Introduce NEED into the economy

[Syndic]

Another thing to remember is there are players out there with alot of money (personally I have no idea how much that is) but to go along with this are new or returning players who have very little coin. I recently came back to the game with 126sp to my name (knew I should have sold my plot before I left).

Now to introduce new charges to players to reduce the money players hoard will no doubt hit the new players the hardest and most likely be a minor inconvenience for those veterans out there.

[Aamer Khan]

You guys are zeroing in on the tax idea and forgetting the other suggestions...

Add a componant to ALL crafted items like sandpaper or "flux" that cannot be gathered or looted and can only be bought from Imperial vendors.
( Would this hurt ANYONE if the tiered cost was reasonable for all tiers? )

Make cargo disks you can recall with, but make them require charges that can only be purchased and not crafted. ( enhanced Tarbash? )
( I can tell you that I would purchase these charges all day long )

Add an anti-aggro shield that can be used by pure crafters, so that they may gather in dangerous places. Make it last 15 minutes, and the t5 version could cost 5 silver.
( who would NOT buy this shield? )


At least Amon acknowledges that there IS a problem. Now let's see what CAN be done to fix it.

[AmonGwareth]

Thanks Aamer, but I'd like to point out that no single idea is going to fix the system. It will require a series of changes addressing specific parts of the system and then requiring a significant period of time with adjustments and tweaks.

[DarkElf]

The need of an economy? How so? For veteran long term players who have acquired alot of wealth then be generous and go to the newbie Islands and start donating it out to the new players.
The problem as I see it, new players come in with no wealth, head to the Consigners only to find a simple Level 1 Bronze Ringmail Breastplate is 250 copper. For them to outfit themselves they are already looking at a large expense.
It took me nearly 6 months to acquire enough silver just to buy a plot and I am talking a small 25x25 plot, so not everyone is wealthy by any long shot. Porting costs dig even further into the small cash flow of the regular player.

Istaria is no different than the real world, you have the insanely rich, the ones with a few gold and then the average player who isnt in it to gather money but to enjoy walking away from the real headache world of finances, bills, school fees etc. To implement taxes on plots ..blah ... no thanks, decay on the crafting shops that took ages to build, even worse idea, everyone would simply lock up their plots so they knew they were in pristine condition for when they wanted to craft themselves.

You have a couple of hundred spare gold, then go donate it to those struggling newbies, maybe that will encourage more players to stay in the fantasy world instead of leaving because finances is as much of a headache in the game as in the real world.

[ZombieKing]

Go directly to jail
Do not pass Go
Do not collect $200

monoply anyone ?

[Aamer Khan]

Thanks for the response Amon, but I already understand there need to be a series of things addressed to truly fix the economy.

Currently, pawn brokers are set so as to prevent crafters from farming them for money. However, comps and dropped loot still sells on them very well. Adventurers, it would seem are now the intended method for having wealth enter into the system, since they can continue to sell the product of their activity. Crafters are now limited in this. For them to make money, they MUST charge the adventurers for crafted items, but alas, many such crafters are also multiclassed adventurers. Items don't wear out, so you are left with an over saturated market, with folks that can buy, but don't need to.

Much of this would change if there were more players. I am sure the changes in the pipeline, and the upcoming expansion, will help draw more players. But when they get here, how long will they stay in a craft centric game where there is no need to craft for others, and the items the new player can't craft, are hard to find due to the general malaise?

Amon, you mention item decay. That would be a fine start toward a working economy. Sure some will complain, since it changes their world. You also mention the need for items that are in demand. That one is much trickier no? How to make a desirable item that does not over balance things.To me the answer is make it anyway even if it does unbalance a little bit, just make it expensive. A disk you could recall with would be highly prized. if it cost 500s to buy off an imperial vendor, I would buy one!

I just hope you have something Planned.

[Solanaceae]

I think the problem is not so much that there is not a working economy, it is just that the economy is not based on the fiat currency that the empire uses. I cannot rember the last time that I took coin in exchange for services. Now if you want me to do a big job that might take a while, and you are willing to trade me something like lairshaping units for it, I might be more interested. Generally, the economy of goods is more favorable than the economy of coin to low level players, as goods are not subject to inflation quite so much.

[Cheopis]

Heh, you are correct, we are zeroing in on the tax idea and making absolutely certain that the Devs know how we feel about taxes

The only thing that concerns me about some suggestions I see here is that they would make crafters less necessary, not more. The idea of disposable components purchased from imperial vendors seems harmless enough, but the idea about the disk that you can port with, being sold from imperial vendors? Eek - every rich character would instantly buy such a disk, and tinkers would be out of some high end work - especially if item decay is put in. And I think you might be under-appreciating how much money a high teir crafter could make if they had access to a disk they can port with :P

About item decay - if you put item decay in, put it in on weapons, armor, tools, clothing, and other items, but please not on housing. Don't have the decay be time based, have it be use-based. I like the idea of damage on your armor each time one takes a crit, damage to weapons when you crit an enemy, or damage to tools when you harvest a bonus item. Have all craft classes that can make tools be able to create repair kits, which can be used by _anyone_ in the field to repair armor, weapons, and tools.

[Crazyfingers]

The need for items that are in demand is easy. Durable and consumable goods and rares. Pizza and a diamond. You can make alot of money on both. Takes alot more pizza thou. If horizons had some pizza that any player could make and every player NEEDED and diamonds that everyone WANTED. Then buying pizza instead of making pizza so you could spend more time looking for diamonds, would make sense

Two major flaws in horizons economy. The Poopy Tiered system and indestructable items. Need to be able to lose things, break things, repair things, recharge things and consume things. Over and over again.

Hire an economist

NimK

[Salis]

Suggestions for to stimulate a working economy: (long)

1. Production cycles of items should be thoroughly lengthened.
At the moment production of a batch of swords, spell, ... is about a 15 minute gathering process for a batch of items to supply the entire shard.
The rate of experience gain is OK though.

what I suggest is upping the required amount of mined, quarried, gathered and hunted resources.
Instead of making 1 iron bar out of 2 iron ore; make 1 iron bar out of 200 iron ore.
Instead of making 1 sword out of 8 bronze bars; make 1 sword of out 80 bronze bars.

Instead of making 1 sword out of 8 bronze bars; make 1 sword out of 80 bronze bars, 20 iron bars, 3 steel, 7 gold bars, 7 cut jasper, ...

Instead of making a bronze bar; make flawed, normal, decent, flawless and perfect bronze bars.
1 flawed bar is 200 ore
1 normal bar is 20 coal bricks and 2 flawed bars
1 decent bar is 40 coal bricks and 3 normal bars
1 flawless bar is 60 coal bricks and 4 decent bars
1 perfect bar is 80 coal bricks and 5 flawless bars.

Flawed, normal, decent, flawless and perfect are tied to Tiers aswell.

Metals are tied to a tier aswell as stages for bars are tied to tiers.

to sum it up.
A sword is made from a hilt and a blade (could be more items).
A blade is made out of 5 perfect steel bars, 20 decent iron bars, 5 flawless bronze bars, 100 units of charcoal bricks, 50 units of water.
A hilt is made out of 2 perfect mithril bars, 2 flawless gold bars, 1 perfect diamond, 2 flawless Jasper and 5 decent citrine, 100 decent spun flax, 7 perfect spun coton

A steel bar is made out of 200 nickel ore, 50 iron ore
An iron bar is made out of 225 iron ore

A maple charcoal brick is made out of 200 maple charcoal
1 maple charcoal is made out of 150 maple wood.
1 unit of water is made out of 100 buckets of water
...

Add to this techniques: no 1 or 2 comps for a tech: 20 to 200 comps needed for 1 tech.
You get the picture I hope. The work involved to make 1 item is a lengthened process. Not 20 minutes of work for 30 swords, but 20 hours of work for 1 sword. This sword has a value attached to it.

2. Ways to make coin.
For adventurers: Adventuring and selling loot to pawnbrokers. No way to sell looted items in consignement.
Loot drops in form of comps, pawnable loot and raw coin (from appropriate critters only).

For crafters: crafting items on request or to put up for consignment.

3. Each item in game should have a minimum monetary value assigned to it. Not that it would fetch that at a pawnie as pawning is only for non usable items and raw resources. But for calculating total cost to build something in game including transport costs, wear and tear of machines, ...

4. Moneysinks:
a. porting costs money, the further the distance to port the more money it costs.
b. porting with cargo disks is possible for all disks. Type of disk and load of disk and distance of port make up the price.
c. recall to nearest shrine with disk is possible: again at a price.
d. tax on consigment already in game.
Base tax is 25%, for empire based consigners.
Base tax for player owned consigners: 20% total of which Tier of consigner dictates level of return for the player.
Tier I to V: gives 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10% of consigment fee going to the player and in sequence, 10, 12, 14, 16 and 18% goes to the empire.
e. item decay
For adventuring: wear and tear by each use. Balanced so that each item can stay for about 6 levels with a player before it is used up, including field based repair and recharging.
Complete restore is only possible by crafters.
For crafting:
The empire has basic machines at it disposal which requires a fee to use based on item made.
Player based machines also have a usage fee but again part of this fee goes to the player owning the machine. % of return based on Tier.
Player based machines have wear and tear: repairable by construction workers.
f. Indestructible items:
Can be done be an enormous quest: which takes up 100 hours of play time. And including the need for lots of player made items. Indestructible items are also attuned. Each player can only have 2 indestructible items at any given time. Indistructible items can be given to the Museum owned by the Empire. Players can buy this items of fame at 1 gold or more.

g. Attuned items, Items of Tier IV and up should be attuned. Unattuning them should require a fee payable to the Empire.

h. building permits: for each machine, house, lair, ... you would need a 1 time building permit. Permit prices depending on space already in use on the plot. For first 5 squares 1 silver per square, for next 5 squares 4 silver per square, for next 10 squares 10 silver per square, ...

5. Roads travel times and maintenance.
Roads should come in tiers and should be buildable buy crafters (community projects). Each tier gives a different speed.

No road: 50, dirt pad: 62, cobble road: 75, Paved road: 87 and 2way roads: 100.
Roads are ownable: meaning each construction profession can contribute items to upgrade a road, each crafter can contribute to the upkeep of a road.
A road has to be maintained or it falls back to a previous Tier.
Each real life month a status is made of all roads: the traffic it has seen. Who maintained it. And how much items where contributed to the maintenance. Each player that contributed is payed a sum of money by the Empire (minimum prices come in handy here). If maintenance is sufficient a road keeps it status. Usage ditcates Tier status. Maintenance rises of course with Tier.

6. Drop rates of items should fluctuate depending on total amount of raw coin in the hands of the player base. The more money the lower the drop rates, which should drive market prices up.

7. Item crafting quest bulletin board system:
Players should be able to put out a request for a specific item to be crafted by a player.
Crafters then can pick up to 5 items on which they can work.
Time for delivery is set by the player requesting the item.
The requester puts up the money offered for the item up front. Asking prices are based on optimum minimum fees for all the needed resources.

8. Towns:
Towns should be able to have benefits, crafting centers, portals, shrines, taverns, ...
A voting system is needed for major, treasurer, ...
Towns should be able to set taxes, places beautification (trees, plazas, gazebos, ...)

Salis

[Sigi]

A working economy following which system?

Making it harder to make / obtain things is not on my wishlist.

[Cheopis]

Salis, increasing the raw materials needs to create items would be extremely destructive to the economy. As the economy stands right now, storage silos are big enough to hold the materials to make a large number of items. If raw materials needs were raised, storage space would be even tighter. I don't think most crafters would mind if each manufactured item actually took a while to make, but significantly increasing the amount of raw materials required to create items would mean that high level folks would be required to spend a LOT more time when they agree to help lower level characters, and lower level folks would spend hours collecting the materials for a sword and shield. While this might be realistic in some ways, one must also realize that our Avatars live in a much faster world than we do - time for them is faster than time for us.

If anything, I would say that reducing the materials required to make items, while making each creation take more time, and give more exp, would be better. This doesn't address any of your other points, but it seemed the most dangerous thing that you said.

[Salis]

Well I guess I still am thinking in the JIT system.
Just in time delivery: as in no stocks.
The silos could be changed. To act a bit like standard cargo disks. Depending on the tier up to five different items could be stocked in them.
Secondly I don't think that you should stock raw resources, but processed ones. In this way this wouldn't change a whole lot. Ofcourse you don't have stock to provide they entire shard of bronze swords at once. But that is the whole point.
And collecting times. Lairshaping takes a whole lot of time to finish a few items. And that is fine by me. Equipment should mean something. Building a lair is an acomplishment, so should getting your sword, your chainmail armor, ...

I think my system would lead to people focussing on 1 or 2 crafting professions, it would not hamper soloing at all. But working with many on one item would provide benefits. Each has its task. With a craft item request system in place you could delegate the crafting of certain items.
To others. Many could be working at once. Instead of asking for 80 steel bars, you could put out 3 jobs for 20 each and do I yourself.

Also I am merely making suggestions the whole economy is a very delicate balance and needs much finetuning. My given figures are only examples. Not what it really should be.

Salis

[AmonGwareth]

Just a suggestion (and this is totally of the top of my head), but you could always have a third step to create products. Say copper&tin ore -> bronze bars -> bronze ingots. Or something of that sort.

or perhaps instead of a Longsword requiring 12 bronze bars, it required 12 bronze bars and 4 leather strips. that would increase inter-dependency between schools while making it more complex and take longer to make products.

Now, I'm not saying this is a great solution. Especially given that I haven't thought about it except as I type... but it is along the same lines as people have been talking.

increasing the XP would of course go hand-in-hand with a system such as this.

[Cheopis]

We've deviated from the intent of the original poster in our discussions here.

Introducing need isn't a matter of making the crafting process faster or slower, or the difficulty of combines, or anything other than simply creating a need for player crafting items which are actually necessary to purchase more than once.

Repair kits for damaged armor/weapons/tools for instance. Perhaps have all world objects and public structures degrade over time, requiring the application of construction class repair kits. I don't particularly like the idea of player plot structures requiring repair, but I'm not completely against it, provided that the degradation takes a long time before it begins to affect the utility of the structures.

Devices for use in recalling to a highly efficient transport system could also be very nice - but these would need to be NPC sold items, I think.

Putting a money sink or dependency link to crafters in the game is all well and good, but extreme care is needed to avoid changes which will damage the game.

Just say NO to taxes though, please :P

[Fluuoro]

Well, i've been almost 100% crafter since beta and never been rich. Even now i survive with a couple of hundred silvers and don't really feel a need for money sink. I still remember the painful "vielo medicine" and prices skyrocketing, 200-500 silver for expert formulas (from adventurers) , couple of golds for armor V..and then all those rich crafter/adventurers who bougth all the key formulas/techs and cornered the market for a couple of months...i suppose that it was fun for them...i lost some friends who quit the game due to insane prices and rampant greed. Doing the same for master formulas...is bad. Personally i don't think economy is broken, simply because there isn't a real economy..it's a game. I craft for fun and when i need some silvers i pawn a bit or build paid work. If you play on Unity and really need a money sink just tell me, i will be your P.M.S. (Personal Money Sink)...i'm really good at spending money.

[Frith-Rae]

Though I do realize that at the "top end" some players are "rich"...I also think that the number of "rich" players to the number of "getting by" players is really a SMALL Percentage of the game overall.

Esp. looking at what was spent for dragon lairs, and how few dragons actually were "rich" so that they could get their best slot.

The problem with such discussion is that we have undefined terms, and what may seem to you like "too much money to sit on" may not seem that way to another.

The problem with forcing extra expenses on EVERYONE - wether through taxes, armor or weapon decay, MORE items we have to purchase from NPCs that we can't just hunt (we already have some...too exorbitant for most to just go pick up whenever) - is that it sure does what you want for those who NEED money sinks, but screws over the rest of the player base who doesn't.

I've been in this game since a month after release, the only time i was "rich" was when I farmed consistently for TWO MONTHS (together with my dragon mate, so that's x2), to afford my primo location lair and I STILL needed donations of several gold in order to win it. (bows humbly to all who helped).

Since that time I've been crafting on it, I can't earn money. I have a woping 200 some odd silver that a lovely friend donated to me cuz I'm broke .

I am AGAINST Taxes and Armor Decay. Period. I am against anything introduced across the board, like that, that has not been in place since the beginning.

Armor Decay may have worked from the start, before receipes became so dependent on HUNDREDS of drop/forced Vielo purchase items, but now - you've GOT To be kidding?

It took me straight WEEKS of CONSTANT grinding to get the necessary components for my teir V armor, (if not months), the same for craft scales, the same will be needed for my spells. (though I know those wouldn't decay).

To then implement armor decay AFTER requiring what is an exhorbitant amount of time for us nonrich players to hunt down our components - is ridiculous. What's the point then of spending Weeks of nonstop grinding on components if then that means I either need to pay an upkeep to keep them in top shape, or that I have to turn around in 2 months and do it AGAIN?!

It works in WoW - where for 90% of the items in game it can take very little effort to build and fix up.

This craft system is entirely different. Armor decay at this point, for players who already scrimp and save and adverture their butts off to get the armor in the first place, is just a slap in the....face.

Weapons might be different, I am a dragon I no not what it takes to get nifty weapons. If its much easier then perhaps decay would be ok. Course then there would be the question of what would dragons have that would be complimentary to weapon decay (claw decay?? (boggles)).

I'm all about fluff money sinks though!! Nothing forced, nothing giving such advantages that other players realize that its almost a "need", but fluff fluff fluff - go ahead and charge. Tant's ideas were great.

[Aamer Khan]

Ok, let me define what I see as the problems...

In the current system, Adventurers can still make very good money, not only from loot drops, but from selling trophies, comps, and loot. Some lvl 100 mobs drop 12+silver, and I'm told the dragon rift mobs drop even more. Comps he can simply PB, or sell to other players for better coin. Trophy quests give exp and coin, or you can just sell the trophies.

So, the only thing holding an adventurer back from having 2-3 gold is effort and time. To me, this says that the adventurer ( biped or dragon ) is now set as the means for wealth to enter the system.

The crafters USED to be able to farm the PB for vast amounts of coin. I was able to rack up well over 6 gold just from geostone clay to prove it could be done. Now however, the most I can hope to make from selling crafted items to a t5 PB is less than 20 silver, then I must sell the next load to another PB. I can make things for other players it's true. I can consign bars/bricks/orbs, etc... The only problem is that there are already too many others that can make the very same things for themselves. So the best I can hope for, is convience buys from somebody too busy to gather themselves. The majority of players are high level multiclassed crafters/adventurers.

So the says to me that even though Horizons is 50% craft centric, crafters bring little wealth into the system, and too many don't need anyone else to survive. There is no real economy, since there is no need. No reason to craft except make for yourself.

Realize, that you don't need pain to have need. I need to recall with my disk, so I'm willing to pay. I need to mine without golems smashing me since I'm a lvl 90 miner, but a 16 cleric... I will happily pay to have a non-aggro shield. I need to have seating in my t4 guild house, so i'm more than willing to Pay the empire for statium seating.

So, two directions lay open before us. ( as I see it )

1. Do what is necessary to balance the two sides ( crafters vs adventureres ) and make them interdependant. Create a need for the two sides to interact. Otherwise, the craft side will continue to suffer. ( do we see any pure crafters in this game anymore? )

2. Do nothing to fix the economy, but instead do away with it all together, and let everyone simply have fun doing what they like. No portal costs, port and recall with all disks, reduce the resources needed to build anything, and make all finished products require only a single resource ( like boards ). Remove money from the game totally, and make all trades be barters.

Of course, if they take choice 2, then leveling will speed up, players will reach the cap much quicker, and they will move on sooner. But then again, if they can keep a steady stream of new players coming in, that could work...

[AmonGwareth]

Choice 2 is not an option in my opinion.

[Tantalyr]

If, and I do mean if, there is any problem with the game's so-called "economy," it stems in my view not from lack of "needs," but ultimately from one of the unique--and much treasured--facets of the game: unlimited multiclassing. When a player can make any item, and can build any structure, that he wishes--through the time and effort spent to work up any number of crafting classes--there is simply no need for that player to rely on others to make anything for him. At most, if he has no adventuring skills whatsoever he might interact with adventurers for tech components, but that's all.

Some folks, like yours truly, play every MMO with a revulsion to the notion of having to rely on other players for anything. We like to ultimately become completely self-sufficient, not only to meet our own requirements but to furnish others with items or structures they cannot make themselves. And whether I choose to charge any coin at all for those items, or barter them for services or other goods, is nobody's affair but my own.

That's why the Holy Fluff works. It's nifty pixels that no player can make. It's nifty pixels that no player is required to have, much less spend coin on. It's nifty pixels that are a tried and true gold sink since, if done well, most if not all players are going to want (not need) them.

For example, most folks want to change their characters' appearances from time to time just for variety's sake. Charge 'em some healthy Imperial quatloos for letting them do so. I'll guarantee you that you'll see a ton of coin flushed out of the economy every month.

Or implement some nifty house/plot/lair deco that cannot be crafted. Plunk down a bagful of coins at the Imperial Statuary and erect statues on your plot/lair, or busts in your home. Visit the Imperial Lawn and Garden Shop and pick up some rose bushes to plant on your lawn, or ivy to cover your house and walls with. Call on the Imperial House and Wall Refurbishers and change the exterior of your house, shop or walls to obsidian or marble.

In sum, don't change multiclassing (in crafting at least). Don't implement something like taxes that screws over the casual and poorer players, and simply irritates the few wealthy ones. Don't implement needs. Implement wants. Implement the Holy Fluff . . . .