20% more resources gathered per minute was deemed too much. so they added a speed nerf that makes them just about unusable even for fighting.

I don't mind a speed cap to prevent abuse during crafting, but 8 is too far.

Either:

1) Make crafting gathering delay unaffected by the delay stat used for fighting. Make 2 seperate stats out of it. Then change gift of alacrity to affect gathering and fighting delay stats, make gummi's only affect the fighting delay stat, and remove the speed cap.

or

2) Increase the speed cap on Gummi's to something more reasonable like 30 to 45.

a speed in the 30's would slow down the farming of mobs, if gummi's weren't intended to enhance that either. However, with the tougher "evolved" mobs I don't know if that even needs worried about any longer.


So I have to agree with the statement that the all or nothing approach is too heavy handed. The game is about having fun after all, let's not forget that.

[PJ]

Heh even with the speed capped at 8, Gummy maggots are by far the best craftable consumable buff in the game.

[Guaran]

That is true, but thier usefulness is limited to boss mob fights now.

[Goriax]

You seem to be addressing things which are introduced and then the properties changed. This is as opposed to say, the client problem last weekend which was a bug or, to be precise, a bug fix uncovering other bugs; which happens a lot with software. I think there would be two main reasons for this:

1. The item as introduced was not as intended. I.e. there was a bug -- not in the software, but in the properties of the item. Perhaps gummie maggots were always planned to have a downside but somehow that didn't get in. When it's discovered they have the choice of leaving it as-is or fixing it after the fact. Often they (rightly) decide to fix it after the fact. This is strictly an internalQA problem. I don't know what their QA procedures are but they might want to rexamine them if this happens so much that it's disrupting the game. Blight testers usually can't help here because they don't know what was intended.

2.A featureis introduced as intended (zoning of plots is a good example) but after a long or short period of play they decide it would work better if done differently. Particularly whenthere are many many complaining players (such as was the case with plot zoning). There's no way to know how fun a feature is until it's been played. A lot. By many different people with many different kinds of characters. Just because something SOUNDS good doesn't mean it'll work out. They'll never be so lucky that their first attempt at something will be just right.Thismeans that ideally they'dhave to go through manycycles oftest and tweak, test and tweak until it plays well. This takes time. Most likely many features (especially small ones) go in with one cycle if that which means there's an element of luck as to whether it's just right for good balanced play (and every player has their own idea of what constitutes good balanced play). They probably get a lot of surpriseswhen new features hitthe live servers. Blight should theortically be a good buffer for this kind of thing, but for various reasons (hardly anyone plays there, for whateverreason their reports are often ignored)it doesn't appear to be enough.

The solution would be more cycles of test and tweak. However, that takes time (you think it's taking a long time to get your favorite feature in now, more testing means it'll take even longer). More people testing also works, unfortunately Blight isn't exactly crowded. Even with lots of people on Blight they'd need people going over the reports seperating the handful of useful reports from the mountain of useless ones. They probably can't hire more people just for testing or overseeing Blight testing, or at least not enough to do a thorough job. If they hire another tester for example, that means they can't hire another artist and features which require graphic assets willstill take forever waiting for artist time. It's all a tradeoff with no perfect or even good solution.

Anyway, that's always been my take on the problem.

In a canned single player game this isn't such a big deal. They just have to meet one release date.Ideally they'llhave a feature freeze a few months before ship and spend the rest of the time polishing and fixing bugs. With an MMORPG things are being continually released and it's not practical to spend a few months polishing a game which is feature frozen. It's never frozen. Consequently stuff gets released without the same degree of testing. I've seen this problem in all MMORPGs I've played.

Personally, if I had to choose between a game in which newfeatures are added at a reasonable pace, butwhich periodically has to have some live features tweaked or outright fixed; and a game in which nothing ever needs tweaking but thingsare released at a truly glacial pace; I'drather live with live features gettingstweaked.

[Aamer Khan]

I, and most others, can fully appreciate how after something is introduced, it may need tweeking due to unforeseen bugs and unintended effects. That is a given, and is not what this thread is about.

The all or nothing method of tweeking IS what it's about. Q&A is of course where that can best be addressed, but as is mentioned, there are too few to do that job atm. I too choose to stay here even with this problem, because I like the game, content does get added more regularly than many other games, and I have always liked it over what else is out there. And don't think this is some sort of rant or whining. It is a call to reason, with the goal of keeping happy players.

I would like to make the suggestion to the devs to review changes carefully, before they are added. Again using the gummy worms as an example, decide in advance of introduction, what the max/min benefit from the item will be, the max/min penalty for using the item, and then introduce it with the benefit/penalty somewhere in the middle of the ranges. I would even go as far as to say, chose the high side of the middle, as it will add more fun to the effort to get it.

Now, perhaps thats exactly what they try to do, and this whole thread is moot. Perhaps we are the ones that don't like what the middle ground is. Some posters sure have complained over the last 2 years about how epic weapons and items are so weak compaired to what we can make ourselves. Do any of us regularly use our jewelery sets? No? why not? Those of us with demon flurry bow, how often do you actually use it? Contrast that with the demongi. (sp)

I firmly believe that any item that has great benefit, should have a cost involved in using it. Dragons already have that with hoard use. Many of the newer items like the Reklar or even the shield from the Daknor quest, are like this. The shield is very interesting. An evasion penalty that you will notice, but a very nice armor boost, with a random amount of blight resistance to boot!. Equip it once, and you may have +400 blight resist, or maybe just 100.

To me, this illustrates the way to go in the future. Give something good that players will enjoy, but apply a reasonable "cost" to using it. Be it stat reduction, charges, or any other rational penalty, and you will make the player base very happy. Continuing to give awesome items then later to nerf into worthless status, only irritates any that have those items. Do it enough... Well, we have seen what happens.

[Cloe]

That is an interesting take, this isn't a response to it but it got me thinking of a few things that have been distracting over all, either because I've read them in the forums in one form or anotherat some point or something just doesn't quite connect.


The Seven Wastes of Software Development Overproduction (Extra features) Inventory (Requirements) Extra processing steps (Extra Steps) Motion (Finding Information) Defects (Bugs not caught by tests) Waiting (Waiting for decisions, Including customers) Transportation (Handoffs)
Reading a book on lean development only works if all the elements are applied and the old methods are shed.I'll be brave enough to say that small companies absolutelyshould be plugged into this.

Management needs to get out of the way of the developers and let them do their job vs changing priorities. Lean software production is not a management style it's a method. Often it's a concept thats too little too late, applied desparately when a software company is in trouble. I've seen it twice to know that happening a third time somewhere isn't unrealistic.

players pointing out each tree thatisdifferent in the forest doesn't give a fair view of the forest overall. 30% off may not be dire straights but it smacks of robbing peter to pay paul. It's a gamble, get that one extra person to get over the next hill. <Istaria> forbid that it's just to keep the doors open.

Long term broken features and not working as intended is not so much an issue of development as it is a problem with the organizational skills ofwhom ever is assigning work load. I can directly relate this to the Satyr invis bug.It's now part of the landscape. Let go for two years, then asthe graphics aretweaked the real root cause comes into play. This should have been picked up before the merge and I'd bet dimes to dollars someonesbeenwishing this whole time before the last client that it would have just resolved it's self.Thats not based in reality as I don't know for sure and it very well could be just from trying to improve client performancebut the entire graphics change is entirely too similar to dismiss out of hand.

Feedback from the playerbase only goes so far and they are absolutely blessed that they have a long term player base that helps debug the "released" game.

Will bugs occur and pop up at the worst times? Like during a special promotion??. Absolutely they will, but time after time after time?? I really think thatshow the bugs are squashedand lends to the perspective of the heavy handed, black and white perceptions expressed. "I don't care how just make it go away now" followed by "Make a note of it so we can resolve it later"

I really do think this is a great game and am greatful for the quality associations I've made in the last two years. I wouldn't put the time and effort into making a post like this if I didn't care. The last major problem with the client should have been rolled back vs asking for print pos help us fix it. Why is it better forpeople to log in 20 times in effort to play vs rolling back?? Again like the heavy handed bug fixes or nerfs as the case may be, it just stays in till people accept it or forget about it (or they finaly iron it out)for a while when the next bug of the moment pops up. By the time people come back to it and say "hey!" the dev focus is pointed else where.Thats when I perceive the heavy handed fix is applied. One day that checkwon't clear the bank.

As Goriax pointed out so well, thedevelopers may not be able to forsee a bug till it goes live and all aspects of the game are used more frequently. That makes a lot of sense. However I get the impression that he is working in a more stable dev environment. I hope TG can become such a place. No doubt that the dev's deserve it and are dedicated. Amon especially since he's posting off hours and on weekends plus effecting whatever fixes he's able to. I think any company would be darn lucky to have him as part of the team.
I don't think you'll find anyone any where as a better example of taking ownership.
I'd like to think that his dedication is reflective of some of the other developers.

This isn't directed at anyone, it is simply my impressions of the paterns from my perspective on whats been going on with the bug/nerf for sometime now and plausable whys. I don't pretend to understand the structure of TG and who is responsiblefor what but I've seen enoughgood and bad practices first hand in the pastto conjecture what elements aren't in place or working as intended.

In concept and by reflection I don't think I've really said anything new here. Well maybe the lean production chart lol.


Edit:
For anyone that actually would like to understand the RL challenges behind the scenes. Here is a link on one look atthe not so easy method I refered a little too matter of factly.
http://www.projectperfect.com.au/inf...evelopment.php

I still maintain that what is on the outside is reflective on what is going on inside not the people perse' but the structure.

[Aamer Khan]

Most scholarly and informative, and it goes to illustrate where the break down may have occured. I read the information on that linked page, and even though I don't really have first hand knowedge of how TG's structure is set up nor it's company culture, much of what you said rang true.

Let me post my impressions of the principles that the article mentions, and how I percieve they may or may not have been implemented by TG...


The proposed lean software development process principles are:


1. Eliminate waste; Forced by bankruptcy or funding, very little waste evident now at TG.


2. Satisfy stake holders; Would have to learn fully who the stake holders are to comment.

3. Empowerment; Current dev's are given this, and some have made great strides with it.

4. Deploying Comprehensive testing; Not enough manpower, or time to do this.

5. Deliver as fast as possible; Attempted, but point #4 issues often prevent or cause a recall.

6. Refactoring; Has been done well at times, cargo disks being an example. Do it more.

7. Learn by Experimentation; Often done by players not testers. This should stop.


8. Measure Business impact; Visible to players as loss of large portions of the playerbase.


9. Optimize across organization; Not enough knowledge to comment.
Those are MY perceptions, Yours may differ greatly. How do YOU folks see it?

I want any developer who reads this thread to realize, that I am only trying to pass along how I and the playerbase are perceiving the current state of the game. Also realize that I still login everyday, still have 3 accounts, and will not be going anywhere soon.

Other games may be pretty, some may have less lag, but none have tried to have an immersive zoneless world. I would not still be playing if I believed that the greatness we all hoped for in the beginning could not one day be realized.

[Justa Mirage]

I think what sums the gummi worm (and ANY other spell/ability/food/etc) in the game is this:

use this example: When achild of less than 4 years in age gets something new in their hands, they put it in their mouth... "is it etable?" then the pull, stretch, throw, and otherwise chew on it, trying to find out what it does.

When the game gives the player "Ability X" they will eat, chew, stretch, and play with that ability trying to find out everything they can with it....

Will it Stack with other abilities?
If used in this situation, how can it aid me?
Can I use it in place of a game provided spell / ability?
How can I use it in a way it "wasn't intended?"

The list goes on... and it could be anything, not just gummi worms.

As Cloe said, Nerfs usually come after the players have taken a game provided ability beyond "blight testing" and in live game play use, have figured out new ways of using (or abusing) a power, ability, food, game provided buff, etc. that overbalance their concept of "normal gameplay"

[Aamer Khan]

I understand.

However, the fact remains that when the re-balancing takes place, ( what most seem to be referring to when they say "nerf" ), it is often viewed as heavy handed, or extreme.

Regardless of what specific you might refer to, when the nerf bat falls, it is often a swing all the way to the opposite side of where it was. Items go from overpowered, with unintended overly large benefits, to mostly useless. That is the issue this thread is trying to address.

Of course, TG should bring into line, things that are overpowered. Of course they won't always be able to foresee what unintended effects, newly introduced items will have. I can't argue against that at all. I can say, that to do it with extreme swings from one side of the spectrum to the other, has caused great harm across the board.

As I already posted, TG has begun to make a change in this area already, as is evidenced by some of the newest items that have been introduced with the Reklar and Daknor Items. Even a few of the SOG weapons have been adjusted upwards towards making them more desirable to use. I am very glad this is happening, and hope that it continues to become what we can expect from now on.

[Senkeleron Fell]

Heh even with the speed capped at 8, Gummy maggots are by far the best craftable consumable buff in the game.

I find it quite funny that some people find it to be the "best craftable consumable buff in the game", and at the same time various people are complaining that it is nerfed and useless :-)

Now THAT is balance!

[Aamer Khan]

I would agree with you that is was funny, except for the fact, that the only one that has publicly said they were the greatest, was PJ, who we all know, can surely hold his own in close contact combat. [;)]

What his comment meant to me, was that if only massively multiclassed players think these are great as they are, then "sumthin, sumwhares" went mighty wrong.[;)]

[Alladania]

I have to say, after reading PJ's post, I tried the gummy maggot during crafting last night. I filled my marble tarbash plus pack in under 6 minutes! I was very excited. I plan to try it out during combat this weekend and see how that goes too.

[Jayne]

Wow! Yes, Guaran and I are officially sponsored by the Gummy Maggot company :) Need I say more

Jayne

[PJ]

I would agree with you that is was funny, except for the fact, that the only one that has publicly said they were the greatest, was PJ, who we all know, can surely hold his own in close contact combat. [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-5.gif[/img]

What his comment meant to me, was that if only massively multiclassed players think these are great as they are, then "sumthin, sumwhares" went mighty wrong.[img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-5.gif[/img]

Actually, gummy maggots are of zero use to me personally. Which is my only complaint about them, I can't get any benefits out of them as the delay boost is for attacks (melee or ranged) and doesnt' effect spells.

But they are great. I've used them extensively on a more weapon oriented alt, less extensively multiclassed alt. They do have their limitations, but there are plenty of areas where those limitations dont' matter so much, and they've well greatly speeded up leveling. Unless the damage you're doing is so pathetic (single digits) that a +75 bonus to strength will almost double you're damage,a 25% reduction in delay is far better then +75 to a stat, or even +75 to every stat.

[Senkeleron Fell]

I would agree with you that is was funny, except for the fact, that the only one that has publicly said they were the greatest, was PJ, who we all know, can surely hold his own in close contact combat. [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-5.gif[/img]

What his comment meant to me, was that if only massively multiclassed players think these are great as they are, then "sumthin, sumwhares" went mighty wrong.[img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-5.gif[/img]

Since they easily sell for 3s each on Order I would say that PJ isn't the only person who finds them useful, despite the 'nerf'. Often people yell 'nerf' when they see balance going on in something they don't even use. Often, people only consider themselves when they start to complain about something, no matter what the benifit to others may be.

[Aamer Khan]

Having used them myself, and having heard a good number in MP and in personal chats, I am certainly not just considering myself. Nor have I said they have no value. In certain instances, they most certainly are useful. Are they worth the current speed limiting? Most would wager, would say no. This thread is not just me whining about a nerf. It is questioning the way that adjustments are made and things are introduced.

But regardless, once more returning to the actual issues addressed by this thread...

Instead of adjusting them down to where...

Only crafters with enough money to use the effect to gather, then remove the effect to drag their disk, or crafters that can save a bit more and make them...

Or players that are melee or ranged, and can pull effectivly without danger of the slowdown to the process by dying and having to recal and run back out...

This could have been thought out better, and made to have a reasonable speed penalty, work with all classes, and be made from gatherable resources. Could have, and that's the point. Some will use them as is, and thats wonderful. Many won't due to the way they were adjusted, and that part, is a shame. All of which, (including this very thread) could have been avoided, IF, a more middle ground approach was use.

I don't think that is asking the unreasonable. I will continue to adjust as best I can to any change "nerf" or not, and won't quit just because things are a bit hard, or something got broken by an "adjustment". I am just putting into the light, something, many perceive is a truth.