Is grouping to hunt, a bad thing?

[Aamer Khan]

This game is after all, a MMO. It's expected that some mobs or events would require cooperation between players.

In the Nadia thread, one gets the strong sense that many vets and new players alike don't want to consider simple grouping to gather comps or forms. Many seem to feel that we should all be able to easily get all techs gear with little to no risk. Or they seem to feel this is a solo game and there should be no need to gather a group to hunt anything.

Now, excepting the one poster that seems to have a strong need to challenge any of my posts, as if they were a personal afront to this player, Realize that I am NOT talking about "forced grouping"

I am taking about how any of us can, with a bit of effort, get any comps that drop to make our gear fully teched. Vets have all the gear they need. New players from tier 1-4 is where the issues arise. The truly simple answer is to gather a group and go out and hunt till you have all the comps you need. Yes, this could take a few days, but that is also true for vet players even if they are gathering money to take the easy road and buy them.

SO please explain to me why THIS method is such an unpleasent method to consider.

[Aria]

easy...this game does not support grouping, its pointless. Unless you find a friend/guildmate who is willing to help you or needing the same components it is pretty much a waste of time to group for non event related hunts. I can hunt just as fast on my own and get better exp for it..and keep all the loot. And I am not an 'uber' ped, I am a single classed berserker, I don't even have heals. At this point I feel there is very little incentive to group with anyone *shrugs*

[Rhyssa]

Actually, the experience is much better if you group. Sure you get less exp per kill, but you kill a lot faster which means that you actually level faster. Also there's the social aspect of grouping. I find it a lot more fun to hunt in a group than on my own, but that's a personal thing.

To answer Aamer's original post - I completely agree with you.

[walkerglassmire]

From my experience, no, grouping to hunt is not "bad".

I think the bigger point is, "Should we be required to?" A common answer to "that's hard" is "Get a group and go do it".

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm all for community. I LOVE the community here. But I, nor anyone else, should be required to group to earn what they need.

I spent a short amount of time in Rubies of Eventide. I was educated rather quickly that if I didn't have a group, I couldn't do anything. And no one wanted to help a newb.

I've spent a large amount of my time here (and I've been here over 2 years now) working on my own. Some can be done, quite a bit can't. And I'm not talking bout the Uber Event Monsters. Those should need a group. But things like, for example, Slay 40 Winter Wolves. Now, when I did that quest, there was 1 place in the whole world to find them (not sure if that's changed) I could barely kill 1 at a time. (It was the last quest I had to do, so I wasn't just starting the quests). I spent a week trying to finish it, mostly cuz I could get bout 1 wolf by itself every half hour or so. I finally begged help, and 1 adult basically finished the last bout 3/4 of the quest in bout 15 mins. He was somewhere round twice my lvl.

I know I'm rambling a bit, but there feels like a lot of "forced grouping" trying to go on, then they made it so guilds or friends couldn't help each other without starting new characters by making the group xp earned based on the highest leveled groupmate.

I've kinda pettered out now. Guess I don't really agree with anyone. heh

[Solanaceae]

My explanation is that Horizons after all the group nerfs and with all the aggro management problems is not much fun to group in. Also from about level 50 onward, the game mechanics do a great job of drilling into your head that grouping is evil thanks to exp loss without really increasing the speed of grind.

The other problem is that situations arise where you have one person that is trying to get something like twenty veteran skeleton sternums, and you have another person that is working on their lair, and you have a third person that is busy trying to get from 68 to 70 and can't really help anyway, as mobs seek to attack the lowest level person first. We all have around 4 hours to play, and we all want to get something done. Nobody can really help in this kind of situation simply because the kill rate of two people vs T5 WA isn't that much better than one person's kill rate (there just isn't enough skeletons, and because of the linking rules you can't just kill skeletons, you have to kill the whole link). Crafting is a little easier to group with, but apart from some specialized situations you're still basically soloing. Adventure grinding is even worse.

[Varraven]

I will reply to this since a lot of that discussion I was making comments on in that particular thread.

I don't think there's anything wrong with grouping whatsoever, but it should definitely be optional. I realize there are many +s to grouping (easier for one thing, faster and less risk). There are many times, however, when people (like me) play want even more risk by trying it solo. I'm not so much a loner, but perhaps it's my past experiences in grouping (not in this MMORPG) that make it my preferred style.

The comment I made about the components should not require a group to hunt I still stand by as, not only can it be inconvenient to gather a group up to hunt them a lot of times, but these are not really epic quality mobs, events, bosses that would/should take a lot more effort or players to achieve a greater reward. I simply feel if somebody is putting forth the effort to hunt their own components, then it should pay off eventually and (in my opinion) should not have to require more than one. But that's just my thought.

[Vlisson]

groups are a fine thing but i dont think that this happen regularly

Most groups are 2 players. you dont need more for the most mobs

but the rare soloplay at release got very common

maybe because of less players and you need more effort to find a group at all.

but my reason is: why to group if you get the job done without a group too, dont have to share, dont need to care about the others if they pull/attack/fight not good enough

[Justa Mirage]

Ninja looters

OK I have my 5 comps..... I hear mom calling me, my dog needs a walk, the cable guy is here, a nuclear bomb went off outside my door!.... I have to leave. Good luck getting your comps!

Teaming up with people is a fine art.... there are some that will rip you off blind and never share what ever comes off of mobs.... then there are those that will not loot a corpse and usually mutually agree on some looting rules or "right of way" when it comes to gathering loot, comps, and trophies. Those are the players I love as they know that the loot system isn't the greatest but will share the mediocre stuff that comes off of them.

Also, most of the time the "person on the team" is like 100 uber ped or dragon and the XP for killing level <nn> mobs just isn't there.. you get your parts, but it would go faster if you had 2 killing things at once

[Balkor]

Aside from the previous points made, I'd like to point out one other.

Just getting a group together. It's pretty much at the level of "pulling teeth" just to get one other to join you, but say you are successful for the sake of argument. Then begins "The Wait". Even though the hunt was scheduled (let's say it's a guild hunt), Zandy had decided to spend some time crafting before the "Event", and is still out in the middle of BFE, and insists on dragging the disk in. T'pau forgot to get his gear before logging off last night, and he's 5 mins late logging in anyways...so we must wait for him as well. Pornar's wife has just called him afk to help with something. Vikahn is on the phone. Tisel's baby is crying in the background, and must be tended. Finally, Balkor forgot to grab some Soothing V potions and is recalling back to his plot to get those. So, even though the "event" was scheduled for the top of the hour, it's likely closer to the close of the hour before they actually get on-site for whatever is needed (I'm talking hunting or crafting).

Adhoc group? Come on, get real. You'll be luck, if you advertise on MarketPlace or some other channel, to get someone to join you, and this is presupposing the taker is of the appropriate disposition (I.E. Right level, able to handle stress situations, has at least some rudimentary tactical skills, isn't a "ninja looter"....) and ready to go.

So anyways, a summary is that what you might gain from being in a group, generally comes up short in the final ledger and accounting.

[snickel]

Grouping can be fun, if it is done voluntarily and if the players are reliable and fight well.

In all other cases grouping is a bad thing, yes.

The only fun way of grouping out of necessity I see is to fight against a special event mob.

I myself usually hunt for my components alone. That way i can decide when to hunt and when to craft and do not have to implore other players to join me in a hunt that gives them nothing but XP.

When I am in a crafting frenzy, i don't want to hunt. In the present, the occasional player who sends me a tell to invite me to a hunt and is refused takes it well and in good spirits. But that mood would change, I bet, if the player really needed someone to hunt with. And I would feel bad declining these invitations.

This would take a lot of the joy out of this game for me. I feel it would take my freedom away and make it a game of obligations.

[Peaches]

This game is after all, a MMO. It's expected that some mobs or events would require cooperation between players.

In the Nadia thread, one gets the strong sense that many vets and new players alike don't want to consider simple grouping to gather comps or forms. Many seem to feel that we should all be able to easily get all techs gear with little to no risk. Or they seem to feel this is a solo game and there should be no need to gather a group to hunt anything.

Now, excepting the one poster that seems to have a strong need to challenge any of my posts, as if they were a personal afront to this player, Realize that I am NOT talking about "forced grouping"

I am taking about how any of us can, with a bit of effort, get any comps that drop to make our gear fully teched. Vets have all the gear they need. New players from tier 1-4 is where the issues arise. The truly simple answer is to gather a group and go out and hunt till you have all the comps you need. Yes, this could take a few days, but that is also true for vet players even if they are gathering money to take the easy road and buy them.

SO please explain to me why THIS method is such an unpleasent method to consider.

Anyone can post to the boards, and other posts made by other players, and should be able to do so, without being singled out for their posts, named or not. If you have a problem with a poster, please take it directly to pm with the poster, not here on the boards. Thank you

Now, my input on this subject, is that premerge, grouping was an everyday thing. The gump for searching for a group was quite effective. And it worked. However, after premerge , that all changed. And I can't quite put my finger on it. I believe the largest culprit to this change was the large amount of powerleveling that went on. There is no easy answer to fix this type of problem, but the dev team had to do something, and it definately changed the dynamics of the game as far as grouping goes. I don't know any suggestions that I can give, to bring back grouping, but I sure do hope the dev team can come up with some nifty plans to get grouping going again.

[C`gan]

I'm a builder. I group. It's not likely I'll be hunting much of anything since I'm only a level 21 warrior (YES, I actually got to 21. May the cardiac arrests begin!). More often than not, I talk to one of my guild's component hunters when I need something of the next tier, or the person crafting whatever it may be might have a spare this or that they let me have or I may buy. They have their fun, I have mine. And THAT'S what this is all about.

[Hoberton]

Actually, the experience is much better if you group. Sure you get less exp per kill, but you kill a lot faster which means that you actually level faster.

This only works if the one you are grouped with is very close to your own adventure rating.

Example: I have an adv. rating of 114 and I was grouped with another that has an adv. rating of 64. We went out to hunt the T4 Blights in the WD. We killed the first Blight. xp for me was 140, for her xp was 150. We seperated (not grouped) and I was just healing her and the next T4 Blight she killed, 5k xp. I killed one to see what I would get on the same level Blight, 3k xp. Something is wrong with this and no wonder no one groups anymore.

[Kulamata]

There was a set of changes instituted a few months after release that gave bonuses to grouping; worked out with an ingame group, statistics derived, etc etc. Careful job.

Later it was felt that the bonuses were too great, and severe restrictions were placed on grouping experience. One of the major examples of inadequate balance testing, and over-reacting with the nerf axe. Very unfortunate, as it runs counter to the strong community themes of the game.

[Valornyx]

To me it seemed that the "group-nerf" really only effects players with big differences in their levels (as mentioned by someone previously).

The biggest problem that I have is in the counter-group culture which has developed. If there were people continually petitioning for a "L10-15 healer to join a L13 dragon and fight some sand beetles", I suspect that more people would come to see it as being part of the game.

When I am working on my lower level characters, I often inquire if anyone wishes to join in, and get no replies.

If I am out hunting something and run into a similarly levelled character, I often ask if they want to team up and do so. I have rarely run into ninja looters or people who act inappropriately.

Now it is true that I have been playing this game for a long time, and can tell inexperienced players exactly what I want them to do and why, but in this way experienced is passed on - rather than having to be learned the hard way.

No, there should be no requirement to group. But a lot of the time, people that I do group with, I tend to find /telling me the next time they're on "Hey do you want to go for a hunt?".

It was common in the pre-hoard drops days to have dragons advertising for a blacksmith to work with. Nowadays, although getting the 250k hoard is easier than it ever was before, it is more often "OMG - I never use my gold rage or silver strike!! they use too much hoard".

I don't know what the solution is - but maybe in a similar way to creating a NPA channel and encouraging people to ask questions, we can create a new culture of new players grouping together.

If people start grouping before they become entrenched in a guild and only see the guild as a source of potential hunting partners, maybe the culture can be changed.

my 0.02c

[Tigris]

Very unfortunate, as it runs counter to the strong community themes of the game.

...and took a lot of the fun out of the game. If no one wants to group, where's the community? Dead. If no one wants to be social, why is it an MMO? It's not. Horizons isn't an MMO anymore. It's just an RPG. Horizons in it's inception was attractive to me because it encouraged people to work together I play an MMO to do stuff... with people... not a computer. Now that aspect has been effectively destroyed, and with it much of my desire to play.

All that's left now are the people obsessed with getting 100 in every school. If powergaming is all that's important now, then those of us who play an MMO to do stuff with others will have to find somewhere else to play. I never thought TG would destroy the game by going contrary to the purposes they set forth in the game's design. Pretty sad, really.

[Dhalin]

I'd be a lot more willing to group if they'd fix the Hate/Aggro management problems. Mobs right now have absolutely no... what's the word for it... logic or method in which they choose whom to attack, EXCEPT, Levels. If you have a Lv49 with a Lv50, a good 80% of the time, the Lv49 is going to be the tank. Hands-down. This kills a pair of dragons trying to group becuase you have ONE instant heal per 5 minutes per dragon, and ONE good breeze per five minutes per dragons. The rest are so-so healing and will not support the dragon being forced to tank 80% of the time just becuase they happen to be one or more levels lower than the other.

I've noticed this countless times with my GF and I trying to group. The mobs constantly attack her, or they constantly attack me, which causes horrendous downtime. If there were actual real Abilities that didn't have such long recast timers and wear off so quick, we could spread out the aggro a bit so we can have less downtime, but nooo.... half of the time we almost die because a mob will get so glued on her or me that a Gold Rage + Silver Strike + Ravage + Galewind + Instant Heal won't even pull the stupid thing off her when she's doing nothing but meleeing normal hits.

If only Tulga would FIX the stupid Mob Aggro/Hate system, grouping would be a LOT better. Let tanks, Tank. Give us more Aggro/Hate management abilities and I think you'd see people grouping more often. I know I'd love to group more with my GF if I could actually Tank the stupid things without them being glued on her because she's 1 level lower than I am. Kinda a stupid reason for a mob to single someone out..

--Dhalin

[Solanaceae]

Dhalin, some of the problems you're listing are due to the fact that dragons are based on a melee damage dealer template as a class. I consider tanks to be a character that wields a shield and sacrifices damage output for defensive abilities.

Unfortunatly the schools you would typically find associated with defensive "tank" type play like paladin are missing; there's no real way to draw a mob's attention with any kind of reliability. Instead we're stuck with the relativly useless abilities like menacing presence, interpose and protectorate which are all situationally useful but don't actually solve the problem of needing to draw and hold aggro, leading to the well known "dancing mob" phenomena.

The problem is rooted in the fact that mobs appear to have the following attack priorities in a group:

1. Attack the person with the lowest adventure rating. It is pretty annoying going up and dropping a goldrage on a golem while out crafting with a friend and having the golem consistantly beeline to them, just because they are a few adventure levels lower than I am.

2. Attack whoever uses a heal. It is equally annoying to be in a group and be attacking away, and lose aggro on my mob just because someone is group used a heal that does more healing than one of my attacks.

3. Attack whoever is damaging me the most, maybe. When grouped with people of exactly the same rating and not using any big heals, a balance of aggro seems to be maintained. Well, until mobs start focusing entirely on one player in the group, for no apparent reason.


When you get down to it, groups for functional purposes don't really work out that well. Instead the functionality has been reduced mostly for me to chat channel and a way to keep track of where people are in the world.

[Vlisson]

whats the use of a group?

1) to have fun with friends
2) to get easier/faster exp than alone
3) fight higher mobs
4) dont die too much

if you are a high lvl you dont really need need a group for point 2/3

point 1 is very difficult because friends dont have all the same lvl/rating like you and the aggro system frustrates the "weaker" ones in the group

i look forward to the lvl progression 101+ and think there wont be much groups too

who as rating 120 wants to group with a rating 180 to fight rating 130 mobs? only if point 1 hits (fun with friends)

[Krystine]

I enjoy group hunting just for fun, but go solo when I'm after xp or comps. Grouping for construction is great and we had some good groups when working on the fortifications. If a player needs help with a quest I'll group with them. I don't group with folks just to help them lvl. It all depends on the purpose. Often some of us will be in a "group" so we can see when others lvl and congratulate them and chat, but we are all off doing out own thing.