Ouch.....

[Rocinante]

The primary skill system does not stop you from crafting items. It simply stops you from gaining XP for illogical actions. Nothing more. Unless you were cheating before (IE, leveling gatherer from 1-20 on one load of Yew), then you will see nothing but improvements in your leveling time. If you were cheating, well, I guess it sucks to be you then doesn't it?

I don't understand your points at all.

No one said the primary system would stop any one from crafting any items.

Its not illogical to make metal bars to be used for potions. Matter of fact its required! Morever its not a class skill therefore another class is required to craft them. Since you don't already have the skill your not going to gain levels fast as you have suggested.

Now you accuse me of cheating???

I hardly think your personal attacks on me are called for and I find it in bad taste.

Rocinante

[Henry Redacre]

ooooh, WHAAA!!!!! self sufficiency! How am I supposed to be completely self sufficient in this multiplayer game NOW? It's gonna be sooooooo much harder to play by myself and just chat with my guildies, rather than playing with them.....

*sigh*


Look, this game wasn't ever designed to allow for easy self sufficiency. Sure, it's possible now, but it's not *easy*. And you know what? It's gonna change. And with that change, it will make it somewhat harder to be entirely self sufficient. And thats just plain gonna be the way it is. Period.

In game, I'm as self sufficient as I can be. I've been playing since Launch Day One. My highest level is, as of just recently, 50. Thats right, 50. I don't have multiple 100 schools. I don't even have ONE 100 school. Why? Because I play how I like to play. (So really, take all this with whatever grain of salt you wish.) Slow and steady, and I only log in when I'm able to. I'm unguilded. I don't rely on guildies or anyone else to do anything else for me. I try to do it all on my own. Hell, when I originally started, all I ever wanted to do was make my own armor. But then, I needed tools, so became a Blacksmith. But I also needed a way to mine better, so I became a Miner. Then I needed a way to carry all that ore and material, so I became a Tinkerer. Then I needed orbs for my cargo gear, so I picked up Enchanter, and so on. I've got every ******** school anyone could need, and it was all in support of my original intent: Armorer. I mean, I've even got all 5 construction schools leveled pretty well too, simply because I needed some silos and a place to work as an Armorer.


My point being, it's already very very possible to be as entirely self-sufficient as you want to be. Is it about to get slightly more difficult, ore time consuming? Yup. Sure is. But if you're already majorly concerned about being self-sufficient, then I can't see how you can be concerned about how quickly you do it. It's obviously not a race against everyone else. That's just silly, and I don't think anyone is silly here, are they? No, so it can't be a race. Also, since being self-sufficient is already kinda difficult (or at the least, very time consuming) to begin with, so the expectation of it being time consuming already exists. If what you're primarily concerned about is remaining self-sufficient, and overcoming the obstacles put in place so that at the end of the day you can look back at everything you did, and say "I did this all on my own." and know that you mean it without lying, then whats a few extra hours in the long run? Doesn't it just make it that much sweeter when you DO look back on it and say you've doen it all on your own?

Of course, if you're just complaining for the sake of complaining, and whining about how "Oh, but now it's going to take me longer to do something." Then that's your prerogative as well. Just don't *expect* anyone else to pay attention, or really care at all. Because really, it's a ******** social game in the end anyway. If you're purposefully trying to avoid the social aspect, then it just got harder. Go play Oblivion, and you won't have to worry about any social aspects at all. However, if you'd like to continue playing a (say it with me now) MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER game, well then, you just might have to mingle around a little bit with some of those other players.

Bottom line is though, this all comes back to YOU. What are YOUR expectations, and WHY do YOU have them? Are YOUR expectations not being met? Well, are YOUR expectations reasonable for the scenario in which you are placing them? Now one other thing to rememer, this isn't YOUR game. YOU are just a visitor here. So if YOU can no longer play the way YOU enjoy playing, then it comes time to either change, or walk away.

*climbs down off the soapbox and walks away from the thread*

[Rocinante]

My point being, it's already very very possible to be as entirely self-sufficient as you want to be. Is it about to get slightly more difficult, ore time consuming? Yup. Sure is.

Thank you for amoungst your numerous contradictions in your holier than thou diatribe you ever so elegantly prove my point. Bravo!

Rocinante

[Henry Redacre]

My point being, it's already very very possible to be as entirely self-sufficient as you want to be. Is it about to get slightly more difficult, ore time consuming? Yup. Sure is.

Thank you for amoungst your numerous contradictions in your holier than thou diatribe you ever so elegantly prove my point. Bravo!

Rocinante

Yeah, and my point being, so what? It takes a little longer. Big deal. You gonna cry about it since it's gonna take a little longer?

[Rocinante]

Yeah, and my point being, so what? It takes a little longer. Big deal. You gonna cry about it since it's gonna take a little longer?

I was simply replying to AAO's post.

Not to mention he completely doesn't understand the primary skill system for crafting, everyone thinks its a nerf, when its really a boost

I do think in the case I presented in prior posts, the one that you agree with me on, that it is indeed a nerf.

I don't see any reason why you need to continue to direct attacks at me personally when the topic is about a game system. Please keep your off topic non-constructive and/or negative comments and/or questions to yourself.
Thank You.

Rocinante

[Henry Redacre]

I was simply replying to AAO's post.

Oh. My mistake then. I was somehow confused when you, y'know, quoted my post. The fault is clearly on me there for not realizing you were directing your statements toward someone else entirely.

I do think in the case I presented in prior posts, the one that you agree with me on, that it is indeed a nerf.

Okay, perhaps the miscommunication here is the definition of the word nerf. To me, 'nerf' means something 'bad' that is done to players via adjustments to the game itself.

To me, taking a little longer in order to achieve and/or maintain self-sufficiency isn't a nerf, because it isn't a bad, or negative thing. It doesn't make anything bad or worse for any player. In fact, what it does, is set things straight within the game. It creates greater incentive to interact with other players within the game world (which clearly is the design of any MMO, particularly one that from the beginning claimed to have wanted Adventurer-Crafter interdependency), while also providing a possible stimulus to the economy by placing more of a demand on a player's time. It generates a decision for the player - "Do I choose to spend more of my time out here in the field gathering this stuff that isn't going to garner me any XP (and therefore, can *possibly* be construed as not giving any benefit). OR, do I choose to fork over some coin to another player who is willing to stand out here in the field and gather this stuff for me since they DO get experience from it, and it also frees up more of my time to focus on the tasks that generate XP for my chosen school which I want to gain more levels in."

Thats a choice, and a very good and positive choice to make, as some player somewhere benefits from either of the possible choices.

"Oh! Wait! But what about the players that like being self-sufficient? Isn't this type of change bad for them?"

Personally, no, I don't think so. The desire for self-suficiency is typically generated by a lack of desire to want to rely on anyone else (y'know the "If you want something done right...." crowd) and also from a desire to overcome the challenges of taking the road less travelled. Playing against the grain can be rewarding in it's own right, for sure. Especially if you're able to do it and succeed. That's exactly why I play the way I do. The difference with me though, is that I don't whine about playing against the grain.

I don't see any reason why you need to continue to direct attacks at me personally when the topic is about a game system. Please keep your off topic non-constructive and/or negative comments and/or questions to yourself.
Thank You.

Rocinante

You're right again. My bad. This was all totally off-topic. I should have taken this to an entirely different forum altogether most likely, not just a different thread. At least, I should have.... until I spelled everything out, apparently. Because really, this sounds to me like it belongs right here. But I shouldn't have assumed that I didn't need to write it in crayon for anyone to understand.

My sincerest apologies for disrupting the thread, I'm just friggin tired of hearing everyone whining about the positive changes the Devs have been making with this game.

[Henry Redacre]

Anyway, everyone seems so overly focused on the *items* a school requires in order to make their own items. To me, it has nothing to do with the items. It has everything to do with the skill.

It was mentioned previously that metal bars are required for making some potions. Why yes, yes they are. In fact, *mining picks* are required for some potions. Should Alchemists be able to craft mining picks as well? Absolutely not. Why not? Because they don't have the necessary skill to do it. As al alchemist, I'm spending my time trying to figure out how to make potions, and well, alchemy type things. Not trying to figure out how I'm going to make mining picks. That's the job of a blacksmith. I may be able to use the products created by another school for my own products, but that doesn't mean I should be able to make everything I need to be self-sufficient, entirely within the same school.

In the real world, bakers need ovens in order to bake their bread. When was the last time you saw a baker build their own oven, or a bus driver build their own bus? Now, while true, those examples are from the real world, which this game clearly is NOT, still, the precedent (and the expectation) remains the same. I don't see at all where anyone somehow got the impression that everything a school is capable of making should garner positive XP for that school, nor where a school should be able to craft single-handedly everything they need in order to make their own products.

That's just a silly, and improbable expectation as far as I'm concerned.

[Mairynn Nalnair]

Thank you for amoungst your numerous contradictions in your holier than thou diatribe you ever so elegantly prove my point. Bravo!

Rocinante

But he didnt brove your point
He just explained why this change is necesarry.

[AA0]

I still don't understand how the primary skill system has anything to do with alchemist being self sufficient. It doesn't, thats a matter of skills they gain, not the way exp is rewarded. This is no different that tinkerer, except tinks can not make anything at all without several schools to help.

[Rocinante]

Anyway, everyone seems so overly focused on the *items* a school requires in order to make their own items. To me, it has nothing to do with the items. It has everything to do with the skill.

It was mentioned previously that metal bars are required for making some potions. Why yes, yes they are. In fact, *mining picks* are required for some potions. Should Alchemists be able to craft mining picks as well? Absolutely not. Why not? Because they don't have the necessary skill to do it. As al alchemist, I'm spending my time trying to figure out how to make potions, and well, alchemy type things. Not trying to figure out how I'm going to make mining picks. That's the job of a blacksmith. I may be able to use the products created by another school for my own products, but that doesn't mean I should be able to make everything I need to be self-sufficient, entirely within the same school.

In the real world, bakers need ovens in order to bake their bread. When was the last time you saw a baker build their own oven, or a bus driver build their own bus? Now, while true, those examples are from the real world, which this game clearly is NOT, still, the precedent (and the expectation) remains the same. I don't see at all where anyone somehow got the impression that everything a school is capable of making should garner positive XP for that school, nor where a school should be able to craft single-handedly everything they need in order to make their own products.

That's just a silly, and improbable expectation as far as I'm concerned.

From my prior post in this thread (#20)

You are correct alchemist do not get xp for making bars or purified orbs or for tools. I don't expect that to change nor I am suggesting that.

Rocinante

[LaughingOtter]

Again, its not about more alchemist xp. Its about trying be self sufficient and being able to craft the majority of the items. Under the primary skill system it will be harder to achieve.

This is not a massive benefit or a benefit of anykind. Its quite the opposite. If you choose not to see it or believe it, then so be it.

The biggest flaw in your argument is the fact that some classes were designed NOT to be self-sufficient. Alchemist does not get the smelting or metalworking or enchanting skills; why ever would you think the core skills system would or should change that? Tinkerers do not get processing or gathering skills by design. Again, why would you think the core skills system is supposed to change that?

If you want to be self-sufficient in a class that is designed not to be, then you MUST take other classes to fill in that skill gap. This is where the core skills system is going to help you.

If you want to be a tinkerer, you need organic and inorganic processing skills. The means you need to level at least two other classes. Assuming you choose miner & gatherer, if you want to level them, the only way you can do that is by processing resources. Under core skills, you are going to gain MORE XP for that processing than you do now - therefor, less work to get to your desired levels. Then you switch to tinkerer and use the resources you just produced, and you get more XP for making items using the tinkering skill. Again, in core skills, the XP gain is higer, so that means - again - less work.

If you want to be self-sufficient as an alchemist, you need 2-4 additional schools. In order to squeeze every possible XP out of the system, you need miner, blacksmith, gatherer, and enchanter in addition to alchemist. If you do that, and switch class as needed, you'll see all five classes levelling up faster under core skills than they do now.

If no changes are made, you STILL need the same classes to get the same skills. The only difference is that miner and gatherer would not be required in order to capture all possible XP in the case of alchemist - they would simply be useful options.

[Weston]

Interesting discussion, though doubtless it will have little effect on decisions the devs make.

Seems to me, the original school-based crafting system attempted to bridge the gap between a pure school system and a pure skill-based system. Now, having run into some difficulty with that hybrid system, they are attempting to move further from 'skill-based' into the waiting arms of a pure 'school-based' system. For my part, I'd rather have had the opposite, ala Morrowind, as one example.

I'd have preferred raising skills through use. Take smelting. If I make metal bars, I raise smelting. Any other skill which requires the use of metal bars will benefit from my learning to smelt. Do I NEED to smelt? Nope. Do I WANT to pay for every metal bar I use? Definitely nope. Should mining have anything to do with smelting. Nope, the act of digging stuff out of the earth is a skill in and of itself. Each skill should be developed independantly of each other. I go dig rocks. Lots of rocks. I gain skill in mining. That should affect Weaponcrafting, as an example, not at all.

Forms could require (in some cases) combinations of skills, but would usually depend on a single skill, and using the form would/should raise ONLY that skill. Not a 'school' and a commensurate SET of skills.

Now it looks like they still want to 'bundle' skills in schools, but are trying to implement this single MEANINGFUL skill aspect. Bah, humbug. Could all have been avoided by going the other route at the outset. In such a system could a player raise all skills to max. Sure, but difficult and time-consuming. More difficult and time-consuming perhaps than the current OR the proposed system. Took me well over 2 years to max all 19 crafts, and that was my primary goal from the outset.

It'll definitely be interesting to see how long it takes them to install this convoluted modification to the craft system.

Just my two cents, and prolly not all that helpful. *shrugs*

For the record, while there are only 19 schools, there are 40 skills, including Dowsing, Prospecting, and Brewing.

Weston

[Rocinante]

The biggest flaw in your argument is the fact that some classes were designed NOT to be self-sufficient. Alchemist does not get the smelting or metalworking or enchanting skills; why ever would you think the core skills system would or should change that? Tinkerers do not get processing or gathering skills by design. Again, why would you think the core skills system is supposed to change that?

From my prior post in this thread (#20)

You are correct alchemist do not get xp for making bars or purified orbs or for tools. I don't expect that to change nor I am suggesting that.

To be perfectly clear here. I have not now or ever expected or thought of any classes skill sets should change. I am in no way, shape or form speaking of any change in any classes skill set, except to say I am not speaking of any change in any classes skill set. Hopefully between my prior post which I have now have repeated twice and my new statement this is crystal clear. However just in case, I am not talking about changing any skills for any class, not now nor in the past.

If you want to be self-sufficient as an alchemist, you need 2-4 additional schools. In order to squeeze every possible XP out of the system, you need miner, blacksmith, gatherer, and enchanter in addition to alchemist. If you do that, and switch class as needed, you'll see all five classes levelling up faster under core skills than they do now.

This is wrong.
All you need is alchemist, blacksmith and enchanter. It can be done as you suggest buy leveling 5 classes, however I think that is harder than 3. Under the primary skill system you will no longer get xp for simply making bars as blacksmith you will need to do other activites to gain xp. Thus when making potions that require bars, the blacksmith gains no xp. Where as you currently do. Blacksmith will not level faster, as there is no xp from making bars.

If you don't understand this here is an example:

Under the current system as a blacksmith makes metals bars, the blacksmith gains xp for them. The bars are then made into a potion and the alchemist gains xp. Now under the primary skill system, the blacksmith makes bars and gains no xp. The bars are then made into a potion and the alchemist gains xp.

Please explain to me in my example how is the blacksmith is leveling faster under the primary skill system?


Rocinante

[LaughingOtter]

Under the current system as a blacksmith makes metals bars, the blacksmith gains xp for them. The bars are then made into a potion and the alchemist gains xp. Now under the primary skill system, the blacksmith makes bars and gains no xp. The bars are then made into a potion and the alchemist gains xp.

Well, you skipped the part where the blacksmith makes TOOLS OUT OF THE BARS and gets XP for them.

Under the core skills system, blacksmiths and scholars are the only classes which level by making tools. For a blacksmith, metalworking IS their core skill. Because of that, the XP a blacksmith gains for making tools will be substantially increased. Will it make up for losing the smelting XP? We don't have hard numbers yet, but based on how easy it is to level lairshaper, I'd say "Yes!".

So your example is flawed to begin with. Your objection may or may not have merit with regards straight blacksmith. However, as has been pointed out to you, if you really hate losing the smelting XP, then go miner for it. The way XP is awarded under the core skills system will mean that your overall XP gain in all classes will be higher, if you choose to switch classes as needed to take full advantage of it. If you choose not to do so, then YOU are deciding to throw that XP away. If you choose not to fully utilize a benefit, that does not make it a nerf.

[Alladania]

You don't need the blacksmith for the bars. The blacksmith is to make the tools that go into the potions, such as mining picks.

[Henry Redacre]

*rests forehead on desk*


Okay. It's clear no one is saying that any schools should gain any other skills. Thats fine. Yay.

So, it's also clear that in order for certain schools to be self-sufficient, they will need to augment themselves with additional schools in order to have all the skills they need to make all the items they need. Okay, I think we all agree on this part as well, yes? Good.

Now, in the very specific case that Rocinante has pointed out, yes Blacksmith will level some degree more slowly (personally, I think it's only a teeny bit, but whatever) than it normally would if it got XP for making bars. So, in that particular pudding, the proof is in it.

This, I don't think, was ever in question. At least not by me. My concern was why this is even an issue whatsoever. So it takes a little bit longer to gain a level? So what.

This same pudding, as it were, is the very same thing that helps provide some encouragement to interact with another player, another Blacksmith who is out there making tools as it is, in order to gain levels. An Alchemist approaches that Blacksmith and places an order for some mining picks, since the Alchemist doesn't want to "waste time" by swapping schools all over the place just to do a little bit of mining, so they can make a few measly bars, so they can end up with a handful of mining picks for their potions. The Alchemist considers their time more valuable, and it's worthwhile for them to focus on making strictly Alchemical products.

The Blacksmith goes out and talks to his Miner friend, who is out in the field all day long, making nothing but bars, and making a killing, since they're being paid by the siloful for bars. The Blacksmith tells the Miner that he needs some bars to make some mining picks for an Alchemist. The Miner says sure, as long as they can get some Mining Potions from the Alchemist when they're finished. Faster mining means higher productivity for the Miner, which means more orders filled in less time, which means more money. The Blacksmith is sure they can work that out, so he goes back to make the mining picks from the bars he already has on hand (that his Miner friend gave him earlier), so he can get them out to the Alchemist ASAP.

The Blacksmith gets the picks made, and gets them to the Alchemist in under 5 minutes. Since he already has the materials on hand to make them, all it takes is the clicks of a few buttons, and one port, and it's done. The Alchemist gets the picks, and already has all the other materials she needs (she has a Gatherer friend that she works with) and immediately makes the potions. She gives some coin, and a few potions to the Blacksmith as payment (the coin for the blacksmith, the potions for the Miner), and takes the rest to the consigner. All of this takes a total of a few minutes folks. Thats it. The thing that takes the longest is actually working out the details, and porting. Porting had to be done anyway (and a lot more of it, typically) in order to jockey schools around, get out into the resource fields, drag a diskful back, change schools again, make the picks, etc.

Now, here's the point of this neat little story. And pay attention, because this is important. *grabs the big crayon*

If people are encouraged to work together, in ways such as this, overall, individual levelling will be faster, since more XP is given for actually making the products that the school *should* be making, *AND* because other players are helping out, and sharing the work load, simply doing the things their school would need to do anyway in order to gain levels.

*puts the crayon away*

Now, if you wanted to remain self sufficient, you could bounce around and switch schools and all that happy horsepucky. Chances are, I'll probably still keep doing that myself, to some degree. But because thats my own personal choice, I don't cry about it. I'll tell yuo what though, I'd happily pay someone some coin to fill my silos with bars, or gems, or fabric spools or whatever, just so I didn't have to bother with it. And under that model, no one needs to do anything differently here. In fact, all they have to do is make the products they normally would make in order to gain levels and *GASP* maybe give them to each other, whether it's through barter, or currency exchange. But OH NO! Be Careful! That might spur an ARRGGHH!! *ECONOMY*!!

But no, this primary skill change is just stupid. It's a nerf. No one could ever possibly want it, so it's just going to run people out of the game. And it's not like having an actual economy is going to *attract* anyone to the game, oh no, never. So since this whole thing is just silly anyway, let's strike it from the record altogether.

[Jayne]

*Puts pillow on desk for Henry*

[Henry Redacre]

Well, you skipped the part where the blacksmith makes TOOLS OUT OF THE BARS and gets XP for them.

I'm going to make another assumption here, and assume that Rocinante was referring to certain alchemical products that only require *only* the bars, such as dyes and the like. In which case, the Blacksmith wouldn't be receiving any XP for making the bars.

Of course, why in the world you'd be making bars as a Blacksmith under the primary skill system if you're so dreadfully concerned about squeezing every possible XP out of something, makes no sense to me whatsoever, so I'd be willing to say that the argument is still flawed and self-defeating in that sense. But y'know, that's just me.

[LaughingOtter]

He said "potions". Potions require tools. If he really wanted to level alchy fast, he'd be making gem-based dyes. But, that's getting off-topic...

[Henry Redacre]

He said "potions". Potions require tools.

Ah, very valid point. Color me corrected.

*scribbles on self with his big crayon*