Should dragons have deferent adventure schools?

[lightning claw]

This might come as a shock but i don't know thing 1 about D&D

[Amecha]

On the D&D issue: True it would be great to have more options to work with as a dragon, but not at the expense of our originality. The fact that we aren't like other games is the best lure of all. All other RPGs, online and offline, seem to have a lot in common, from the way they're built, to the way they function. All the ones I've played are basically the same game in different worlds. If you've played one, you can easily play any of them.

Horizons is unique in that we are so different from the other games. Our world isn't like theirs, and I firmly believe that's the way it should stay. Why copy other games ideas, rather than come up with something new and unique.

[Oakleif]

Going back to the original topic of discussion, here are a couple proposals for discussion. Hopefully I've taken the ideas in this thread and the Helian and Lunus Equality Question thread and developed a balanced set of recommendations.

1) Add in the Gold Burst ability, which is identical to Gold Rage, but uses Primal skill rather than Tooth and Claw Skill. This would do much to balance the fighting ability of casting dragons (currently weaker) vs. melee dragons (currently stronger). To make this balanced, Gold Burst and Gold Rage should be quested for separately but at equal levels, and the two abilities should share one timer. That means that Gold Burst would be an ability with recycle timer of 0:25, range 0 (up this slightly as its a spell, or not as we really want the equivalent of Gold Rage on primal skill and could compromise on additional range), 2 extra attacks, +50 attack skill (chance to hit), 400% damage adjustment (that's what shows on my Gold Rage V anyway), equal horde cost at each level, and target effect crippled. My recommendation for the animation would be a casting animation of improved prime bolt, but sped-up. It would almost appear as a quick slap throwing out three balls of flame at the target. This is probably the highest priority of the three proposals in this post.

2) Helian and Lunus paths should be more philosophical and less tied to casting or melee combat styles. Many dragons have mentioned in various posts that they really are one faction, but took the other for its combat bonuses; or conversely, play a weaker dragon character because their faction bonuses don't match up with their combat style. My proposal for this is to remove the hard-coded bonuses based on the quest and give all adult dragons two emblems that have no titles attached, but do add the adult bonuses for combat. One would be +20 Spirit Resistance, +20 Ice Resistance, and +20 Primal. The other would be +40 Flame Resistance and +20 Tooth and Claw. Ancient combat bonuses would similarly be make emblems. This would allow a Helian dragon to choose the melee or casting bonuses based on their play style. The draw back is that they wouldn't be advertised as a dragon crafter or lairshaper when wearing these emblems. Of the three recommendations in this post, I consider this to be least vital.

3) Create advanced dragon schools, specializations really, for dragon caster, dragon healer, and dragon warrior, in addition to the normal advancement in dragon adventurer.
a) Dragon casters would earn new spells as they level: a faster casting version of Prime Bolt / Improved Prime Bolt, two more AOE spell lines that are not on a linked timer with any of the current AOE spells so that they can be closer to chain-casting AOE spells again, and a Power/Focus buff similar to the Strength/Dexterity buff granted by Promote Vitality. Other single target direct damage spells could round out any lists if more spells were needed in the round up. It is up to the developers whether they feel earning 9, 10, or even 11 points in the Primal skill per level, the way biped classes may do in their specialty, is warranted in order to make dragons more on par in the end game with multiclassed bipeds.
b) Dragon healers would earn single target heals (direct healing, not heal over time) similar to clerics, a castable resurrection, several augmentations that stack with dragon adventurer ability buffs (perhaps a speed/velocity buff and stat buffs similar to the augmentation line), and perhaps a stun/mez/root to allow for some minor crowd control and an offhand way of increasing their solo-ability a tiny bit. If dragon casters and dragon warriors are getting per-level increases in abilities, it would seem that Evasion / Magic Evasion would be the skills increased for dragon healers, since dragon breath is already at 10 per level.
c) Dragon warriors would receive several AOE melee attacks, several debuff specialty attacks (hamstring for instance), and possibly one or two more single target damage attacks to round out the list. These abilities should be focused on the “Bite, then think” light-tank model of heavy damage/moderate armor vs. the “agro management” heavy-tank model of moderate damage/heavy armor. Again, it is up to developers whether they feel an increase in Tooth and Claw per-level earnings is warranted.

Now for the caveats:

Dragon adventurer ability quests stop at level 70 with the level VII abilities. So I'd suggest making these specializations begin at level 80 or level 70 (if you'd like 3 x 30 more levels worth of additional leveling rather than 3 x 20 levels of additional leveling). These would function like the advanced schools (Knight of Creation, Spearmen, etc.) but would be joinable at this higher level, rather than level 20.

I would also suggest limiting these, either by direct requirement or by placement of trainers in areas that must be flown to, so that only adult and ancient dragons can join one of the specialized schools. After all, if a hatchling can't choose a political faction, the specialized trainers would question their dedication.

Similar to Lairshaper and Dragon Crafter, a character that has started to level in one of the specializations should be allowed to change to the other specializations as well by talking to the trainer again. However, I would highly recommend that none of the abilities in the specializations be masterable, so you only get them IF you are active in that specialization at that time. Dragons that are actively dragon adventurers would not get any of these specialized abilities.

As a side note on the topic of abilities, the dragon adventurer abilities that have been earned should be available while the dragon has specialized. That would seem to me to be a variation on masterable, so that the skill only appears in the dragon adventurer advancement path, but can be used by the specializations. I don't think you want to put the dragon adventurer abilities in the specialization advancement paths, or there is very little reason to need to advance in that path, and one of the secondary goals of this proposal is to give high-level dragons more game to play.

It is up to the devs whether extensions of the current dragon adventurer ability quests continued with versions for VIII, IX, and X at levels 80, 90, and 100, respectively. If they do continue, I would think that it would be fair to give dragon adventurers the quests for dragons gift and hardened scales and spiked scales (available to dragon adventurers and specialist dragons), dragon casters the quests for gold burst (see above) and primal mastery (just for dragon casters), dragon healers the quests for primal instant heal and drain strike (just for dragon healers), and dragon warriors the quests for gold rage and tooth and claw mastery (just for dragon warriors). This would further encourage dragons to spend the time to level in each of the four alternatives. Note that inclusion of the bonuses from primal mastery and tooth and claw mastery I think would mitigate much of the need for adding in per-level increases in skills.

So, in summary, the highest priority proposal is the first, whose aim is to help bring dragon casting on par with dragon melee. I have been lead to believe that most, if not all, coding for this has been done already, and would just need to be checked internally, and tested on Blight.

The second highest priority is the third proposal, which would add some longevity for dragon players by giving them additional levels to play thorugh, some diversity between dragons by giving them specializations, and a way to make the most experienced dragons a bit closer in ability to the most experienced multiclassed bipeds.

The lowest priority is the second proposal which consists of divorcing the spellcasting vs. melee choice from character politics.

[Theolaerynn]

Horizons is unique in that we are so different from the other games. Our world isn't like theirs, and I firmly believe that's the way it should stay. Why copy other games ideas, rather than come up with something new and unique.

Especially when Horizons has a superior concept than the games it might copy anyway :-)

[Hrough]

Quite superior, which is why we must help it succeed!

I also very much like the suggestions Oakleif has made. Reading them through, they're some of the best I've read.

[LOVWYRM]

that`s it, oakleif- can`t think of anything better

[Guaran]

Some interesting Ideas Oaklief, however first I believe Vitrium should first add in the remaining quests needed for skill boosts such as breath accuracy, Dragons Gift V (lvl 90 quest), etc. Then make an assesment. The Spiked Scales quest obviously cannot continue (the previous version of questing) because that became a part of ARoP, unless it picks up after ARoP at lvl 90 for spiked scales IX. Once these are in place (easy for devs to do comapred to rest of the suggestions), we can re-examine the playability of meele'ers and casters and go from there....

1) Gold Burst does need to be added so that a Dragon choosing a spellcaster combat style has an alternative to gold rage. Gold Rage recycle varies from I believe 60 seconds for gold rage 1, to 15 seconds for gold rage 7. Gold burst can follow a similiar pattern if desired. On Blight shard, Gold Burst is almost instant recycle.

2) Why make these small RoP boosts into an emblem? They are small enough they do not make a huge end-game difference. The current real end game problem is the lack of gold burst, forcing all dragons who want to stand up decently against Reklar or Daknor, etc, to be Lunus to get the Fangs of Fury crystal. the +150 tooth&claw skill goes a long way during those fights in helping your attacks land. Now the primal version of the crystal would have a use if Gold Burst was in.

2a) My own suggestion along these same lines of thought was to remove the ARoP weapon crystals, and make both sets of bonuses a passive ability to ALL ancients, regardless of faction. Combat style should never have been tied to political faction.

2b.1) An additional thought I have had regarding adulthood quest bonus and ancient quest bonuses was for skill increases. hatchy (and currently adult and ancient as well) get 8 tooth&claw skill per level, 8 primal skill per level, 8 breathskill/level. Hatchlings can begin out this way, but upon completing RoP, dragons should get 10 skill/level of the fighting skills (retroactive to all previous levels obtained). Upon completing ARoP the skills should be boosted to 12 skill/level. This would translate to an additional 400 t&c for a level 100 Ancient. (Boost breathskill now!) [Keep in mind that at the beginning of my suggestion I said missing quests need added FIRST, then we re-asess if any of the rest of this is necessary]

2b.2) An Alternative idea to this would be to allow dragons to use training points to customize their combat abilities as they see fit. Upon completing RoP a dragon gets an additional 600 training points to spend. Upon completing ARoP, another 600 training points are granted. This option is the more customizeable method, and grants the least actual gains. iirc 600 points would only = 200 t&c skill for example (Might only be 150 can't recall and i'm at work). Would help but really wouldn't be earth shattering.... These numbers could be adjusted so that say 150 or 200 skill would be the max allowed: The training window could peak T&C at 900 or 1000 points, therefore both sets of bonus TP's couldnt all feed into T&C necessarily. Dev's could figure that all out tho. [Keep in mind that at the beginning of my suggestion I said missing quests need added FIRST, then we re-asess if any of the rest of this is necessary]

3) Advanced schools, or specializations would be great. However I think they should come after ARoP, and after the missing skill quests are added. (Breath skill is sorely lacking in Ancients.. breath of flame burst misses more than it hits...).(Boost breathskill now!)

These quests could be for Beath of Lightning II, III, Ice Breath II and III, Dragon Stomp (An earthquake style area dmg/chance to stun), or similiar. Or they could break the fighting skills into totally seperate schools. That I think would take more work than the current Dev team could handle.