Feedback regarding Crystalshaping

[Seranthor]

Xarog, your trying to fight a battle that was fought and decided months ago. It is how it is going to be. You cant change it now regardless of how much you bluster, cajole or attempt to explain. If you can not or will not accept that then I'm sorry to hear that, I can assure you that IF you were actually working on your lair then you'd most definately WANT that crystalshaping skill in your lairshaping school.

[FleshRoast]

So it's OK for lairhsaping to boost crystalshaping without actually making any crystals, but it's not ok for crystalshaping to boost lairshaping? Someone PLEASE explain this to me? Am I the only one who thinks that's TOTALLY arbitrary?

I do not think this is arbitrary, I think it's perfectly logical. Lairs require the use of crystals and their forms, crystals do not require lairs.

If you have two schools, one that makes rectangles and another that makes squares, and you make a square, both schools should get credit. Make a non-square rectangle and the square school deserves no credit.

[Vandellia]

Lets base this on real world facts and use real life trades
Jewelers do not of necessity smelt their own gold /precious metal yes then can but its not their primary skill they dont actually use smelting to do much then make bars where their man expierence comes from is actually making jewelery not in getting the gold carpenters for the most part do not make their own lumber but buy lumber they really learn their trade by making things like braces and by building structures they will in the course of a career learn shortcuts/simplification methods to their school but a carpenter dosent care about how the boards are made just what he can make from them

[LaughingOtter]

This vaguely reflects reality. It does not reflect reality when I can make 10 million focused crystals, but the game says I'm still a lackwit that knows nothing about the art, and thus my skill is still 10.

Well, not everything is going to reflect reality. Getting silk from a plant, getting kenaf from sheep and kenaf plants - those do not reflect reality. If lairshaping reflected reality, Dralk would look like a massive prairie dog town as the dirt excavated from inside each lair mounded up outside the entrances.

Sometimes, reflecting reality is gonna lose, and lose badly.

[Xarog]

Xarog, your trying to fight a battle that was fought and decided months ago. It is how it is going to be. You cant change it now regardless of how much you bluster, cajole or attempt to explain.

I do not bluster nor cajole. I have not forced anyone to read or partake in this thread. You are free to ignore it if you so wish. Given the fact that you believe what is going to happen is a certainty, I'm a little surprised that you haven't ignored it already.

I can assure you that IF you were actually working on your lair then you'd most definately WANT that crystalshaping skill in your lairshaping school.

Not if it presents logical inconsistencies, no. If you tell me that I suddenly need cheese to make metal weapons, I would react the same way.

I do not think this is arbitrary, I think it's perfectly logical. Lairs require the use of crystals and their forms, crystals do not require lairs.

Exactly. So if I want to get better at making crystals, I shouldn't have to make a lair.

[Seranthor]

*shakes his head*... you just dont get it.

Good luck on your crusade Sir.... your going to need lots of it.

[Xarog]

First off : apologies for the late replies and missed posts, I'm currently discussing this on more than one front and my abilities are, sadly, human.

Lets base this on real world facts and use real life trades
Jewelers do not of necessity smelt their own gold /precious metal yes then can but its not their primary skill they dont actually use smelting to do much then make bars where their man expierence comes from is actually making jewelery not in getting the gold carpenters for the most part do not make their own lumber but buy lumber they really learn their trade by making things like braces and by building structures they will in the course of a career learn shortcuts/simplification methods to their school but a carpenter dosent care about how the boards are made just what he can make from them

And conversely, they don't get any better at chopping trees or mining and smelting precious metal. Tell me that jewelers will receive no mining or smelting skill whatsoever, and I will happily end this thread, satisfied.

Well, not everything is going to reflect reality. Getting silk from a plant, getting kenaf from sheep and kenaf plants - those do not reflect reality. If lairshaping reflected reality, Dralk would look like a massive prairie dog town as the dirt excavated from inside each lair mounded up outside the entrances.

The system we use to interact with the game should be reliable, it should be predictable, and it should make sense. Saying that the new lairs around dralk should have a ton of dirt around them has got absolutely nothing to do with the way the game system works, even if it does reflect reality. Arbitrarily placing resources processing centres far from the resources is annoying, and unrealistic, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the game system.

Sometimes, reflecting reality is gonna lose, and lose badly.

The system should still be reasonable, and it shouldn't be based on arbitrary differences.

[FleshRoast]

Exactly. So if I want to get better at making crystals, I shouldn't have to make a lair.

You don't. Add your created item to someone else's lair.

[Xarog]

That's still a lair.

[LaughingOtter]

The system should still be reasonable, and it shouldn't be based on arbitrary differences.

What is arbitrary about "Lairshapers gain XP for using the lairshaping skill"? In the new confectioner school, confectioners will gain XP for using the cooking skill. Same thing. Do lairshapers gain XP for using smelting, stoneworking, essence shaping, or transmutation? No. Therefor, no XP for crystalshaping, either.

Crystalshaping is a processing skill, and lairshapers don't get XP for processing, period. That isn't arbitrary, that is consistant with all other processing skills. Frankly, the core skills system is a lot more reasonable and logical than what we have now, which is almost unlimited freedom to level classes using skills that have nothing to do with what the class does.

On a side note, what possible reason do you have for wanting to raise crystalshaping, other then building lairs? It has no other use. A high score in crystalshaping means exactly squat by itself, so why get so bent out of shape about having to level lairshaper? The only explanation I can see is that you want to grind lairshaper up by sitting in a crystal mine and churning out focused crystals instead of actually BUILDING A LAIR, and you're upset that you cannot do the very thing that the core skills system was designed to prevent.

[Xarog]

What is arbitrary about "Lairshapers gain XP for using the lairshaping skill"? In the new confectioner school, confectioners will gain XP for using the cooking skill. Same thing.

There is nothing arbitrary about "Lairshapers gain XP for using the lairshaping skill".

Do lairshapers gain XP for using smelting, stoneworking, essence shaping, or transmutation? No. Therefor, no XP for crystalshaping, either.

I take less issue with this because I can still switch to DCRA, go make bars, and get rewards (i.e. skill improvement in making bars) for my effort.

But now that you mention it, I don't want lairshapers to gain skill in those disciplines if they don't get experience for it. I would be happier if lairshaping worked like tinkerer, and totally ignored those skills alltogether.

Crystalshaping is different in that there is no way to make crystals and then to get better at making crystals. This is unrealistic.

On a side note, what possible reason do you have for wanting to raise crystalshaping, other then building lairs? It has no other use. A

The same can be said about the miner school.

high score in crystalshaping means exactly squat by itself, so why get so bent out of shape about having to level lairshaper?

Because the system loses it's coherency and becomes arbitrary.

The only explanation I can see is that you want to grind lairshaper up by sitting in a crystal mine and churning out focused crystals instead of actually BUILDING A LAIR, and you're upset that you cannot do the very thing that the core skills system was designed to prevent.

You're free to draw your own conclusions, however false they may be.

[Lycaunoss]

On a side note, what possible reason do you have for wanting to raise crystalshaping, other then building lairs? It has no other use. A high score in crystalshaping means exactly squat by itself, so why get so bent out of shape about having to level lairshaper? The only explanation I can see is that you want to grind lairshaper up by sitting in a crystal mine and churning out focused crystals instead of actually BUILDING A LAIR, and you're upset that you cannot do the very thing that the core skills system was designed to prevent.

I have to ask the same question as LaughingOtter above. What's the motivation? Are you just bent out of shape because you can't use the skill to directly level anything? Crystalshaping is used to build lairs. That's all it's used for at this point in time and cannot be levelled independantly from lairshaping. I don't think that's going to change.

[Deth]

He seems to want a Skill based system where to be a Level 100 Laircrafter he and every one else would have to gring to 100 in each and every skill.

I do not feel the "system loses it's coherency and becomes arbitrary" at all. Because it is a class based and not skill based. I for one do not want to have to level up 4 or 5 different classes to be able to build a lair. If I did I would have played a Biped. As a Dragon I learn a shaping spell/ability that is more effective on some items then others. I.E. I use the spell ability hold the form of a Lattice in my mind and form a lattice and learn at that time what shapes work better in fitting together to form the crystals in. But when I use the ability/spell to form the crystals I learn nothing because I do not know how I should shape them best to fit the lattice till I try to place them in the Lattice. The same with Bricks and stones and Orbs. When working with the finished product I learn how best to shape the basic resources to best use them their for increasing my skill in them as I increase lair shaping. But practice forming a base resource does not tell me how best to make them for a final Lairshaping product.

Now if you want to complain about not getting Dragon Crafter Xp while in Laircrafter and forming basic resources that is another thread.

[Xarog]

I have to ask the same question as LaughingOtter above. What's the motivation? Are you just bent out of shape because you can't use the skill to directly level anything?

I believe I have said, many, many MANY times, that I do not agree with the fact that you cannot use crystalshaping to directly level crystalshaping. I believe I have also stated, more than once, that I think every single skill should be a primary skill for some school.

If you have to ask that question, then I have to wonder if you've read anything I've said in the first place.

Crystalshaping is used to build lairs. That's all it's used for at this point in time and cannot be levelled independantly from lairshaping. I don't think that's going to change.

And that's ridiculous, imo.

What really gets my goat is that these changes are being made because (supposedly), Tulga doesn't like the fact that people have been using skills to get levels in schools that weren't actually designed for the skills. How is that better than skills which cannot be improved by using them as they were intended to be used?

[LaughingOtter]

Miner and gatherer are dedicated processing schools. Their purpose is to provide resources to other crafters.

If you want to get xp for crystalshaping, there's a simple solution: you should start to advocate for creation of a dragon resource processing school, and removal of resource processing skills from both DCRA and DLSH. Then, in order to level either DCRA or DLSH, you have to level dragon resource processer. Smelting teaches you nothing about making scales, after all, just as building lairs teaches you nothing about shaping crystals. There you have your realism - crafting crystals makes you get better at - smelting and stoneworking.

Oh, dear.

Dragon metal smelter, dragon stone worker, dragon gem cutter - now we're talking! The reflects reality fairly well, and you've added more multiclassing for dragons. If there are any left playing, I'm sure they'll thank you.

[Eni]

Earthencraft will be a skill with no school that gains xp with (after primary skill change) confectioner needs and gets it. But xp only with real cooking.
Same fpr lairsahper and crystalshaping.

[Xarog]

He seems to want a Skill based system where to be a Level 100 Laircrafter he and every one else would have to gring to 100 in each and every skill.

No, I don't want that. But it's a better alternative to saying some skills cannot be improved by using them.

I do not feel the "system loses it's coherency and becomes arbitrary" at all. Because it is a class based and not skill based.

Niether do I, on the face of it.

I for one do not want to have to level up 4 or 5 different classes to be able to build a lair.

But you wouldn't have a problem if TG told you that you had to make spells if you ever wanted to get better at lairmaking?

I.E. I use the spell ability hold the form of a Lattice in my mind and form a lattice and learn at that time what shapes work better in fitting together to form the crystals in. But when I use the ability/spell to form the crystals I learn nothing because I do not know how I should shape them best to fit the lattice till I try to place them in the Lattice.

If that's the case then dragons are capital S stooopid.

But actually, that does open up another option : allow all dragons, lvl 0 to lvl 100 to make any crystal they want, t1 to t5, for no experience whatsoever, at the same constant ratio (1:1, 10:1, I don't care). Do this, and my problem goes away.

Edit : actually, this is wrong. Learning how to make the focused crystals into something worthy of being applied to a lair is lairshaping experience. Learning how to get the crystals that are out of the game into something resembling a focused crystal is crystalshaping experience (experience here refers to actual learning in the real world and is not meant to be taken to be referring to the numbers the game does or does not give you for processing raw materials.)

Now if you want to complain about not getting Dragon Crafter Xp while in Laircrafter and forming basic resources that is another thread.

Same issue, same thread.

[Xarog]

Miner and gatherer are dedicated processing schools. Their purpose is to provide resources to other crafters.

If you want to get xp for crystalshaping, there's a simple solution: you should start to advocate for creation of a dragon resource processing school, and removal of resource processing skills from both DCRA and DLSH. Then, in order to level either DCRA or DLSH, you have to level dragon resource processer. Smelting teaches you nothing about making scales, after all, just as building lairs teaches you nothing about shaping crystals. There you have your realism - crafting crystals makes you get better at - smelting and stoneworking.

Oh, dear.

Dragon metal smelter, dragon stone worker, dragon gem cutter - now we're talking! The reflects reality fairly well, and you've added more multiclassing for dragons. If there are any left playing, I'm sure they'll thank you.

This is a skill based system. Suits me fine, if Tulga are adamant about these changes. There are plenty of other games that have used them successfully, so I'm quite sure that people would still play if Tulga decided to change it thus.

Earthencraft will be a skill with no school that gains xp with (after primary skill change) confectioner needs and gets it. But xp only with real cooking.
Same fpr lairsahper and crystalshaping.

Just as ridiculous. Give Earthencraft a school in which it's a primary skill.

[LaughingOtter]

Just as ridiculous. Give Earthencraft a school in which it's a primary skill.

Yes indeed. Then I can play a dorf with a huge beard and a mullet, join that school, and proclaim myself "Hairy Potter".

[AA0]

To talk with a rock, speak in rock!