Feedback regarding Crystalshaping

[Xarog]

I recently took a 6 month break from the game. Imagine my surprise when I found out that crystalshaping is a lairshaper skill, BUT YOU ONLY GET EXPERIENCE FOR IT AS A DRAGON CRAFTER!

The game even says "You did not receive any experience for making this item because the skill(s) used to do so are not primary skills of your current school." This is blatantly false, crystalshaping IS a primary skill of the lairshaper school!


This is entirely illogical - it means you cannot shape crystals in order to get better at shaping crystals. The experience system in the game, or in any game, represents the idea that practicing something allows you to improve your skill at whatever you happen to be practicing. Given that, how can one possibly claim that repeatedly making crystals will not, over time, increase your proficiency?

This is a glaring hole in an otherwise superb crafting system, and I hope that the devs come to their senses and either make crystalshaping a skill for dragon crafters, or grant lairshapers experience for making crystals.

To that end, I am starting a petition here in this thread. If you believe as I do, then please add your name to this thread.

[Seranthor]

I wont sign and here is my reason... As you level your lairshaper you DO increase your crystalshaping skill. Perhaps you may have missed that tidbit. IF your getting exp for making crystals then be thankful that you do and dont give the devs a reason to take it away.

[AmonGwareth]

Xarog, Crystalshaping is not a primary skill because you do not use it to create any of the finished products for your Lair nor do you use it to apply resources to your Lair. Crystalshaping is a secondary skill for the Lairshaper school. Hence, you do gain points in it, but you gain no XP for working intermediate products such as focused azulyte crystals using the skill.

[Xarog]

I wont sign and here is my reason... As you level your lairshaper you DO increase your crystalshaping skill. Perhaps you may have missed that tidbit. IF your getting exp for making crystals then be thankful that you do and dont give the devs a reason to take it away.

So... you would have no problem with a scholar only gaining experience for making spellshards, but not essence orbs? That's an honest question, I really would like a reply.

Xarog, Crystalshaping is not a primary skill because you do not use it to create any of the finished products for your Lair nor do you use it to apply resources to your Lair. Crystalshaping is a secondary skill for the Lairshaper school. Hence, you do gain points in it, but you gain no XP for working intermediate products such as focused azulyte crystals using the skill.

Then *why* is it a primary skill for the lairshaping school? *Why* does shaping lairs make you more proficient in crystalshaping?

Next thing people will tell me that miners gain mining experience with a fishing rod dipped in a lake...

[AmonGwareth]

That is what I was saying... It is *not* a primary skill for lairshaper. Hence, no XP. It is a secondary. The school still gains points in the skill (like it does in other skills), but only primary skills gain XP when used.

Currently only the Lairshaper school has the Primary Skill system implemented. Others, such as Confectioner, may use this method in time.

[Xarog]

That is what I was saying... It is *not* a primary skill for lairshaper. Hence, no XP. It is a secondary. The school still gains points in the skill (like it does in other skills), but only primary skills gain XP when used.

Currently only the Lairshaper school has the Primary Skill system implemented. Others, such as Confectioner, may use this method in time.

But it *is* a primary skill. next to where it's listed in the skills section of the character sheet, the words "Dragon Lairshaper" appear next to it.

[Steelclaw]

Wow, my first reply to a real thread on the new forums...

Anyway, look at it this way: the XP reward that you get is deferred untill the creation and application of the final resource (primal essence and crystalline lattice). Yeah, it sounds like a cop-out, but consider this: you can't decon stuff made with those crystals, nor can you decon the focused crystals. You lose no "potential" XP in being able to con/decon stuff in the resource chain. Furthermore, check out the XP for application. I think it makes up for the lack of XP in making focused crystals.

If you focus on optimizing your crafting strategy, you will level at a very reasonable pace for the time involved. The focus for lairshaping is building the lair -- and you will gain levels much faster than you will complete chambers. Worry about how long it takes to finish that T2 hall, not how long it will take to get to lvl 40 lairshaper!

[Xarog]

None at all.

It prevents bipeds from raising scholar by making essence orbs, and then switching to enchanter to use those orbs to raise enchanting.

let me rephrase : The scholars would still get *skill* in making essence orbs, even if they did not get experience FOR making essence orbs.

This would STILL allow them to lvl the living daylights out of enchanter by making essence orbs - That is what would happen to make things comparable with the DCRA/DLSH situation we have now.

The idea is sound.

There is no need to gain experience making base resources such as focused crystals, bronze bars, and dim orbs. We get our experience in making the finished products and even more by placing them on the lairs.

Try it for a while, you will see that it's absolutly unnecessary to obtain even more experience.

It is most certainly not sound. In any other crafting school or discipline, as well as in the real world, practicing something makes you better at it. Miners get better at mining by cutting gems or making bars - they also gain skills in smelting and gemworking.

They do not gain experience for making jewelry. This is as it should be. Tinkerers do not gain the mining or smelting skill - making bars gives them no experience, nor does it increase their proficiency with tinkering. This is as it should be.

Dragon lairshapers gain skill in making crystals, but now you're telling me it's not a skill of the school - so why is it there? why does making a lair improve you skill in making crystals too? Does this not strike you as irrational?

It gets worse when you realise that you can try any school you like, and play the game for 10 years, and you will not get better at making crystals BY making crystals. This is fundamentally unrealistic.

I'm not adamant that crystalshaping should give experience to the lairshaping school. I *am* adamant that crystalshaping should be a means to increasing the crystalshaping skill. There are two possibilities that I foresee : (1) give lairshapers experience for making crystals, OR (2) make crystalshaping a dragon crafter skill, and let the skill be determined by the level of dragoncrafting the dragon in question has.

[Xarog]

Steelclaw : Sorry, I was posting as you posted this :

Wow, my first reply to a real thread on the new forums...

Anyway, look at it this way: the XP reward that you get is deferred untill the creation and application of the final resource (primal essence and crystalline lattice). Yeah, it sounds like a cop-out, but consider this: you can't decon stuff made with those crystals, nor can you decon the focused crystals. You lose no "potential" XP in being able to con/decon stuff in the resource chain. Furthermore, check out the XP for application. I think it makes up for the lack of XP in making focused crystals.

If you focus on optimizing your crafting strategy, you will level at a very reasonable pace for the time involved. The focus for lairshaping is building the lair -- and you will gain levels much faster than you will complete chambers. Worry about how long it takes to finish that T2 hall, not how long it will take to get to lvl 40 lairshaper!

I'm not interested in the fact that lvling lairshaper is slower, or about optimising my crafting strategy. I'm taking issue with the fact that the way the two schools have been linked is logically inconsistent.

Would you agree with the idea of giving fitters the gemcutting skill, but then not allowing them to gain exp from gemcutting, and then making jewelers depend on the fitting school for their proficiency in gemcutting? Again, this is an honest question, I really am interested in the reply.

[AmonGwareth]

I'm sorry you feel that way about it. Crystalshaping is setup as a secondary skill so that it will not gain XP and it isn't going to change.

Jeweler is a good example though. If the Primary Skill system were implemented across the board for crafting schools, Jeweler might not gain any XP for processing gems. Instead, they would only gain XP for making Jewelry.

The ultimate goal of the Primary Skill system is to ensure that players gain XP for working their art, for doing what their school should be doing. Construction schools for bipeds are good examples of why Lairshaper is the way it is. Making tools is unfortunately the fastest way to level Fitter. But that doesn't make sense if you think about it. You gain levels as a Fitter by making tools? Not by learning your craft, which is making metal parts and constructing buildings. Using this example, I'm sure you can see why Lairshaper's only gain XP for making the finished products and XP for applying those products to lairs.

[Xarog]

We also get *skill* for making focused azulyte, even if we do not get experience FOR making focused azulyte.

It is the exact same thing.

No it isn't. You get more skilled in something by gaining more experience with it.

Yet the scholar would not gain experience. That is the intent...

Then they should also not be gaining skill in making those orbs. Doing something gives you experience - experience is how you learn. In the game, experience is what you get for making something, to represent experience in the real world - learning is represented in an increase in skill values.

I specifically stated that it was a skill of the school. I said it was a secondary skill. Why is it there? Because it is a part of the school. That's the whole point.

If it's part of the school, then it working with it should give experience toward that school.

That's because the school is not Dragon Crystalshaper. It is Dragon Lairshaper. You get better at Lairshaping by shaping lairs, not crystals.

Then you shouldn't get skill in it either.

Jeweler is a good example though. If the Primary Skill system were implemented across the board for crafting schools, Jeweler might not gain any XP for processing gems. Instead, they would only gain XP for making Jewelry.

If they didn't gain skill in it either, like tinkerers, then I could agree.

The ultimate goal of the Primary Skill system is to ensure that players gain XP for working their art, for doing what their school should be doing.

So then why give them the skill to do something they shouldn't be doing with that school? If this is your position, then tell me why it isn't reasonable to want the fitting school to become better at chopping down trees.

By giving dragon crafters experience for making crystals, you're implying that it's a primary skill for dragon crafters. But you are not rewarding them with skill for their experience. Why?

I have another suggestion : make crystalshaping a school all unto it's own, like mining or gathering - would you agree that this is reasonable? if not, why not?

Making tools is unfortunately the fastest way to level Fitter. But that doesn't make sense if you think about it.

Indeed it doesn't. I have no problem with metalworking being entirely removed from the fitter school. I *would* have a problem if you removed the experience from making tools as a fitter, but you left the metalworking skill. That makes even less sense than fitters gaining experience for making tools through metalworking.

You gain levels as a Fitter by making tools? Not by learning your craft, which is making metal parts and constructing buildings. Using this example, I'm sure you can see why Lairshaper's only gain XP for making the finished products and XP for applying those products to lairs.

And I would be happy with that. IF and only IF they did not gain skill in crystalshaping too.

It's like giving fitters skill in making essence orbs - how crazy is that?

[Xarog]

I just did some checking - turns out you don't get experience for making crystals as a dragon crafter.

I still think it's silly that dragons don't get experience for making something that they have a skill for when EVERYTHING ELSE in the game does work this way - it's generally inconsistent, and in my personal opinion, sloppy.

But it isn't a gross absence of rationality (but still a small one), as I claimed earlier. I would be satisfied if crystals gave a token amount of experience to the lairshaper school, because this is indeed realistic. It could also be moved into the dragon crafting school, or made into a school of its own; that too would be realistic, the former even moreso since you use quarrying to excavate the crystals.

On the other hand, it's still ridiculous that the mere act of shaping a lair should make one better at harvesting crystals, given that it's not supposed to be a primary part of lairshaping. I could buy all my crystals from someone else, or get a friend to make them for me, and in this way never ever touch a crystal in the game, yet the game says I'm proficient at getting them. That's unreasonable. Also, by this line of thinking shaping a lair should increase your proficiency with making stone bricks and metal bars, but it doesn't. That's again inconsistent, and again illogical.

You want a skill based system where there is instead a school based system. We increase our skills by raising the levels of our schools.

No. I want a system where using the skills of the school all go toward improving the overall proficiency with that school. If you take crystalshaping out and put it in another school, I would be happy with this. That by itself invalidates your claim regarding my desires.

We gain skill by using our Primary skill of Lairshaping. Any time you activate that ability, you will be gaining experience. Anything else gives you nothing. Everything else is Secondary. The school dictates our skill, not repetative use of the skill. When you gain enough experience by lairshaping, all related skills increase. No matter how much you used them.

This is not true. I do not improve my quarrying or mining abilities, even though I used them to make my lair.

Edit : Dragon lairshapers DO infact improve their quarrying and mining abilities : http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=10359

[Deth]

From the hints I have seen around they will give xp with crystals once they get around to adding the crystalworking class they have hinted at for dragons. The one that will allow us to make weapon,armor, and jewlery crystals that have been hinted at on the old boards and on the crystal preview.

The reason we gain the skill with no XP is because yes we need the skill to do the class but they want to stop the Level X class to 100 then go back to Class Y at level 1 run out to the T5 Field and level there at an insane speed.

[Seranthor]

So... you would have no problem with a scholar only gaining experience for making spellshards, but not essence orbs? That's an honest question, I really would like a reply.

Regardless of whether I have a 'problem' with it... this is the shape of all things to come regarding crafting... exp for making the finished product ONLY. Lairshaping just happens to have been the first school to come out AFTER that decision was made by TG.

[Xarog]

From the hints I have seen around they will give xp with crystals once they get around to adding the crystalworking class they have hinted at for dragons. The one that will allow us to make weapon,armor, and jewlery crystals that have been hinted at on the old boards and on the crystal preview.

That would be nice. Especially if it finally gives dragons the ability to make something bipeds want/need, but cannot make for themselves.

The reason we gain the skill with no XP is because yes we need the skill to do the class but they want to stop the Level X class to 100 then go back to Class Y at level 1 run out to the T5 Field and level there at an insane speed.

There are better ways to go about it.

Regardless of whether I have a 'problem' with it... this is the shape of all things to come regarding crafting... exp for making the finished product ONLY. Lairshaping just happens to have been the first school to come out AFTER that decision was made by TG.

If that's the way they're going to go, it would make more sense to get rid of the craft system and instead adopt a pure skill system.

[Xarog]

Yet you denied it when I said that's what you were looking for.

And that denial is still correct. I don't want it to be that there are only skills to develop, and not schools - but if you're going to start messing about with primary and secondary skills, then skill system is a more sensible choice.

We do not have a skill system and instead have a school system. That is the way it is. The change makes it so that you level up the school by using the primary skill of that school. The primary skill of the Dragon Lairshaping school is Dragon Lairshaping.

I never said we had a skill system.

[Steelclaw]

If the XP rewards were adjusted accordingly, sure. why not?

I've been following your argument of primary vs secondary skills. I belive it is meant to work as this: Your work in your primary skill makes you better at not just your primary skill, but your secondary skill as well -- though becoming proficient at your secondary skill does not make you any better at your primary. Consider an example: Say you're a sysadmin. Your primary skill would be maintaining and upgrading computer installations. Because your primary skill involves knowing the bits and details about hardware, you would, by exercising that skill, increase your ability in a secondary skill, say working retail in a computer shop. The knowledge you gain as a sysadmin could be used to better (dis)inform customers of their purchase decisions, thus making you a better salesman. Unfortunately, becoming a good salesman does not have any bearing on your ability to perform sysadmin roles.

Similarly, lairshaping has some related quality that can make you better at crystalshaping, but crystalshaping doesnt have a broad enough disclipline to make you better at lairshaping.

[Xarog]

I've been following your argument of primary vs secondary skills. I belive it is meant to work as this: Your work in your primary skill makes you better at not just your primary skill, but your secondary skill as well -- though becoming proficient at your secondary skill does not make you any better at your primary. Consider an example: Say you're a sysadmin. Your primary skill would be maintaining and upgrading computer installations. Because your primary skill involves knowing the bits and details about hardware, you would, by exercising that skill, increase your ability in a secondary skill, say working retail in a computer shop. The knowledge you gain as a sysadmin could be used to better (dis)inform customers of their purchase decisions, thus making you a better salesman. Unfortunately, becoming a good salesman does not have any bearing on your ability to perform sysadmin roles.

I can accept that. But, I also think every skill should be considered a primary skill for at least one school.

Similarly, lairshaping has some related quality that can make you better at crystalshaping, but crystalshaping doesnt have a broad enough disclipline to make you better at lairshaping.

I can accept this too.

[Jaraiden]

I'm sorry you feel that way about it. Crystalshaping is setup as a secondary skill so that it will not gain XP and it isn't going to change.

Jeweler is a good example though. If the Primary Skill system were implemented across the board for crafting schools, Jeweler might not gain any XP for processing gems. Instead, they would only gain XP for making Jewelry.

The ultimate goal of the Primary Skill system is to ensure that players gain XP for working their art, for doing what their school should be doing. Construction schools for bipeds are good examples of why Lairshaper is the way it is. Making tools is unfortunately the fastest way to level Fitter. But that doesn't make sense if you think about it. You gain levels as a Fitter by making tools? Not by learning your craft, which is making metal parts and constructing buildings. Using this example, I'm sure you can see why Lairshaper's only gain XP for making the finished products and XP for applying those products to lairs.

Is that a high priority Amon? Been too long where some crafting schools can be leveled on by making non-primary items (sculpting tools for spellcrafter, tools for construction).

Similar with adventure schools - Druid to Ranger without touching a bow. Could types of damage be a factor for adventure XP - piercing with a bow vs. Nature damage? Points healed, etc?

In the future I hope to see that rolled out to every other craft class so that people actually use the class to make what the class is intended to make.

Agreed and sooner than later.

[AmonGwareth]

It is a high priority, but it is also a very time-consuming process and so it gets pushed back frequently by other projects.