Improve the multiclassed adventurer experience

[Algernon]

Hi There,

I've recently rejoined the world of Istaria (Order) and have been enjoying myself much more than I had expected. Since my return I have begun working on another class, spiritist.

Algernon is not what many would now consider heavily multiclassed (judging by some of the ratings i've seen wandering about recently)

The schools that Alger has at the moment are:

Spiritist 40 (current class)
Knight of Creation 100
Battle Mage 100
Healer 100
Mage 100
Warrior 100
Cleric 23
Monk 10

With a current lvl Spiritist 40/Rating 119 I am finding that I can manage to level at a rate that is at least as quick as I would be managing if it were my first class, though to achieve this I am forced to fight mobs far above what would be possible with 40 lvls of spiritist.

I will manage to get to 100 spiritist over time but I don't feel that I yet have a feel for what it's truly like or about to be a spiritist. My ability to multistrike etc mobs with my stick of bashing far exceeds that of my Spiritist spells at the moment and I don't feel that I will have had as much fun or value out of the Spiritist Class as I would if I had started the class with a lower rating.

I love multiclassing to death and am not particularly interested in starting an alt character to begin training Spiritist from rating 0. I look forward to completing the class and discovering the new facets that it will add to Algers game. The interaction of multiple classes in a character is imho a great strength of Horizons and I realy enjoy the fact that you can get a group together and decide which class you will take out for a particular hunting party. The ability to experience a multitude of playstyles with the one character is superb.

HOWEVER: Leveling a multiclassed character can be a drudgery that detracts from the gameplay experience of the class that you are levelling. Leveraging existing skills is fine but I often don't feel that I am playing the role of a (in this case) Spiritist.

I suggest that a ritual or quest of amnesia (insert better name here) be introduced that allows you to forget for a time your previously learned training so that you can experience playing a class with a much lower rating but also without the benefit of those skills, abilities & stats. You could take the indigo pill (or whatever) and go back to being a Young player. It would be cool to head back to New Trismus and experience all of the fantastic new content that has been added.

I don't think that this would/could be exploited to create an easier path to uber multiclassed godhood and may indeed be a more difficult way to level a character. I am sure though that It would add to the enjoyment of many players who find that adding additional classes to a character is something to be endured rather than enjoyed.

NB: What I am suggesting is different from the forgetting thing that allows you to permanently untrain a skill. I want to retain all of my classes.

Some ideas on possible implentations;

• Allow players to perform a task or quest for the trainer of each of the skills that they wish to TEMPORARILY forget. This would allow the player to remove all benefit derived from the class and take away a proportion of their stats in return for a comensurate drop in rating. You could either make this for a fixed duration or allow the player to return to the trainer whenever they liked to regain their knowledge and strength. Maybe a quest could be required to remember what was lost.

• Allow players to perform a ritual or quest that removes all prior knowledge TEMPORARILY so that they begin at rating 1 or whatever their current class is at. This would probably best be done with a fixed committment of two to four weeks during which time the player may not regain use of his/her previous skills/abilities/stats.

What do you think? Would this make adventuring more fun for you? If you were to implement something like this how would you go about it? What kind of quests, rituals etc would be involved (if any)? Would it be diffrerent per race?

Algernon.

[AA0]

So you want a system that makes it easier to level and gain way more power over time without the same effort others have put in?

[Algernon]

So you want a system that makes it easier to level and gain way more power over time without the same effort others have put in?

I don't think that this would be the case AAO. The intent of this suggestion (and hopefully the effect) is to allow players the option to experience the class that they are playing as it was originally designed to be played. At the moment I don't have much of an idea what spirit bolt or eth parox is really like because it's fairly much useless against the mobs that you need to fight at this rating. You cannot kill a lvl 60 mob with a lvl 1 spell so it is impossible to level using purely the skills from that class. You must rely on previously gained skills rather than learning how to use the ones that you're meant to be training.

My memory from 800 odd days ago is bound to be a little unreliable but I don't recall the first 100 levels as being particularly easy. I do remember them being more fun though. If the rating system is correctly doing it's job (which I think it is) then it should be no easier to gain with rating 0-100 than it is with higher ratings and more skills etc.

I've seen the most powerful player that I know become less involved in the game (to it's detriment) because he/she cannot participate in a group without the xp going utterly spaz. I think that this suggested change would allow us all to have more fun.

I detest changes in games that diminish the value of peoples efforts. I left UO after many years when they trashed resistance etc in favor of jewellery with Age of Sorrows.

Is there anything that you can contribute that would help this suggestion to work in a way that you would see as fair?

Algernon.

[Algernon]

Hey Kumu,

I think that David's vision has alredy been realised in a way. My experience of HZ is that I can do just this. There are other skills that contribute but if I change into healer then there are also (imho) commensurate disadvantages such as the crap armor that come into play.

As a multiclassed character there's a wonderful array of tradeoffs that you need to evaluate when selecting a current class. The abilities that become available to you and your access to different types of weapons armors and abilities seem to be relatively well balanced. This is evidenced by the fact that character templates do not seem to exist in HZ and that each character has (or seems to) a different mix of skills that they bring to battle.

Multiclassing as it is, is brilliant imho. It's the fact that you are not able to fully experience the class that you are playing at higher ratings that I am attempting to address.

If you are not able to use the abilities of your current class to progress then what is the point. There is a great deal of fun to be had in experiencing the differing gameplay styles that relate to each of the adventurer classes in HZ which is currently diluted with every additional class that you have, purely because you need to be balanced against other players.

What I suggest is, I hope, a way to bypass this in an equitable way so that higher level characters can continue to have fun experiencing new classes by using the skills of those classes rather than being forced to fall back on existing skills.

I love the way that multiclassing works as a higher level character and don't think that this needs to change. I do think that a respite from the demands of a higher AR to allow people to participate as their current class would benefit the game though.

Algernon.

[Cheopis]

So you want to experience new classes as if they were truly your only class. I don't see where this would be a real problem, provided that the Amnesia also included a significant exp reduction based on your rating, or perhaps no exp at all. You might not want to use such a feature to powerlevel a class, but at least some others most definitely will.
Honestly I don't like it, I don't see where it would be harmful if implemented well, but I don't like it because if implemented poorly it would be exploitable, and even if implemented well, your character would have to be brain damaged to do it!
Think about it, you have this incredibly talented adventurer, they can melee, they can cast magic of many types, they are masters of several classes, and yet they would _voluntarily_ go down to the local Lobotomy Shop to have some of that knowledge removed? (even if temporarily) I don't see it. When you fight, you fight to win.
Your Avatar would be screaming foul curses at you if it knew what you were trying to do to them :P

[Algernon]

So you want to experience new classes as if they were truly your only class. I don't see where this would be a real problem, provided that the Amnesia also included a significant exp reduction based on your rating, or perhaps no exp at all. You might not want to use such a feature to powerlevel a class, but at least some others most definitely will.
Honestly I don't like it, I don't see where it would be harmful if implemented well, but I don't like it because if implemented poorly it would be exploitable, and even if implemented well, your character would have to be brain damaged to do it!
Think about it, you have this incredibly talented adventurer, they can melee, they can cast magic of many types, they are masters of several classes, and yet they would _voluntarily_ go down to the local Lobotomy Shop to have some of that knowledge removed? (even if temporarily) I don't see it. When you fight, you fight to win.
Your Avatar would be screaming foul curses at you if it knew what you were trying to do to them :P

Hi Cheopis,

Maybe rather than Amnesia it could be considered a rite of fortitude allowing the player to focus on his/her training. I don't think Algernon would mind this self sacrifie.

It would be interesting to know if the ratio of lvls gained vs playtime increases or decreases as character ratings rise. I wonder if the folks at Tulga have enough data to provide these stats.

I think that the option to reset all skills and stats other than those derived from the current class to lvl 0 for a fixed time would be the easiest to implement without the risk of it being exploited.

Mick.

[Algernon]

*** bump ***

So how about this then. I've recently (often) thought that I'd like to come back and play (once Vista support happens) but am not sure whether I can hack the AR misery.

Is there any actual reason technical or gameplay wise that this couldn't or shouldn't be implemented?

Alger.

PS: Where did Kumu's post go to? Was he made persona non grata?

[Kumu Honua]

There was an incident in the past where I decided that I had nothing to do with the forum. I had all my posts deleted. Wholesale.

There is the same gameplay reason as when you first suggested this idea.

[Algernon]

Hey Kumu,

Long time no speak. Glad to see that you're still about. What is the "same gameplay reason" that you refer to?

Alger.

[Kumu Honua]

Read my signature.

As a biped, your only enemy is time.

[Justa Mirage]

Suggestion:

Go to Starbucks (or any local coffee house) and watch them stick coffee beans into this little machine and turn it on...

[Algernon]

Hmmmm,

How about you read my previous post then comment upon the actual content, including my previous response to you. The "read my signature." response is on the "I know you are but what am I?" level and is quite frankly insulting.

Tah,

Alger.

[Kumu Honua]

I read your post. I commented on the content. You just don't like my answer just like you didn't like my answer when you first posted this so many moons ago.

[Algernon]

I read your post. I commented on the content. You just don't like my answer just like you didn't like my answer when you first posted this so many moons ago.

Nice. Do you have any specific objections beyond a general disdain for bipeds? Do you believe that this would make it easier to level? Do you think that this would make the game more/less fun/exploitable? What specifically are you saying?

Alger.

[Kumu Honua]

O.K. I'll bite.

Bipeds have had it easy for many eons in Horizons. The ability to multi-class and continually add power and never suffer any negative effects beyond increasing time for adding yet more power.

It was ridiculous in 2006, it was ridiculous in 2007 and then I quit and the only thing that has changed is you can no longer cast Bomb V, IV, III in rapid succession.

You can still take a class to overcome the shortcomings of another class. Take Healer for massive and many heals, take druid for cyclone and stuns, take monk for evasion, you can even take crafting classes to increase your attributes to maximum.

Just look for the thread about "Master of Flame". Notice what he accomplishes. A dragon even before the loss of triple teched vengeance and shield of gold would be hard pressed to achieve the same feat.

Bipeds are ridiculous, multi-classing is ridiculous. Nothing has changed. Therefore any request to make it even easier to multi-class is just as ridiculous.

The absolute only thing that bipeds have to fight is time. It's the only downside to multi-classing.

[Algernon]

O.K. I'll bite.

Bipeds have had it easy for many eons in Horizons. The ability to multi-class and continually add power and never suffer any negative effects beyond increasing time for adding yet more power.

It was ridiculous in 2006, it was ridiculous in 2007 and then I quit and the only thing that has changed is you can no longer cast Bomb V, IV, III in rapid succession.

You can still take a class to overcome the shortcomings of another class. Take Healer for massive and many heals, take druid for cyclone and stuns, take monk for evasion, you can even take crafting classes to increase your attributes to maximum.

Just look for the thread about "Master of Flame". Notice what he accomplishes. A dragon even before the loss of triple teched vengeance and shield of gold would be hard pressed to achieve the same feat.

Bipeds are ridiculous, multi-classing is ridiculous. Nothing has changed. Therefore any request to make it even easier to multi-class is just as ridiculous.

The absolute only thing that bipeds have to fight is time. It's the only downside to multi-classing.

Hey Kumu,

I think that I recall you having a biped character sometime in the past though I may be in error (it's been a long time). What you've said above appears to reflect a dissatisfaction with the differences between Biped and Dragon kind. I'm not sure (though expect that you do) if you realise that there are severe penalties that are involved in gaining additional classes. I'm not suggesting that there should be an easier way to level multiclassed characters, just a more fun way.

I expected that the level cap would be raised years ago and that this might count against those with heavily multiclassed playeers. Perhaps this is the long term answer to any Dragon/Biped inequities that may exist.

Given that the fun in the game (when I've played previously) has centered around levelling classes, the near exponential increase in difficulty with increased AR for each class equates to an equal decrease in the fun as you go along.

If you read the o.p. hopefully you will agree that I'm not suggesting anything that will diminish the accomplishments of others who have achieved in any of the classes, rather that the fun of learning a new class will be restored.

Algernon.

[Kumu Honua]

You expected the level cap to be raised. Unfortunately nearly nothing was done for 2 years due to the owner of Horizons selling the rights to the most incompetent collection of idiots that ever did grace the planet earth.

Nothing has changed until semi recently and not a whole lot that was earth shattering other than the change to death points and the linking of timers on spells of the same type.

Therefore, the same answer, 2+ years later is the same because nothing has changed.

I still say that there is nothing for a biped to fight other than time. Your request takes away that fight.

[Algernon]

You expected the level cap to be raised. Unfortunately nearly nothing was done for 2 years due to the owner of Horizons selling the rights to the most incompetent collection of idiots that ever did grace the planet earth.

Nothing has changed until semi recently and not a whole lot that was earth shattering other than the change to death points and the linking of timers on spells of the same type.

Therefore, the same answer, 2+ years later is the same because nothing has changed.

I still say that there is nothing for a biped to fight other than time. Your request takes away that fight.

Hey Kumu,

I don't see that it would take away the time factor at all. I don't think that my first class was quicker or easier than the subsequent ones. I do have a lasting attachment to KNOC though and I've noticed that as I've achieved additional classes (I realise that I'm likely an under achiever these days) I've been less familiar or aware of teh native abilities/craft of the class that I'm studying/levelling due to the fact that it's easier/necessary that I leverage skills that I've gained from other classes.

Getting to lvl 100 KNOC which was my first class was at least as difficult as attaining lvl 100 Dragon (imho). Gaining additional levels was not so much more difficult as it was silly with a mage relying on whacking enemies with a stick rather than zapping them to death as would be appropriate. Each additional class increases the disconnect until yoiu (I) find youself in the situation where the skills provided by a particular class are useless and you have no idea how that class should work.

You're opposed to multiclassing full stop. I disagree. I love multiclassing though I would like to be able to achieve new classes using the abilities of the class itself rather than being forced to rely on skills gained from other classes.

Alger.

[Kumu Honua]

How can it *NOT* take away from the time factor? You are asking to remove temporarily a class in order to experience that class at a normal rating (Which means normal experience gain). Thus you will not have to kill level 100 creatures to get that 5 experience. You will get full experience.

Again you misunderstand my position.

I am not opposed to multi-classing. I am opposed to multi-classing with no negatives. I am opposed to simply increasing power at the expense of nothing more than time. I am opposed to reducing that expense of time.

Yes. When you multi-class you must use your original class to buttress your newly weak class. Additionally, you cannot simply "Start from 0" you must kill monsters that are higher level because of the reduced experience.

In my opinion, you will have to put up with that minor inconvenience for the ridiculous power that you will get in the future.

You are less familiar with some skills that you don't use as much? Again. Simply time. You have all the time in the world to find out which skills you can mix and match to the most effectiveness.


However I will not discuss it anymore. I don't play anymore. I just read my name and felt compelled to state that I was not run off or disavowed and the deletion of my old posts was due to my own will.

[Vlisson]

Getting to lvl 100 KNOC which was my first class was at least as difficult as attaining lvl 100 Dragon (imho).

i dont think so (if im right than the knoc have been a uber class because of no t5 stuff ingame at the first time in hz (knoc can summon a t5/t6 sword?)

but to be ontopic

i like your idea. to start with a new school, do the class quests, use new spells/abilities is like playing a new great game

its a new experience

BUT its a great doom if you make multiclassing more easy than it is now

ok if you have 6 or more schools on lvl 100 then it can get more difficult but hey i dont think that should be the norm

IF your idea will considered then it should get a real disadvantage if you ignore the "normal" rating multiclass handicap

i know how it feels to do all stuff you want with your main, its great that hz supports this, even if this is the greatest problem (in my eyes) on the same time (self supporting chars, never need another one to achieve their goals)